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  #51  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:10 PM
sniper sniper is offline
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Welll...I am in no way an "expert", have never, and never hope to have to shoot another human in anger, but I DO love to shoot, and have learned a few things, I hope.

In the late /70s, when I lived in California, two Highway Patrol officers stopped a man mountain like the OP described. He jumped from his pick-up with a 12 gauge shotgun in his hands, yelling; " I got the blood of Jesus in my veins", and started to draw down on an officer.

The CHP officers were carrying 357 Magnums then, (no info about the ammo) and they shot him 12 times! He lived to be tried and convicted. That had to hurt!

A friend of mine, also a CHP officer, carried a Walther PPK .380 as back up, and off duty.

Shot placement is primary, and PRACTICE is next! I do not shoot full snort .357s well, so I have settled on several loads that I think may give me a chance of survival, should the unthinkable become necessary.
1. Remington .38 +P SWCHP rounds, the cognoscenti say it has been decreased in power since the days when many departments used it. "Oooold technology", and therefore suspect! (?)

2. My carry ammo is the Speer 38 Spl +P 135 gr short barrel load, which the NYPD seems to have found very acceptable. Speer opines I should get ~920 fps from my 4" barrel. I may flirt with the Hornady offerings "just to see." Major U.S. manufacturer, no "Boutique or furrin' ammo." Except for .22 LONG Rifle, but that's just me.
My next purchase will be any major U.S. brand of 38 or 357 full Wadcutter, providing I can get decent accuracy out to 50-75 yards. ~ 850 fps, full Meplat, leaves major energy in the target, lower recoil, and I own several Lewis Lead Removers of proper caliber. I have not found it a problem to carry my full-sized revolver, but am seriously thinking about a 3" J frame for evenings out.

I will load commercial cast or plated bullets for fun & practice, loaded to ~ the same velocity/recoil impulse for as little transition from practice to the real world as possible.

As far as shouting"I HAVE A GUN:LEAVE ME (us) alone!...If it comes to that, I want it to be a very large surprise to anyone with hostile intent!

My considered opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

Last edited by sniper; 10-11-2018 at 05:24 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10-13-2018, 10:26 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
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I carry my Beretta PX4 Sub Compact in 9mm IWB all Spring , Summer and most of the Fall till around the first frost when heavier jackets tend to be the norm in my area ..

Then switching to my Sig P229 Legion in 40 or my S&W Compact in 40 for carry during the colder winter months .. The extra power will penetrate the heavier coats and jackets and other multiple layers of clothing worn during the below freezing weather here during the winter ..

I do add an extra bit of time in the winter shooting the groin and head and neck areas when I practice !!
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  #53  
Old 10-14-2018, 10:53 AM
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For all my 38's, I've gone back to the old FBI load, or as close as I can get. 158 grain semi wad cutter hollow point, or semi jacketed HP's. From the You Tube vids I've seen, expansion's good and penetration's adequate, (for a standard pressure 38spl). A box of 50 sells for around the same price as a 20rd box of the latest & greatest +P SD ammo, and I don't have to worry about +P pressure in my older wheelguns. One man's choice/opinion, you understand.
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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I bet if you put a couple in the pelvic cavity and one in the face, you can stop the fight. Most people, even those wearing armor, can usually be perforated in the pelvic region. Many useful targets there, if you catch my drift, may even immobilize them. Plus, on the drawstroke, it’s one of the first targets to see the front site.
But you do you. I’d feel vastly under gunned with a 5 round snubby, especially with today’s roving youts.
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2018, 01:04 PM
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The PERFECT round for EVERYTHING is a hard idea to work on, because it does not exist. Most people go for a 85% target and don't worry too much about the outliers. However, it must be acknowledged that outliers to occur, and by the time you have to actually whip it out and pull the trigger the odds have gone sideways on you already. You have to go with what seems reasonable and appropriate for you and your situation. If you get a body builder on angel dust you have a problem no matter what unless you are carrying an elephant gun. If you are attacked by a large pack of feral dogs and you have a J-frame with one reload, you have a problem. Life is sometimes complex.
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  #56  
Old 10-14-2018, 01:06 PM
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I too am still learning the ropes with firearms. I can't answer your question but I can offer this experiment I performed with a heavy jacket. Granted, I didn't cover up the front.

