This just happened. I will be watching closely to see the outcome.
Personally, I don't think even FLORIDA allows shooting a shoplifter who is exiting a store without violence.

VIDEO: A Florida official shot a suspected shoplifter in the chest — and then watched him die – VICE News

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Stay protected my friends.

I watched the video and on the surface it looks bad for the shooter. HOWEVER, we only saw a small snippet of what happened. There may be more to the story that we weren't told or saw. I personally wouldn't jump to conclusions or judgement without knowing all the facts.

I hear you, and that is my policy as well. The story said the man was suspected of having hid a hatchet inside his pants. Still, given what the video shows I think it would take some extraordinary off-camera revelation to prevent this shooter from being charged.

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Stay protected my friends.

Couple things.

(1) VICE News. My most trusted source.

(2) Remember how I keep talking about wanting attackers to live, and rendering aid, and all that jazz? Yeah, "watched him die" is the sort of headline we're trying to avoid.

I've heard of a pistol in your pocket, but a hatchet in your pants ??? He might have been a greater threat to himself.

Looks like this guy has incarceration in his future.

Video shows commissioner fire deadly shots at suspected shoplifter - Story | FOX 13 Tampa Bay


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I agree with Zebra and Protected. The fact that the stolen item was a weapon helps some but not near enough given the video. There would have to be some other extenuating information to make that OK and it's not at all likely, but not impossible. Something like he stated he was going to immediately use it to whack someone with it, like a wife or GF outside in a car. Far fetched? Yeah. He's likely toast and probably should be.

I read either in THIS story or another story about this incident, that the shooter shot and killed someone when he was 19. Didn't research any details of that but it could indicate a person who has a tendency for excessive use of force.

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Stay protected my friends.

The deceased was holding a hatchet in his hand at the time of the shooting. Fl law allows detaining shoplifter so the shooter was within his rights to stop him. The shooting is going to be questionable as to whether the hatchet will be considered in determining how to prosecute or not.

I'm not denying it happened. I'm making fun of the source.

He accidentally shot a person, who survived.

So he was in fear for his life when he shot the subject, but not so much fear that he would just let that $15 hatchet walk out the door.

The hatchet defense is really reaching for it.

This looks like criminally negligent homicide aka manslaughter. I don't see how he beats that charge. Obviously, I also do not see the whole story, just a snippet, but it's a very unpleasant snippet. For sure some lawyer is going to get well paid.

They always do...

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Psalm 27:2

Looks like the suspect was armed with the hatchet in his right hand....

'

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I was taught in the police academy, albeit in 1968, that if an offense would not result in the death penalty we (the police) could not use deadly force. I’ll have to watch the video again to see if the suspect had that axe in his right hand at the time of the shooting. If so that does change things but I’ll reserve judgement until all the facts are in, something else I learned in the academy in 1968.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Yep, he did have the hatchet t in his right hand/ but I wouldn't call it threatening

Plus the video shows the shooter was actually holding on to the guy just prior to shooting. This guy was no threat to the shooter. Not going to get away with this I'm sure. Bad guy was never using the hatchet to threaten him either it seems. He was trying to run away. Bad news.

I don't much blame you. I'm a firm believer in freedom of the press, but Vice News may or may not be only one level above tabloid journalism.

For $15 hatchet he shot the guy? If the old man had been swinging the hatchet at the shooter then that could have been grounds for using deadly force.

The shooter looked like he was way heavier than the 60 year old skinny thief. I believe the shooter could have easily knocked the man to the ground and just sat on him till the cops arrived.

Perhaps a very stupid move shooting the old man. I do believe his living quarters will be downsized for a long time. But like some have said we don't have the whole story.

Guess he picked a bad week to cuff hatchets. We don't know all the facts here but on the surface it seems to me there are a lot of really short fuses out there.

It seems the shooter may have stepped in the dog's business.

I don't believe the price of that hatchet would be worth the hassle of shooting anybody, especially with him trying to get out the door, not coming at him. Besides, the thief was so dumb, he would probably hurt himself with it.

