I have a Michigan CPL and carry .38 j-frame mostly. I recently purchased a Taser Pulse+ and having a devil of a time finding certified training in my state. Someone in a youtube video explained the threshold for Tasing someone is lower as long as that person is a "imminent physical threat." Has anyone heard of this difference? Google results bring up "imminent danger."

Honestly, I don't plan on using the Taser against human attackers. I bought it for loose dogs in my neighborhood. I don't like the fact the Pulse resembles a gun and only having one shot.

Deploying a Taser isn't any different than striking someone with a baton, kick or fist. So, if you need to defend yourself and you have a Taser, save some wear and tear on your knuckles.

Talk to someone that knows your State's laws on the topic.

Trash that thing. Chalk it up to what seemed like a good idea, but really wasn't.

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America First

One of the things I will never, ever do is uncritically take the advice of someone on youtube when it is my liability on the line.

I carry a Taser on duty at all times. I sometimes wear a Glock 17 (which otherwise rides in a lock box in the passenger footwell).

Our perspective, which is generally mirrored elsewhere in the world, is that the Taser is a "less than lethal" option of force and it can be deployed defensively when an assaultative situation arises; ie being assaulted or threatened with assault.

Paraphrased, the G17 can only be justified in defence of self or another, to arrest or prevent escape, under conditions of death or GBH and where it is absolutely necessary and no other practical alternative exists.

The only time I have drawn my Taser was after lesser use of force options proved inadequate. I used my expandable baton to break open the door of a mobile home, the driver being our of control/angry/aggressive after sliding off the road, driving off after a request to exit the vehicle and and coming to rest on the wrong side of the road, on a hill, facing oncoming traffic around a corner, during darkness on an unlit highway with a 100 km/h (60 mph) speed limit.

His reaction to breaking in was aggressive enough that O/C Spray was used and found ineffective, so I drew the Taser and he became compliant.

The G17 would not have been appropriate unless he had armed himself with a weapon (impact or edged).

Interestingly our batons, which can easily impart a fatal injury, are considered down the escalating scale of force options than the Taser.

My belief is that if you are threatened, or circumstances objectively give you cause to consider you are being threatened, with less than lethal force then a Taser/stun gun may be the appropriate response. If you fear death/GBH then the .38 is appropriate.

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View from down under

As has been stated, you need to know the laws of your state first.

However, empty hand training is essential if you're going to deploy less than lethal tools.

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Freedom isn't free.

I get all of my legal advice on-line from non-licenced non-lawyers.

Ima Schmuck
Inmate 34298643
Oaks Correctinal Facility

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Certified Curmudgeon

I have attended Taser training as a part of a group involved in site security. It is not complicated so keep on searching for it - don’t know if it is available online.

Outside of its role in a building or group situation, or you are an LEO trying to to stop someone to arrest, I think it has limited usefulness. It will subdue an assailant and allow you to (rapidly) exit the area, but getting good effective contact with the wires is not guaranteed and the target may try to rip them out, or they may be wearing heavy clothes that stop contact. Food for thought.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I would think pepper spray would be a better choice for a dog. Probably a human as well, unless you want to leave the taser behind. Big difference between "subdue" and "escape" or causing someone or something to retreat and go away.

Taser training? Like this?

YouTube

FOr the use you state I recommend a good old fashioned T ball bat. Also it you go the bat route, carry a baseball glove-your lawyer will thank you

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Forum consigliere

You say you "carry .38 j-frame mostly". Does that mean you carry a different gun the remainder of the time or is that where the Taser fills in?

State gun laws allow the use of a firearm when the threat of great bodily harm or death is imminent. Doesn't restrict its use to human targets.

Considering the failure rate of tasers on human targets that DON'T HAVE THICK COATS OF FUR all over them, and the relative speed of dogs vs humans I would not recommend adding one to my edc...or even occasional carry. You miss with that ONE shot or get a hit in which the taser prongs don't stick?....and now you find yourself being mauled while scrambling to bring the weapon to bear that should have been used to begin with.