I'm also of the opinion that there are too many factors to actually know what the perfect round/caliber/firearm will be. You pays your money and takes your chances.

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  #57  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:01 PM
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From the Knoxville News Sentinel: "Pedigo did not go peacefully, pointing a gun at Richardson and fellow agents. Richardson shot Pedigo five times. The medical examiner survived, blinded in one eye" I knew Randy Pedigo after he had been shot 5 times by 9mm hollow point bullets. He was a very large man, say 350 lbs or more. The 5 rounds did stop him, which, after all, was the intention. He told me he had been hit in one eye, lost all the teeth on the opposite side to another bullet, hit once on the chest, once in the stomach and in one arm. In looking him up for this response, it appears he has committed suicide. I guess the moral of this (if there is one) don't get overconfident in your 9,
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  #58  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:06 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
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What's wrong with having your magazines loaded with alternating loads, like HP-HP-Ball-HP-HP-Ball-HP-HP-Ball, etc?
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  #59  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:35 PM
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Sorry folks. Another account said Randy had been shot 7 times. Here is the bulk of a account given in court when Pedigo was trying to collect disability insurance because of injuries from being shot. You may find this interesting, or maybe not. We seldom hear from the person who was shot.

From. the News Sentinel: Randall Pedigo was a physician in the Knoxville, Tennessee, area and had served for many years as the county medical examiner.   Additionally, he was a recognized firearms expert and gun collector who had previously offered courses to the Knoxville Police Department on firearms' topics.   By June 21, 1994, however, word had filtered to law enforcement officials that Pedigo had drugged and molested a teenage boy at the doctor's condominium.1  On June 22, therefore, officers of the Knoxville Police Department and the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation arrived at the condominium to ask Pedigo to accompany them to police headquarters for questioning.   Originally, the officers were willing to allow Pedigo to follow them in his own Ford Bronco but, after discovering a loaded shotgun in that vehicle, insisted that the physician would be required to accompany them to the station.   Pedigo then became visibly nervous and, after ascertaining that the police had neither an arrest warrant nor a search warrant with them at that time, stated that he intended to change out of his hospital scrubs into other clothing before departing.
The doctor did allow Agent Steve Richardson and other law enforcement personnel to stay with him as he readied himself.   After dressing, Pedigo grabbed a pair of shoes and, after bypassing other chairs, attempted to sit down on a couch to tie his shoes.   Before he could do so, however, a Knoxville police officer spotted a snub-nosed revolver sticking out from under a pillow on the couch and removed the weapon from Pedigo's reach.   The plaintiff then began to stall his departure, insisting that he be allowed to check the locks on the back door and the power switches on the coffee pot.
As the officers finally exited from the condominium and Pedigo feigned to be locking the front door behind himself and them, the plaintiff darted back into his residence and slammed the front door on the police.   Richardson yelled for Pedigo to stop and hit the door twice to open it, fearing that Pedigo would attempt to destroy evidence at the alleged crime scene.
According to Richardson's later testimony at trial, when he re-entered the residence and proceeded to the lower level of the dwelling, he saw Pedigo reach into a chair cushion.   He yelled at the plaintiff to stop and to raise his hands above chair level.   Instead, Pedigo pulled a gun from the chair, faced the agent, and extended his arms with both hands on the weapon in a police grip.   At that time, fearing for his own safety, Richardson began firing his own gun and struck Pedigo seven times with gunshots before the plaintiff dropped his weapon.   The parties stipulated at trial that, as a result of the shooting, Pedigo is now unable to practice surgery, that he has lost much of the use of his right hand, and that he has had his right eye removed.
The plaintiff offered a radically different account of the shooting.   Although he did corroborate some of Richardson's testimony concerning the events of June 22, 1994, he maintained that when the agent re-entered the condominium, he (Pedigo) was contemplating suicide and had a gun raised to his temple and his back turned to the law enforcement official.   He denied hearing Richardson yell instructions to him and claimed instead that he immediately felt what seemed to be a hard shove on his right shoulder before losing consciousness and collapsing into a pool of blood.
In an effort to corroborate his account of the shooting, Pedigo also attempted to testify at trial concerning his theories involving the entry and exit wounds he suffered.   The district court rebuffed that attempt, however, ruling that such testimony by the plaintiff was in the nature of expert testimony and the plaintiff had not given the requisite notice to the defense that he would be providing such opinion evidence.
Additional testimony was offered by Dr. Clellum Blake, a forensic pathologist who was accepted by the district court as an expert witness.   Blake emphatically rejected Pedigo's account of the shooting, testifying unequivocally that the wounds received by the plaintiff and the damage done to Pedigo's weapon during the shooting indicated that the doctor's arms and hands had to have been extended straight out from the front of his body at the time the shots were fired by Agent Richardson.   Furthermore, Blake surmised that, “without question,” Pedigo had two hands on the gun during the initial stages of the confrontation.   Blake had no doubt that the plaintiff was pointing his gun at Richardson when Richardson shot him and that the wounds to the plaintiff's hands and arms occurred first, the injuries to the torso and back were suffered next as Pedigo turned and spiraled from the initial injuries, and the head wounds were inflicted last as the doctor was falling to the floor.
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  #60  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:38 PM
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So many things. The first being that if one is useful, the other is not, and half your cartridges suck.

