Armed in America: It**™s not easy being a retired cop

[oink]

I hope this is OK to post. An opinion article in Policeone.com that I thought was worth reading. Nothing new or earthshaking but somewhat interesting. "No matter how much training, experience and proven good judgment you have, some people will never be comfortable with an old sheepdog being armed":

Armed in America: It’s not easy being a retired cop:
How armed citizens could stop active shooters

It kinda goes along with my feelings of not carrying the most minimalist possible EDC but having something "a little more".

[dscampbell]

Agree


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[Eric300]

Well, we all know that you can't be too 'thin skinned' if you want to last in this profession. And you sure as hell can't take things (too) personally. The way I see it, the less people who know I'm a LEO, or in this case, a Ret. LEO, the better. If I have to go to a medical facility for a SCHEDULED appointment, I leave my 'go bang' stuff in my truck. No need to stir the pot, and I'm not that paranoid to a point where I have to have a firearm attached to my side very waking moment of the day. 28 years was enough. I've been retired for almost 5 years now (going to be 61 yoa next March), and haven't had any issues whenever and/or wherever I carry. "Don't show it, and don't let anyone know it," I always say. Good luck, Check your six, and stay safe out there.

[weatherby]

Perhaps not but it sure is a lot easier in a lot of areas than for us regular folks.

[oink]

Originally Posted by Eric300

If I have to go to a medical facility for a SCHEDULED appointment, I leave my 'go bang' stuff in my truck. No need to stir the pot, a...... "Don't show it, and don't let anyone know it," I always say.

I generally leave my gun and mags in the car for Doc. appointments mainly for the reasons stated in the article. Sometimes I'll have it with me (and yeah I guess I'm that paranoid), but only if I'm wussing out and have a little bitty gun and won't be disrobing. For today's appointment I left it in the truck. It was with the Urologist so.... And, by the way, 7 years post RRP, with cancer in the margins, I'm still at 0 on the PSA. Happy, happy, happy!

[BAM-BAM]

How does it inspire trust in anyone......... when we have a FBI Agent drop his gun doing a back flip while "dancing" in a night club....... then firing it when he picks it up.

Some Hospitals in the City here have metal detectors at the ER entrances..... some also provide (or at least use to) lock boxes.

After the Hospital shooting there are now calls in Chicago to put detectors at every public venue. It was reported that the shooter had a concealed carry permit....True? I don't know!

We now have metal detectors at the theaters (live performances) here in the Burgh..... so you can walk to and from the parking garages blocks away ...... at night; on mostly deserted streets.


Hasn't anyone realized that "Security checks" just back up the crowd and produce a tightly packed "killing field" just outside the entrance to the building or stadium???????????.

[SAFireman]

Time for that author to find a new doc.

My family physician and dentist are both gun guys and are A-Ok to carry in the office for routine stuff.

If the doc dosen't trust me, then why should I trust him/her?

I can see not carrying when you are going to be sedated, or have an altered mental status. Getting the flu shot doesn't count

[les.b]

Thanks for sharing this article. I'm sure that many of us here can absolutely identify with the author. I still carry (almost) every day, and stay certified. And as he points out, "it ain't easy"!!

Best Regards, Les

[haywood]

I would tell the Doc that there is plenty of Doctors that would like to bill my medical insurance. He will not be one of them. Bye.

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

A few comments indicate that trust should be reciprocal. Reasonable, I suppose. More important, IMO, is that the physician in the linked article was stupid. Is it really a good idea to entrust your health care to someone stupid? Even if you yourself are not smart enough to keep your business to yourself?

[ISCS Yoda]

Other than anything else, I make it a point to not remind my doctor that I am a gun person or that I might be armed in his office. He has no need to know, even if he guesses it.....and he is not anti-gun. It's my business, not his.

[LoboGunLeather]

I am reminded of a dental appointment about 35 years ago. It was a weekday so I was working as a plainclothes investigator. Took off my suit coat and hung it on the door hook, then sat down in the chair with my S&W Model 19 and handcuffs exposed. This drew some startled looks shared between the dentist and his assistant. I assured them that if they didn't hurt me I would not hurt them. Root canal therapy is never pleasant, but they seemed to work through it as gently as possible.

Still see the doc now and then. We are both retired and live within a few blocks of each other.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

Time for that author to find a new doc.

My family physician and dentist are both gun guys and are A-Ok to carry in the office for routine stuff.

If the doc dosen't trust me, then why should I trust him/her?

I can see not carrying when you are going to be sedated, or have an altered mental status. Getting the flu shot doesn't count

"If the doc dosen't trust me, then why should I trust him/her?"

