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Old 10-12-2018, 12:21 PM
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Default Self defense isn’t an excuse for stupidity

Firefighter-homeowner in Detroit suburb who took a shot at a teenager who knocked on his door asking for directions is on trial for attempted murder and other charges. He’ll be a guest of the state for a very long time.

Black Teenager Shot At After Asking For Directions : The Two-Way : NPR

We all know not to shoot at someone fleeing, right?

Video surveillance is only helpful if you aren’t a screw up like this guy:

Jury sees video of man shooting teen asking for directions
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:33 PM
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That kid was doing nothing wrong. Knocking on a door is not a crime. There was no reason to even brandish the shotgun let alone shoot it.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:48 PM
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Getting shot at for getting lost and asking directions?
Seriously?!?!
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:59 PM
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Getting shot at for getting lost and asking directions?
Seriously?!?!
Yep! The guys wife answered the door and she "freaked" (and screamed) when she saw the black kid on her porch. In My opinion SHE caused her husband to over-react because he probably thought the kid had actually done (or tried) something.

We will find out during the trial I'm sure. Even still...he's going to jail for a looooooong time.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:03 PM
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How well do you think this defense is going to work for the homeowner?

Man testifies at his own trial for shooting at teen asking for directions - Video | WJBK

Hope he’s packed his toothbrush!
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:12 PM
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How well do you think this defense is going to work for the homeowner?

Man testifies at his own trial for shooting at teen asking for directions - Video | WJBK

Hope he’s packed his toothbrush!
Ummm - NO....that defense will do him no good!!!
Also....he was LYING about how the shot happened.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:34 PM
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Zeigler maintained that he believed Brennan was a threat. But Shawn Pace, one of the detectives, showed him the video and asked him to point out where the teenager had shown bad intentions.

Zeigler, according to Pace, “took a big drink of water, and said, ‘I’m tired of being a victim.'”

"I'm tired of being a victim???" Oh boy, that statement will certainly cut him some slack. Yeah, sure.

Zeigler also claimed that he was just going to fire the shotgun into the air as a warning shot, but he slipped. Hmmm. The video sure shows otherwise. The guy takes careful aim and touches it off.

Then, when Zeigler's wife gets on the stand and says, "I saw a black person standing at my door and I screamed..." Yep, that certainly justifies a reason for taking shots at the kid.

Personally, from what we've been told so far, I don't think Zeigler's got a snowball's chance in the sunshine.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:36 PM
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Some people are too stupid to safely own guns.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:53 PM
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Stupidity had little to do with what motivated the Zeiglars.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:02 PM
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The thing that doesn't help the homeowner is that I've read up on the news that he was previously charged in 2004 for discharging a firearm
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:50 PM
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It makes me wonder about the wife. Maybe she just didn't like her hubby much, and knew what buttons to push.

I had a woman set her husband up nicely once to potentially get shot. It was a visit with a child protection social worker investigating concerns about sexual contact with his daughter. He'd done time for raping his grandmother, and he was known to be potentially violent so the social worker requested an officer be present.

He was not home, and after interviewing the mother she was asked to call her husband and have him come home to talk with the social worker. She did so, but neglected to tell him there was also a police officer present.

It was a small town with gravel streets and he worked about 4 blocks away in a repair shop. After she hung up you could hear him roar out of the shop and speed down the street, then slide into the drive way. We'd arrived in an unmarked car, which the wife knew, and the look of anticipation on the wife's face was telling as she stayed by the phone, out of the prospective line of fire. I heard him slam the door on his pickup and then I heard him open his tool box in the bed, so I figured he'd have a tire iron, breaker bar, or similar. Sure enough he came barging through the door, turned the corner and saw a drawn service pistol with no slack left in the trigger.

What followed was comedic genius as he skid to a stop leaned way back on his heels like Wile E. Coyote about to go over a cliff in a Road Runner cartoon, while dropping the raised crowbar over his shoulder and then giving a little wave with the now empty hand and meekly saying "Hi". Not what he expected to find at all. The wife looked really disappointed that he didn't get shot.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:09 PM
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Stupidity had little to do with what motivated the Zeiglars.
Agreed. These people don't appear to be over-endowed with judgment, but the Muse of Stupidity was just along for the ride.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:07 PM
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Update:

The jury just convicted him of attempted murder and assorted other stuff. Bond revoked and in custody.
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:00 PM
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Default This knucklehead should be in jail...

...for a long time. Hardly a surprise...given the scenario...that he was shirtless.

Be safe.
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:45 PM
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We watched that video last night on the news with a WTH was that man thinking???? WRONG ON ALL COUNTS. Why did he bring a firearm to the door???
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:02 PM
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What a fool! What not to do.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:28 PM
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Wifey seems to have helped provoke the situation quite a bit. Has she been released? Of course, there likely isn't much they can do about her screaming.....
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:58 PM
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Very foolish, and convicted by his own words and the video. I don't think he could have done more wrong in his actions. Pretty obvious he was reacting (like a hothead) to the wife's screams.