Seriously, this is the most overblown thread ever.
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  #61  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:53 PM
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Default For one thing.....

....I will fire until the threat is down. One of them shots is going to go deep.

Looking at the Lucky Gunner site Some Federals and the Hornady 158 grain penetrated around 20 " or more. I'd take that over something that is guaranteed to over penetrate a normal sized person.
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Old 10-17-2018, 11:08 PM
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Worked for a Captain that carried a Browning P-35 9mm.
He loaded his magazines alternate 9mm FMJ and 9mm JHP (every other round was a JHP).
Perhaps he was overly cautioned ?
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  #63  
Old 10-18-2018, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithpride View Post
I bet if you put a couple in the pelvic cavity and one in the face, you can stop the fight. Most people, even those wearing armor, can usually be perforated in the pelvic region. Many useful targets there, if you catch my drift, may even immobilize them. Plus, on the drawstroke, it’s one of the first targets to see the front site.
But you do you. I’d feel vastly under gunned with a 5 round snubby, especially with today’s roving youts.
The avg ccw or leo can barely hit COM, so calling a pelvic or headshot, under duress, yeah not gonna happen for maybe 75% of those carrying a gun.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:21 PM
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Since Ohio approved CC in '04, I have not changed brands or types of my carry ammunition.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:33 PM
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If in doubt. Just shoot him in one ankle first. Then on the other. See where it goes from there. Even if you're using a 5 shooter you'll still have 3 rounds left.

And... you can always retreat after. It's not like he's going to run after you.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:14 PM
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WOW I'm late to the party! I have no issue with FMJ in a carry gun. Bad guys will take up cover when the rounds start to fly. You may need to shoot through a chair, sofa, drywall, hollow core door, window, table. I don't care how big and bad someone thinks they are when rounds are going off everyone is looking for cover. It isn't Hollywood!
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:52 PM
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^^^

Including the neighbors as the FMJ over penetration will be more problem.