That is it right there.....

I went to have a follow up X-ray on my busted knee.

Tech kept looking at the picture....I finally spoke up and said, "Ankle holster and a Colt."
Tech sez, "Oh, okay."

.

[rbmac52]

"before the doctor took one look at me or asked me one question, he declared he was “not comfortable” with me being armed."

"Well, I'm not comfortable with you being a doctor. Have a nice day."

[Wise_A]

"Hoplophobia" it's called. It's not that they're scared of you, they're scared of...well, everything.

Take the doctor in the OP article. Because he's a regular person, he probably sees "safe" as an on/off position. And he assumes that because he doesn't see anything he identifies as dangerous, that he's "safe".

When he sees the author's gun, he immediately sees it as a source of danger. OMG! There's nothing stopping the author from drawing the gun and shooting him! This is not safe! And if something isn't safe, then it must be dangerous!

In reality, we know that safety isn't on or off--it's simply some degree of mitigated risk, a degree of threat. We know that there was really nothing stopping the author from killing the good doc with his bare hands and feet, but that he was really unlikely to do that.

See? It's partially a case of them not understanding what safety and danger are, and partially because they so vastly overestimate how safe they are at any given moment.

But hey, it's entirely within that guy's rights not to be comfortable with somebody carrying. To put it in the words of an excellent T-shirt, it's okay to disagree with me. I can't force you to be right.

The other thing is, just because someone is a retired cop doesn't make them "safe" to me. I'm sure you guys knew some reckless individuals on the job. Putting on a badge doesn't make a person perfect. It's not that I don't trust retired cops...I just don't trust them any more than anyone else, which is not a whole lot. If I could spot trouble coming, I wouldn't need to carry in the first place.

[Czechvar]

We worked this out a while back...As far as anyone Medical is concerned, we don’t have any guns because they have no right to ask questions that aren’t directly related to the purpose for our visit. If the appointment is for me, the gear stays home. If I’m accompanying someone to an appointment...Concealed means Concealed. There is no shortage of good Doctors in this area...

[ameridaddy]

Whenever I go to the doc's place, chances are good I'll have to get x-rayed, drop trou, roll around on an exam table, get into contorted, undignified positions, so I empty all my pockets, putting everything (phone, wallet, change, 2 knives, eyeglasses, notepad, spare magazine and EDC into a leather portfolio type briefcase I have. If anyone asks, "I tell them I don't want to drop anything out of my pockets, so everything goes into my man-purse." So far, so good, no other questions after ~ 10 years of this. As far as ready access, push one latch button, an I have access to anything in there, including my EDC. The man-purse always stays very close by me.

[adwjc]

The medical profession kills 7.14 times the number of ALL firearm deaths in the US every year.


That's 250,000 to 35,000.

[steelslaver]

Originally Posted by adwjc

The medical profession kills 7.14 times the number of ALL firearm deaths in the US every year.


That's 250,000 to 35,000.

True, but they do it behind closed doors without those terrible bullets.

[Ziggy2525]

In my state, it’s a “lose your chp license” misdemeanor to carry your firearm into a hospital or emergency room. No posting required. The hospital systems that that own those hospitals also own 99% of the medical clinics and have them posted as no firearms. Here, those signs carry the force of law. When you go to the doc here, the pistol stays in the car or at home.

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

In my state, it’s a “lose your chp license” misdemeanor to carry your firearm into a hospital or emergency room. No posting required. The hospital systems that that own those hospitals also own 99% of the medical clinics and have them posted as no firearms. Here, those signs carry the force of law. When you go to the doc here, the pistol stays in the car or at home.

OK, but the question is really for more firearm-friendly states, like Massachusetts. I usually carry, but plan for a certain amount of undressing. Also, please remember that MRI equipment can fire a cocked-and-locked SERIES 80. Already happened.

[zzclancy]

Originally Posted by Model520Fan

A few comments indicate that trust should be reciprocal. Reasonable, I suppose. More important, IMO, is that the physician in the linked article was stupid. Is it really a good idea to entrust your health care to someone stupid? Even if you yourself are not smart enough to keep your business to yourself?

Remember someone finished last in medical school. I recently went to an Orthopedic Surgery after the visit I decided I wasn't really interested in knee replacements.

[zzclancy]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

In my state, it’s a “lose your chp license” misdemeanor to carry your firearm into a hospital or emergency room. No posting required. The hospital systems that that own those hospitals also own 99% of the medical clinics and have them posted as no firearms. Here, those signs carry the force of law. When you go to the doc here, the pistol stays in the car or at home.