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Just a shooter

The funny thing is, I think they actually try harder to get it right than mainstream news. They ran a special a year or two ago about "smart" guns. Their conclusion was--hold on--that smart gun technology didn't work, was incredibly easy to bypass, and couldn't be retrofit to existing guns.

They got a bunch of things wrong in the article in question, but I honestly believe it's just because they're stupid and too lazy to do research.

That's the thing, though. You can't reconcile "deadly threat" with "I'm gonna grab this guy's arm to keep him from leaving". And ultimately, the guy was trying to leave the store.

So then, they're just like about a third of the "journalists" out there.
Then there's the third who deliberately try to deceive to further an agenda.
And then there are all the rest...

I have to concur with the majority opinion here. I'm betting the store owner is going to be a guest of the state for quite some time.

I too would like some more info, but what could change this? The one guy was desperately trying to get away from a guy with a gun. The right to self-defense ends when there is no longer a threat.

Even a Texan will think this is excessive force and put this guy in prison.

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Freedom isn't free.

[quote=Protected One;140200342]This just happened. I will be watching closely to see the outcome.
Personally, I don't think even FLORIDA allows shooting a shoplifter who is exiting a store without violence.

VIDEO: A Florida official shot a suspected shoplifter in the chest — and then watched him die – VICE News[/quot


FIRST OF ALL THE VICTIM IS NOT A "SUSPECTED" SHOPLIFTER---HE IS A BONAFIDE THIEF ! ! !

THAT BEING SAID, IMHO---THE VIDEO DOES NOT SUPPORT THE CIRCUMSTANCES REQUIRED, TO WARRANT THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE, UNDER THE FLORIDA, "STAND YOUR GROUND" LAW.....

THE THIEF NEVER BRANDISHED THE STOLEN AXE, NOR DID HE APPEAR TO THREATEN THE SHOPKEEPER IN ANY WAY. IN FACT HIS ONLY ACTIONS WERE CONSISTENT WITH A FUTILE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE.....

I BELIEVE THAT THIS SHOPKEEPER WILL BE CHARGED AND CONVICTED OF TAKING A HUMAN LIFE, OVER THE VALUE OF A MILSURP AXE.....

ITS ALL VERY SAD....









''

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I see nothing on Vice News website that leads me to believe it is below CNN or MSNBC.

60 Y/O is an "old man" ???

If you watch the video, he is holding what appears to be a Vietnam style tomahawk in his right hand, which is just outside the door jamb as he exits. It appears that some sort of confrontation occurred inside the store, as the shooter moves to door and is approached by the deceased in an attempt to exit. It is visible on the deck at his right shoulder when he falls. Since the story reflects that the deceased concealed the hatchet in his pants, and the video clearly shows it in his hand, I suspect he drew the hatchet from his pants at some point. I have no opinion as to whether or not this was a valid incident of self defense. The process will play out . . .

Edit: Also, the story reflects the deceased was 50 yoa . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

A press release stated that the victim was a "homeless felon." Last I checked, shoplifting isn't considered a felony, so it appears Cristobal Lopez wasn't the fine, upstanding citizen that a lot of anti-gunners might want him to appear to be.

Also, Dunn's attorney said the Dunn "was in fear for his life." I didn't see Lopez wield the hatchet in the video, but as they say, "It's a mighty thin pancake that doesn't have two sides."

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

My sympathy for criminals is about the same as for the jaywalker who gets mowed down by the city bus. If one intentionally puts one's self in a dangerous predicament, don't be surprised when things turn bad.

I'm not passing judgement on a five-second video, but the owner might want me on his jury.

"Felon" means one has been convicted of a felony, not charged with a felony or a misdemeanor. This guy had a previous conviction.

FL law allows use of deadly force for forcible felony.

“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Anybody remember the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment?

“No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privlidges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I know it well. It doesn't apply here.

For the record:

What part of that provision do you think applies to a shopkeeper who shoots a shoplifter?

The justice system in America has a really hard time with the death penalty.

Even when someone is convicted and sentenced to death for capital murder, it's a fact that it takes years and years for states, and even the federal government, to actually carry out the sentence.