Most SD encounters occur within 10 feet and your seriously concerned about shooting through doors and furniture! Seriously! You will be in jail if you are shooting through a door without seeing and identifying the threat. A lawyer will eat you alive. How much of a threat was the person if they are on the other side of a door?
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:41 PM
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It doesn't matter what you carry, or what you carry in it or how you carry it. There is aways a scenario that one can come up with in which they can say it isn't the right "package". There is no perfect "package".
As they taught in rookie school, there is always someone out there better then you.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:02 PM
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I am going to double dip here. I very much like the little air-weight for carry. I also like the Federal FTX micro, a +P made for snubbies. I am old and skinny, and have shot my air-weight until the light weight and double action only have almost ceased to be a problem. I am a great fan of practice with ones carry gun, and load.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:50 PM
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My recommendation is that you do some research, starting with Greg Ellifritz' Active Response website. He occasionally features discussions on .38 Special defense loads. Another good source is Lucky Gunner, which you can find on You Tube. Or jump over on Glock Talk and ask Massad Ayoob on his GATE thread. I would not carry FMJ in a .38 Special (or anything off the range). FMJ, even if it does not over penetrates, makes little holes. If you are concerned about consistent performance, the 158 grain SWCHP - the old FBI-touted duty load, is probably a good all-round choice. My FBI ballistics data is old, but I seem to recall the Bureau, in the early 90s, preferred over penetration to under penetration. That was why they ended up selecting heavy subsonic bullets in every handgun load (.38 Sp - Federal 147 gr. Hydra Shok +P+, 9mm - 147 gr. Hydra Shok and later Ranger and Gold Dot G2, .40 S&W - Federal 165 gr. Hydra Shok before 165 gr. Gold Dot and then 165 and 180 gr. Ranger, 10mm - 180 gr., 45 ACP - 230 gr. Hydra Shok and then 230 gr. Golden Sabre). Not once did they authorize FMJ cause it penetrated better. Again, go look at Greg Ellifritz' site, and also search You Tube as someone made an outstanding video presentation summary of his data based on real world use of force.

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Old 10-21-2018, 05:09 PM
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I'm not trying o be disrespectful, but to me, the most important part of defensive shooting against one or two assailants is the ability to control your firearm and put 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or as many as you have "on the assailant(s)".

If you do, the fight will be over 9 times out of 10. Just like the muscular but fat big guy is a 1 of 10, getting into a gunfight is one in ???? and needing FBI spec ammo is kind of beside the point if you don't hit anything if and when it happens.

Train to hit the target under stress, and realize that lots of the hype about self-defense round knock-down efficiency is about selling expensive ammo....Sorry.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:23 PM
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For a guy that size, practice on putting one in his coconut, problem solved!
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Old 08-28-2020, 05:21 PM
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Default Placement under duress - multiple shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABPOS View Post
This is going to sound all over the place. But maybe you guys can help make sense of it.....

I was in line at the Pharmacy and there was a guy there that was just huge. But not in a only fat kind of way. Not a body builder either. But in a, used to be bad to the bone but getting older kind of way. He was may be 35-40 and just looked like had a hard life. And even a bit sketchy so my defense meter was up. He was probably harmless and such but I've been burned before in the past just assuming the best in everyone around me. So I've become more wary. Anyways.... Not that I was profiling or anything. I was just being cautious. But what struck me was his size. His upper torso was just really big. I'm guessing if he lifted up his arms, side to side would been more than 24" and with his shoulders / arms down, a heck of a lot more. All of a sudden it just got me thinking about penetration.

Furthermore, it struck me that all the "viable" tests are done with gel and sometimes denim but if you're shooting at a torso, the likelihood of you hitting bone right off the bat is very good. And head shots too obviously.

And then to add insult to injury, it's starting to look a lot like... Well this year has been a weird year but suffice to say, winter is coming. And up here, it gets real cold a lot. So people wear thick jackets.

And I'm just like... a little overwhelmed by in a real life scenario in winter, if my .38's out of a snubby would actually work.

I think the answer is yes. And it's not the first time I've had this perspective but honestly, I want a round that is going to penetrate. WELL. A lot more well than everybodie's insistence on 12-18" sweet spot. Heck, I'd rather it lean towards 24". Cuz if it hits a bone, it's going to slow it down and it's not going to penetrate as deeply as it does in the tests of just gel. At least that's what I think.