I'm actually not familiar with that can you say which State? How would that carry over to other States?

[spirit4earth]

Originally Posted by oink

I generally leave my gun and mags in the car for Doc. appointments mainly for the reasons stated in the article. Sometimes I'll have it with me (and yeah I guess I'm that paranoid), but only if I'm wussing out and have a little bitty gun and won't be disrobing. For today's appointment I left it in the truck. It was with the Urologist so.... And, by the way, 7 years post RRP, with cancer in the margins, I'm still at 0 on the PSA. Happy, happy, happy!

Congratulations !

[swsig]

Here in good ol' gun-friendly Texas, it is illegal to carry openly or concealed in any medical facility. Thus, in my frequent visits thereto (I'm old), my EDC goes into my vehicle gun vault.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by zzclancy

I'm actually not familiar with that can you say which State? How would that carry over to other States?

Nebraska. If there’s reciprocity, you follow the rules of the state you’re in. If you come East a bit, carry into a hospital or ER, and get caught, it’s a misdemeanor. Not sure the impact on your Colorado license. There’s an exemption if you get injured and brought to an ER for treatment while carrying.

Standalone clinics don’t have the same prohibition as hospitals, but most of the clinics here are owned by hospital systems like CHI (or whatever they’re called now they got bought) and are posted. Signage has the force of law.

Seems like more people are going west from Nebraska to Colorado for that medical marijuana than are coming east to Nebraska for other types of medical treatment.

[white cloud]

Lobo and Keith 44, that was very funny.

Why any state would limit where a retired LEO could carry makes no sense at all to me. I know some retired LEOs. Responsible and with great judgement and lots of experience. I would think it would be a way for law enforcement to extend their reach at very low cost. Fortunately my medical professionals seem ok with me carrying.

[okiegtrider]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

Other than anything else, I make it a point to not remind my doctor that I am a gun person or that I might be armed in his office. He has no need to know, even if he guesses it.....and he is not anti-gun. It's my business, not his.

This right here. Generally, it's not the doc's business, anymore than it's mine whether he's armed or not. If I'm in his office, it ain't to talk guns. I want his opinion, but not about whether I choose to arm myself.

[Sclays]

Just had annual physical last Monday.
Happened to be wearing a Springfield Armory t shirt.
New Dr walked into exam room. Stopped dead in his tracks.
"Just sent a new XDM off to the custom shop....."
Turned out to be a real gun guy.

Life is different in rural America.
Thankfully.

[keith44spl]

A lit'l Doctor's office story........

My daughter was working at a private practice as a bookkeeper.

One day, one of the four doctors working there asked if she had a handgun.
They knew she had a carry licenses, she tells them yes it was in her vehicle.

Go get it the doc says, we got a disgruntled former employee that has called with some threats....

Daughter got a new inside the pant holster, wore it everyday that she worked there after that request.

One of the Doctors there, was my personal physician and she knew I carried in her office.
She and I got along just fine. No problem.

As Sclays said above, things are different rural America.

.

[TX-Dennis]

In Texas hospitals are off limits for legal carry. Of course, the bad guys can still carry theirs.

Doctor's offices are subject to the same laws as anywhere else. They can (and many do) post the state mandated 30.06 and/or 30.07 signs which hold the power of law. Enforcement, though, is limited to asking you to leave if they see a gun, so some may choose to take their chances. If you refuse to leave when asked you may be charged with criminal trespass.

Some, including my eye doc, post no guns signs that do not meet the state's legal standard. I feel okay carrying there. I mean I don't have to undress for an eye exam, right?

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

A lit'l Doctor's office story........

My daughter was working at a private practice as a bookkeeper.

One day, one of the four doctors working there asked if she had a handgun.
They knew she had a carry licenses, she tells them yes it was in her vehicle.

Go get it the doc says, we got a disgruntled former employee that has called with some threats....

Daughter got a new inside the pant holster, wore it everyday that she worked there after that request.

One of the Doctors there, was my personal physician and she knew I carried in her office.
She and I got along just fine. No problem.

As Sclays said above, things are different rural America.

.

I sure hope your daughter recommended that at least one of the four doctors call the Police and report the threat incident to them.

Not to omit mentioning, that your daughter should remind the doctors that she is employed as a "bookkeeper" with the firm... and then proceed to negotiate her newly acquired "armed security" role into her salary?

[jag312]

One of my doctors told me that he used to own an unregistered Madsen M-50. He had to get rid of it because he was afraid it would impact on his Medical license if he got caught with it. He used to have fun with it and really missed it.