Using Florida as an example, the state has offenders on death row who have been there since the mid- to late-70s! One guy's been there since 1971. Over 40 years. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself.

Yet here we have a run-of-the-mill store owner sentencing someone to death and carrying out the sentence in a matter of seconds. The fact that Michael Dunn is a Lakeland City Commissioner is completely irrelevant.

Dunn initiates the contact with the shoplifter and is actually pursuing him through the store and catching him as he attempts to run away. Far as I'm concerned, that totally negates any sort of stand your ground justification or defense for this shooting. When the shoplifter is shot, he is making no attempt to attack Dunn with the hatchet in his right hand. Matter of fact, his right hand is on the opposite side of the door. No way it could be a danger to Dunn.

This is as fine an example of vigilantism as I've seen lately. Michael Dunn shoots the guy, then just stands there and watches him die.

We don't have the death penalty for shoplifting in this country. If the guy had been arrested, he'd already be out on bond. Probably wouldn't even have been sentenced to jail, unless he was a big repeat offender.

Michael Dunn should be in the slammer right now. Stand your ground? Don't make me laugh.

Bay News 9 in case it hasn't been posted: Video of Shooting At Lakeland Military Surplus Released

I really see no way the shopkeeper can come out OK on this. It's not stand your ground or self defense case. It's not vigilantism either. At best it's just stupidity. On the face of it there was no way he was justified in using deadly force. For his sake I hope there is something else we aren't aware of that gives some justification but I seriously doubt it.

Some may be upset he wasn't arrested, and he wasn't as far as I know but I haven't kept up. He'd probably be better off if he had been as the State's clock would have started ticking. As it is they can take their time and build a lock tight case. The dead guy may well have been a dirtbag and missed by few but the commissioner's goose is cooked.

Zero idea how the 14th Amendment possibly applies to this incident.

That said, I do not abide thievery, but I am surely NOT going to shoot anybody who steals anything. Period.

Be safe.

We're mostly in agreement on this, for whatever that's worth. But vigilantism by any other name is still vigilantism...a group, or in this case an individual, taking the law into his own hands. Folks can argue semantics, definitions, or concepts all they want, but that's basically what went on in this case. Michael Dunn made a conscious decision to kill someone who broke the law. I believe if this ever goes to court, it'll become more apparent than it is now that this shooting was not justified.

The part where the deceased being a felon matters. It doesn't matter what the deceased did in the past, it only matters what he did that day. That's what "equal protection" means--that we, via the government, don't treat a crime against him any differently than if he wasn't a felon.

Normally, I have a problem with that particular "no criminal histories" ruling, but here we have video, so there's no need to substantiate that the shooter's account fits with the character of the deceased.

I’ll be the odd man out and say I don’t think he’ll be charged.

If there was no video, just a dead homeless felon with a stolen hatchet near his hatchet-swinging hand, this would be a no-brainer.

We shall see.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Just cuz the shooter wasn't arrested immediately doesn't mean he won't be arrested later, like with the handicapped parking shooter.

Being lazy, stupid, having an agenda, lying and/or deliberately trying to mislead people are not mutually exclusive.;-)

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Certified Curmudgeon

Very true. Good point...

But there is a video and it makes the shop owner look really bad. Yes, we shall see.

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Freedom isn't free.

THANKFULLY, I HAVE SEEN NOTHING ABOUT THIS INCIDENT, IN THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA EITHER. I ONLY LEARNED OF IT ON THIS FORUM.....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

If Mae West were there she would have asked " Is that a hatchet or are you just happy to see me ? "

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I like Ike.

...but if you can provide a citation supporting your belief the 14th comes into play here I will acknowledge my ignorance. I tried to find some evidence supporting your belief but could not.

Be safe.

I like Johns take on this; "The question is not CAN I shoot?... but rather - MUST I shoot?"

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Stay protected my friends.

Steal a hatchet and it becomes armed robbery. That in and of itself doesn't justify the shooting, but something for us armchair lawyers to consider.