But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442. Some day I'd like a steel J frame, but money is tight. And beyond that, most of the +p's are rounds that will open up and will just slow down penetration anyways..... If I was going to shoot +p, I'd almost rather have a FMJ +p.

But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. And maybe try to find some of the hotter FMJ rounds. I'm not really sure what that would be, because usually the FMJ stuff is loaded for practice and range. So they're not usually all that hot. The PMC and Winchster I've shot seem to fall into a pretty mild felt recoiling round. On the other hand, if they penetrate a lot better than any of the HP rounds, than it's kind of a win win.

So, if any of you guys have chronographed FMJ rounds with the same intent, to see what might be the hotter of them, I'm all ears. I'm also open to hearing your opinions. I know I can be kind of neurotic about this stuff and my thinking is sometimes off. And I understand WHY rounds are designed to not penetrate too far. I realize one that goes through a person could harm someone else. And I get that. But I feel like an FMJ round isn't likely to go through two sets of ribs and still be sailing out. In fact, I just watched a Paul Herrel video where he uses a set up to simulate a torso with ribs and oranges and pigs ears for skin. Etc. And none of the standard pressure rounds went through the T shirt on the back side. Although he did not test FMJ's. Just Hornady 125 XTP, 110 Critical Defense and one other load......

Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.
Look at it from a hunter's point of view. I've shot deer with a 45, right through the lungs and heart, that kept going, one more than a half mile, which turned and came back toward me before finally succumbing to loss of blood. Astounding.

I made that shot *not* in a stressful situation. And my son? He shot one twice with a 45 SIG at about 15 yards that we never recovered.

The only lesson here is that there is no "sure thing." One shot is no promise of desired result from any caliber. The old saying is, "If you shot a perp with a *handgun* and he stopped? It's because he wanted to."

So ... don't rely on just one shot. Don't wait and see if he continues. If you have the capability to put a second, third, fourth round into the perp, do it -- shoot until you know the threat is down, that he/she has no more interest in or capacity to harm you. Period.

Your big old lug at the pharmacy? He's probably way bigger than a deer. And clothed. But he might stop if he just *sees* the gun. Cool. Any caliber would have worked.

Or maybe he is shot and decides he don't want to get shot some more. ... Almost any caliber will do that.

Or he keeps coming. Then he will likely keep coming no matter the caliber you use unless you make tossed salad out of his central nervous system inside his brain pan or blow out his spinal cord.

The bigger the caliber the better and the hotter the load provide a potential for greater damage, sure, with a corresponding increase in *potential* to stop the threat. If you hit something vital that stops the threat. It's actually hitting something not only vital but critical to continuing to be a threat that's the key. And under duress, that often means firing more than one shot.

A .22 that hits at least once is better than a 10mm that misses repeatedly.

So if 38 is what she feels comfortable shooting, awesome. Emphasize practice that involves emptying that thing until the threat is clearly over. If it's a .22, it's especially important to be prepared to just keep pulling the trigger -- and get some, let's just say, "higher up on the target" when there's an opportunity.

My concern as a boyfriend/husband/brother/father of a woman is only that she not carry a round so powerful she can't keep it on target or closes her eyes to shoot it (My wife is right now carrying a 9mm Shield. She hates her compact Ruger .380, so no, we don't want that in her purse. But she's so much, much more confident carrying her Taurus .22, I have no problem when she opts for that. It's up to her which she feels most comfortable with for EDC. I just feel better that she *always* carries and practices getting to it, that it's not in the bottom of her purse. After all, she may have to use it to protect *me*).

As always, it's about "stopping" the threat, not really about killing him/her. In most cases (what is it, 97%?), just presenting a weapon stops the threat. If not, and the first shot drops 'em, great. If not, just keep pulling the trigger -- whatever caliber in whatever platform that you use. It's better than firing the hottest round in the biggest bore you think has the most "stopping power" -- and completely missing.