[les.b]

My GF's Dentist is the great-great grandson of "Devil Anse" Hatfield. In his waiting room he has framed copies of photos and stories about the Hatfield -McCoy feud, and family history.

He carries....

Just beside the door where you enter the building, he has this sign posted:



Best Regards,mLes

[shouldazagged]

None of my doctors (I have to have several in various specialties, plus my terrific primary) knows I have a concealed carry license or own guns, and none has ever asked.

I like living in a gun-friendly state, but I guess I've also been lucky.

Being eighty-one probably helps. They don't figure a geezer on a walker and oxygen to be a gun guy. Suits me fine.

[Smoke]

All Concentra Urgent Care clinics in Colorado Springs are posted because an armored car guard put a round through a wall while clearing his weapon prior to being weighed for a physical.

After this incident I went to that clinic for a UA. As soon as I walked through the door in uniform I was stopped by the receptionist and told to return to my car and disarm. He didn't even look to see if I was armed.

All it takes is one idiot.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

A lit'l Doctor's office story........

My daughter was working at a private practice as a bookkeeper.

One day, one of the four doctors working there asked if she had a handgun.
They knew she had a carry licenses, she tells them yes it was in her vehicle.

Go get it the doc says, we got a disgruntled former employee that has called with some threats....

Daughter got a new inside the pant holster, wore it everyday that she worked there after that request.

One of the Doctors there, was my personal physician and she knew I carried in her office.
She and I got along just fine. No problem.

As Sclays said above, things are different rural America.

The last medical office I worked in was a pain management clinic which meant that the majority of our patients were on opioids of some kind.

The Physician was obsessed with guns and knew that I was working part time as a security guard. He came into the front office on morning and told me he was perfectly OK with me carrying a gun at work because we had drugs in the office. As soon as he walked out of the office the office manager turned and told me in no uncertain terms that if I ever brought a gun to work I'd be fired immediately regardless of what the doctor said.

Being a security guard the rules for carrying a gun at work are a little bit different but in an office setting there's no way in Hell I'd carry a gun as an agent of the property owner unless it was specifically written into my employment contract and I was specifically covered by my employer's liability insurance and medical insurance and they specifically agreed to cover any legal expenses arising from my use of a gun defending them.

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by swsig

Here in good ol' gun-friendly Texas, it is illegal to carry openly or concealed in any medical facility. Thus, in my frequent visits thereto (I'm old), my EDC goes into my vehicle gun vault.

I'm old too !!

Here in Illinois Hospitals and doctor offices are restricted no carry areas .. One of the reasons I put a gun safe bolted to the floor under my Jeep's passenger seat ..

[Whitwabit]

Originally Posted by shouldazagged

None of my doctors (I have to have several in various specialties, plus my terrific primary) knows I have a concealed carry license or own guns, and none has ever asked.

I like living in a gun-friendly state, but I guess I've also been lucky.

Being eighty-one probably helps. They don't figure a geezer on a walker and oxygen to be a gun guy. Suits me fine.

I would be more worried about an old geezer like you or me to have a weapon then the young adults of today ..

Like you I have various doctor's according to my ailments beside my family dr .. and none have asked wither I have weapons in my home and none have questioned whether I had a Conceal Carry License .. though not at your age for a few more years ..

If they did I would question the reason for the inquiry !!
and its doubtful I would answer !!

[keith44spl]

I'm sure they had all the bases covered........


.

[haywood]

In addition to my first post. I stated that other Doctors would be glad to bill my insurance. I’m lucky that the Doctors own the building and it is not conected to a Hospital or Mental Facility. They are also gun guys. In Ohio you can’t carry in hospitals, mental facilities or anyplace posted. Concealed means concealed my cover some locations but, in most cases I follow the law.

[Donn]

When I go to the doc, my piece is in a lock box, cabled to the seat frame in the truck. I've never been asked the "gun question" by any of the three I visit, not yet anyway, and I've never felt the need to volunteer any info. If any deny service due to my Swiss Army knife, we'll know things have gotten out of hand.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by haywood

...
I stated that other Doctors would be glad to bill my insurance.
...

Total thread derail. I worked the last couple years on a new primary care clinic startup where the docs were under “employment contracts.” Part of their compensation was based on patient load, but for the most part the docs were pretty much removed from scheduling/insurance/billing concerns. It’s a factory. Doc’s see patients.