I wonder why he was giving a statement, anyone with a brain would have had an attorney present.

Interesting that the detective testified about his statement that he was "tired of being a victim" and then neglects to mention that the home had been burglarized three times. Again - where was the attorney that should have been representing this guy, at the questioning and later cross examining the detective's testimony.

I'm surprised they didn't offer this guy a plea bargain for something like Reckless Endangerment. Political pressure?
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:59 AM
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[QUOTE

Interesting that the detective testified about his statement that he was "tired of being a victim" and then neglects to mention that the home had been burglarized three times. Again - where was the attorney that should have been representing this guy, at the questioning and later cross examining the detective's testimony.

I'm surprised they didn't offer this guy a plea bargain for something like Reckless Endangerment. Political pressure?[/QUOTE]

The previous burglaries occurred 10 years ago and were perpetrated by an acquaintance who was caught and imprisoned. Not a fruitful area of examination: the perp wasn’t a threat any longer and the passage of 10 years makes it seem this is all an excuse rather than an explanation.

I’m sure he was a offered a deal, but it certainly involved significant prison time. Sometimes defendants hope for a miracle at trial.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
Firefighter-homeowner in Detroit suburb who took a shot at a teenager who knocked on his door asking for directions is on trial for attempted murder and other charges. He’ll be a guest of the state for a very long time.

Black Teenager Shot At After Asking For Directions : The Two-Way : NPR

We all know not to shoot at someone fleeing, right?

Video surveillance is only helpful if you aren’t a screw up like this guy:

Jury sees video of man shooting teen asking for directions
AS I SEE IT, I CAN HAVE NO EMPATHY FOR THIS SHOOTER ! ! !

THAT YOUNG MAN POSED NO THREAT WHATSOEVER, AS HE RAN FOR HIS LIFE. ITS A MIRACLE THAT HE WAS NOT CUT DOWN BY THE SHOTGUN BLAST......

I HOPE THAT JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED, AT THE CONCLUSION OF THIS TRIAL......
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:51 AM
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Default I don't want to watch the video...

...because it would make me too angry for several reasons.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:05 PM
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Let's presume, for a moment, that we completely buy this guy's story, that the teenager did present himself as a threat. I mean, we don't, but let's just play along.

The guy is still guilty. Everything he did was done after the kid was running away--no longer a threat--from shouldering, to aiming, to firing.

Hell, if I was the prosecutor, I'd have gotten him a lawyer before questioning. One less thing to appeal in an airtight case.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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My take away? Two people afraid of the environment they have chosen to live in. The wife has a couple of screws loose and the husband is a moron. Also they picked and were prepped for testimony by a ****** attorney.

They should have charged the wife for contributing.
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:48 PM
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Absolutely no reason to shoot. Zeigler needs to be locked up.

But:
1) It’s a fact that burglers casing a house will first ring the doorbell to see if the homeowner is there. Especially during the daylight hours. My neighborhood online news letter always reports on “suspicious” looking men who do not live in the neighborhood knocking on doors when most people are at work.

2) The wife started screaming. Why didn’t he immediately leave? Ok, why did the wife even open the door if she was so frightened? I never open my front door to strangers and I can twist most peoples heads off AND I carry a gun.

I have friends that work in emergency rooms. Do you know how many fine young men were doing absolutely nothing wrong when they were shot? “I was just standing there and he shot me.” ER personal don’t even ask anymore, the prisons are full of innocent men.

Rochester Hills is an affluent suburb of Detroit. Anyone who thinks Detroit is a nice town and wish they lived nearby please raise your hand.

I am grateful that this *** is a poor shot, but I am 1000% sick of “Man bites Dog” stories. Stupid racist men like Zeigler are a problem, put him in jail where he certainly belongs.

But the kid wasn’t hit. Why is this bigger news than the geometrically greater number of incidences of young men shot and killed/injured by other young men? Thanks for quoting NPR for fair and balanced reporting of the story. Why is the perps race always the star of the story when he is white and only when the perp is white? I find this far more than offensive.

Good thing the kid wasn’t knocking on doors in Detroit, he’d be dead now.