As for what *you're* loading in *your* pistol? Dude. Dudn't really matter. I opt for hollow points in my .357 and .40 because I don't want to *over penetrate*. I want them to expand and transfer all their energy to the perp. That said, guess what -- they probably still will. Deer I've shot with my .357, the stupid high-velocity gold dots just sizzle their way right through them, leaving a pencil hole. I've never gotten the touted expansion from them. My 40s, the deer I shot with one, same thing. Through and through, no great expansion.

And in my 45? I go with cheap, factory-made, 230 grain FMJ because *I* am confident there really isn't that much justification in changing to exotic loads for that round.

Is that the *average* experience. Hell no. But... it *does* happen. How in the world can you really expect a bullet to perform in a given gun fight the way you saw it perform on ballistic gelatin? What difference does the chronograph make in real-life situations?

You can't know. You can't predict.

Don't sweat the little things. Just... carry!

Last edited by jfbradfield; 08-28-2020 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 08-29-2020, 01:49 PM
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Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads.....  
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I can and always will refer to Tim's Technical Articles on his Buffalo Bore website. Very informative and free of charge

AMMUNITION FOR "SELF DEFENSE"

CONCERNS OF BULLET OVER-PENETRATION IN CIVILIAN SHOOTINGS
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Old 08-29-2020, 05:00 PM
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First, before you take another step: Buy and read "In Defense of Self and Others . . . Issues, Facts & Fallacies -- The Realities of Law Enforcement's Use of Deadly Force Third Edition", by Patrick and Hall. While it is most directed at LE issues, it is all good background information. There is an excellent chapter on the realities of ballistics (I think it is chapter 4).

You also need to study the reality of bad folks - it ain't TV. As the late Pat Rogers, a friend of mine said: "Bad guys are bad guys, no matter their plumbing, their accent or how they came out of the paint shop." - Pat Rogers (5/9/1946 – 5/4/2016) on sound safety practices and how they don't vary by the looks of the person with whom one is interacting (11/18/2013). RIP, Pat. We are diminished. As another friend said later, also a fellow named Pat and an experienced cop: "They don't think like us. You're using your window or perspective on the world and overlaying it on what you think criminal scum should think. This is dangerous. Never imagine that they think like you: that they have compassion, that your life means anything at all, that children shouldn't be raped and old people beaten. There are monsters among us, not from Hollywood nor Steven King's mind, but demons in skin suits. They look like us, make no mistake, but they are not us." Sgt. Pat A. on criminal mindset and behavior, 3/31/17. If you don’t understand this, you have no business commenting on criminal justice issues. This why Doc Roberts, the leading expert on terminal ballistics today teaches to concentrate on mindset and skill first. Only then, worry about projectile characteristics.

The "Miami" shootout had several flaws in planning/tactics, none in courage and will. For most of us, the correct answer to a problem is to be somewhere else if you think there is going to be a violent conflict. Sometimes, or for some of us, that's not an option - in which case, taking a pistol is a poor choice. You need a long gun, usually a rifle.
Missing is a far greater problem than over-penetration, and MUCH more likely to cause collateral problems, both tactical and legal. Proficiency is not an option.
A J frame is a distinctly sub-optimal choice for lots of reasons. I only carry one if I have no alternative. In .38, generally wadcutters and 158 grain SWC are the best, most cost effective choice. I want that square front and good cutting action. I apply this in revolvers generally.

A good rule regarding equipment that was taught in my academy over 30 years ago: When buying tactical gear, it has to work adequately well in all reasonably foreseeable circumstances. Wifey does not care for even light .38s in a DS? Hits with a .22 that she shoots well are far better than misses with something else she does not like or shoot well. Are there modern .38 JHPs that should do ok from a snubby? Yeah. Are they enough better than the more affordable WC/SWC to be worthwhile? Unlikely.
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Old 08-29-2020, 05:16 PM
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Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads..... Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads.....  
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OP's worried about massive, tough opponents? Huge people as big as refrigerators who can do you harm?



Why do y'all think I'm the outlier who carries 124 grain NATO FMJ in all self-defense weapons?

But everybody laughs at me.
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