Not sure what it’s like elsewhere, but around here, except for specialties like reconstructive surgery and opthamology, primary care docs have pretty much ceded control over to business people. The clinic managers will have way more say in decisions like whether concealed carry is allowed than a doc. In the same vein, once you go outside a set of treatment policies, a nurse at an insurance company that in the end reports to a business person may have more say over your treatment than your doc.

Some docs that post here may want to chime in, but that’s how medicine looks to me in 2018.

[WR Moore]

Some years back on another, now defunct site, the subject of the "question" on ownership came up. One of the members was a specialist on medical ethics. His response was that an answer that the question was "a boundary violation" should close the issue. OTOH, you could just pevaricate.

The newest local hospital has a sign on all the entrances that no firearms are permitted. The customary exemption for law enforcement is missing. It'd be interesting if the local Sheriff refused any service calls there on those grounds.

[Dvan34]

I hate to admit it but lately I have had the same thought. It certainly isn't getting any more secure out there with all of the craziness that is sweeping through our nation.Plus the Liberals are just making it more difficult to carry all the time, even limiting ammunition, making it more expensive and more of a hazzle.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by WR Moore

Some years back on another, now defunct site, the subject of the "question" on ownership came up. One of the members was a specialist on medical ethics. His response was that an answer that the question was "a boundary violation" should close the issue. OTOH, you could just pevaricate.

The newest local hospital has a sign on all the entrances that no firearms are permitted. The customary exemption for law enforcement is missing. It'd be interesting if the local Sheriff refused any service calls there on those grounds.

If the doc is asking about gun ownership, the doc could probably care less about your answer. The clinic has either a mandated or reimbursable quality metric based on having asked that question and recording it in the patients EHR.

[BAM-BAM]

You would think that after 17 years "someone" with common sense would realize that putting up a sign banning firearms doesn't seem in the least bit to deter a person who's entering that venue to Commit mayhem, engage in a terrorist act, or possibly murder one or more law abiding folks peacefully gathering there!!


Next thing you know there will be signs banning "Trucks" from the streets, bridges and bike paths of New York, Columbus Ohio, London, Paris and Nice!

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

If the doc is asking about gun ownership, the doc could probably care less about your answer. The clinic has either a mandated or reimbursable quality metric based on having asked that question and recording it in the patients EHR.

My (minimal) experience in the medical field mirrors this. Medical clinics are sausage factories. I was never really connected to the business side of things but I got the distinct impression that most medical practices operate on a very thin profit margin. They want you in and out as fast as possible because the more patients they see the more money they make.

IME the last thing most medical practices want is for a patient to foul up the assembly line. If you present a unique problem they will deal with it in the most expedient manner possible with turning the room being the most important factor.

One of the clinics I worked in was an Orthopedic Surgeon under an HMO. He stayed double booked with a six week waiting list and a full standby list the entire time I worked there. If there was a problem patient they gave notice (a doctor can't just fire a patient he/she is required to give them time to find a new provider) and drop them.

My point is that if you insist on giving the doctor a ration about your second amendment rights his most likely response (regardless of his opinion of the second amendment) is going to be to drop you and if you tell him you'll take your business elsewhere he's going to say "OK" and his assistant will have a standby in your slot before you get your car started.

I don't discuss anything but my current medical needs or The Broncos, The Nuggets or The Rockies with my Doctor.

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by Smoke

My (minimal) experience in the medical field mirrors this. Medical clinics are sausage factories.
...
They want you in and out as fast as possible because the more patients they see the more money they make.
...

The start up I was at had a 3 patient/hr quota for primary care docs (20 min/patient). The time increased to 30 min/patient for chronically ill patients. That was considered a huge win for the docs. Rumor was the national hospital system provider in town had a 5 patient/hour quota (12 min/patient) for their primary care docs. That's 40 patients a day for a doc.

IMO, when people think about a general practice doc being a glamorous job, they might reconsider. It seems to me like high paid drudgery. Working 12 to 14 hours a day, five or six days a week, checking 40 hernias and enlarged prostates (or the female equivalent) pretty much all day, every day. Day in, day out. Yeah, that's the life.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

The start up I was at had a 3 patient/hr quota for primary care docs (20 min/patient). The time increased to 30 min/patient for chronically ill patients. That was considered a huge win for the docs. Rumor was the national hospital system provider in town had a 5 patient/hour quota (12 min/patient) for their primary care docs. That's 40 patients a day for a doc.

In the clinic I worked in that 12 minutes included the time it took for the MA to take vitals, update the chart and turn the room.

Again, the system just isn't designed for any lengthy Dr. Patient interactions especially considering that the odds are the Dr. is already running behind.