Lets not lose track of the big picture here. This is a drop of water in the ocean of gun crimes. Stop focusing on the tiny % of these incidents, no reason to assist the enemies of the 2nd Amendment. They never help us.
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:05 PM
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I don't know in this hostile developement of affairs we have now
there are to many idiots that went out and bought guns. They also get CCPs. This is not a gun problem as the Anti's & media
makes it out to be. Most of these situations are caused by uneducated individuals who are borderline mental cases. They are constantly subjected to political scare tatics on the media.
In their world they are victims and they think that gives them the
right to pull a gun. These are the cases that make the news. When a real bad guy gets shot during the commission of crime
it is not reported because it doesn't serve anti agenda. That's why the gang shootings are never news unless bystanders are
shot. The authorities need to stop playing politics and put a stop
to this behavior. From these situations to mass shootings and
gang shootings, examples need to be made of those involved.
The politicians that get away with stirring up racial trouble need
to be held responsible. You can't yell fire in a theater, same laws
should apply to people making violent public statements. People
are getting killed over this stuff and many more will be if the
instigators aren't shutt down. We just had a case a couple cntys
north of us, where a 18yr old just got out of prison for a shooting
he did at 14. He shot a woman & her toddler daughter in the head and cops been a week getting him, in another state. People
like this have no social value and liberal laws put these violent
offenders back on the street. We need to bring back executions.
This would give idiots pause.
head
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:47 PM
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And sometimes I get negative feedback, including here IIRC, for the way I have set up my house to ensure that dumb circumstances that contribute to dumb outcomes are pretty hard to accomplish. 1) Fence with locked gates. No one comes to my door. 2)When it was possible to get to the door and ring the bell, I did not open it - I yelled through it from a position not in line with the door.There is no excuse for opening the door to someone whom you do not know to be legitimate - and darned few are.

As pointed out above, it is pretty common for burglars and home invaders to come to the door that way. This kid MAY OR MAY NOT have been legit, and given the dumb actions described, we will never know. Sound tactics such as the means of addressing the problem I advocate above would have made any form of problem a lot less likely. (And someone posted a vide from Mas Ayoob a few years back showing similar considerations.) As a side not, if you even remotely think that my response is too harsh or that I might offend someone, there are two answers. The first: my means are not harsh; anyone who thinks so is too weak for society. Second: NO ONE has a right to not be offended. Tough luck and a blowtorch to those special snowflakes. (Compare those to being complacent and stupid and having any real risk of having to shoot someone because you were afraid to offend them or seem mean.)
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:08 PM
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There was no self defense in this case, just stupid. Seems he was following some advice from a famous person not to be mentioned.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by snubbyfan View Post
Getting shot at for getting lost and asking directions?
Seriously?!?!
Think there was a lot to do with ones skin color in this incident .. Unfortunately Racism is still rampant in this country !!
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:22 PM
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[/quote The previous burglaries occurred 10 years ago and were perpetrated by an acquaintance who was caught and imprisoned. Not a fruitful area of examination: the perp wasn’t a threat any longer and the passage of 10 years makes it seem this is all an excuse rather than an explanation.

I’m sure he was a offered a deal, but it certainly involved significant prison time. Sometimes defendants hope for a miracle at trial./QUOTE]

OK, after ten years, they should recovered and adapted.

No need to belabor the point about the kid no longer being a threat, my post started out stating agreement with that sentiment.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:35 AM
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[QUOTE=Doug M.;140197379]There is no excuse for opening the door to someone whom you do not know to be legitimate - and darned few are./QUOTE]

^^^ What Doug said ^^^ Had a situation a while back where the local police were beating on my door at 3am. Didn't open the door, disable my burglar alarm, or pocket my Shield 45 till I looked out the window and saw multiple marked squad cars. Turned out a phone line in the house had generated a 911 call/hang up, (don't ask me how). When that happens, the local PD dispatches, (glad they do in case it was legit). Took ATT three trips out here to finally get it sorted. One of the LEO's said they've had this happen before with ATT land lines. Again, don't ask me how/why.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:44 PM
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Sentencing was today.

He got 4 years.

Turns out this was the second time he shot at someone in "self-defense"
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Old 11-15-2018, 06:53 PM
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Very foolish, and convicted by his own words and the video. I don't think he could have done more wrong in his actions. Pretty obvious he was reacting (like a hothead) to the wife's screams.

I wonder why he was giving a statement, anyone with a brain would have had an attorney present.

Interesting that the detective testified about his statement that he was "tired of being a victim" and then neglects to mention that the home had been burglarized three times. Again - where was the attorney that should have been representing this guy, at the questioning and later cross examining the detective's testimony.

I'm surprised they didn't offer this guy a plea bargain for something like Reckless Endangerment. Political pressure?
Why plea bargain when the prosecution has evidence like that. His testimony was icing on the cake for the prosecution.

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Old 11-15-2018, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Rat View Post
We watched that video last night on the news with a WTH was that man thinking???? WRONG ON ALL COUNTS. Why did he bring a firearm to the door???
Well depending on where one lives, time of day, not unusual to answer the door with a pistol close by.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:13 PM
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It was morning, the kid says he missed his bus and decided to walk to school. He got turned around, and went to a house with a neighborhood watch sign to ask directions. The wife answered, and freaked out. The fireman woke up to her hollering that someone was trying to break in, and grabbed the shotgun.

The kid finally caught on that this was a dooky sandwich and legged it.

All would have been no problemo until the sleepy retired fireman touched one off. It looks like he aimed it over the kid, probably to move him along, but still - very stupid. Saying he tripped and fired accidentally didn't help, since the home security video he paid for told a different story.

I doubt if it was a foreign exchange kid from Sweden this would have happened. Instead he was a regular kid with a Dad in the service who didn't deserve to be shot at.
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