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Stay protected my friends.

I'm certainly not as anti taser as many here. I firmly believe tasers have greatly reduced injuries to both LEOs and suspects. They've probably also reduced the number of deaths from officer/suspect confrontations. Unfortunately, the failure rate in which they fail to produce the desired result is also very high. They do have a pretty good deterrent effect and that should be taken full advantage of, especially considering in most cases there's only one shot.

My best taser capture was when, solo, I confronted a chronic burglar on scene. I ordered him prone under threat of taser deployment (no, that's not how I termed it at the time), while I purportedly held my hand behind my back grasping my taser. After hesitation, he complied and I was able to take him into custody. After handcuffing I advised him that I was glad he complied as I'd forgot and left my taser on my dresser. He had previously experienced a taser ride. So, the point is use the deterrent, it's often there. Most ne'er-do-wells know what a taser is and don't want to take the ride.

I've also seen a number of failures or partial failures. Misses or partial misses are common. Without GOOD contact with both probes you won't get results. Frequently, even with good contact, the suspect will go down and roll and in doing so dislodge a probe, ending the effect. Other times a determined subject, by power of will, can continue to function while under the effect of the taser, although at greatly reduced efficiency. I would think winter clothes would make them pretty non-effective but that's not something I've had to deal with.

So, IMHO, for civilian use, the deterrent effect should be utilized. It should actually be deployed only at a range assuring proper probe placement. It's use as a contact ECD should be understood and trained for. Once deployed, beat feet, as the effect is short lived. Don't depend on it. It's not a substitute for a gun. It's better than nothing.

I think pepper spray works better on dogs. It's harder to hit a dog with a taser. Pepper spray doesn't work great on dogs either but it can, at times, produce the needed effect. Stream sprays are much better than aerosol products unless you're trying to clear a whole room or crowd.

I won't delve into the topic of a tasers entertainment value other than to mention that some subjects that manage to continue to function under the effect of a taser do a pretty good Frankenstein walk imitation. Then there's those that are running full tilt when tagged.

So, a LEO told me from his personal experience in training that getting tased is "like getting kicked in the nuts by an 800 lb gorilla".
Accurate?

At citizens police academy they gave us the opportunity to experience being tased. It's not as bad as that.

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Stay protected my friends.

I certainly doubt you got the full ride. Most cops don't get the full ride in their training class. Not many people, if getting the full dose, can function through it. It does hurt. In many cases it works fantastically.

However, I recall in training for the Taser's predecessor, the Nova stun gun, the instructor asked for a volunteer to demonstrate the Nova's effectiveness. There were no volunteers until the class took up a collection of about a hundred buck or so. We then had a volunteer.

The demonstration started with the instructor behind with both arms wrapped around the volunteer and the Nova applied to the mid chest area while held by both hands. The instructor started the demonstration by activating the Nova.

Several seconds later (Maybe 15 to 20 or so. I don't remember.) and after much groaning, grimacing and straining, the volunteer managed to take the Nova away from the instructor. He was a big boy but the instructor wasn't a mini-cop either.

Look it up in your Funk and Wagnalls.

At least apple and orange both refer to fruit.

Imminent and lethal have zero correlation other than the fact that they are both words.

Imminent means: it is going to happen.
Lethal means: if it does happen, you are dead.

Other than being placed in the same post, these two words have no similarity to each other

For training, I'd call my local PD or State Patrol HQ to find out who they use for their training and certification.

What compelled you to tell him?

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Stay protected my friends.

Well he was whining so much about how he didn't want to get tased again. So I guess I told him because of my evil nature. It did elicit an "Awe man, that ain't right xxxx (my street name used by the hood denizens).

Hard to say. I have seen a number of people who were tased. I've never even talked to anyone who had been kicked by a gorilla of any size.

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183rd FBINA

Get rid of the taser !! You aren’t quick enough to hit a moving dog at 15 feet.

Bear spray or a walking stick are much more effective non lethal devices for dogs.

I agree, gorilla kicks might be a little overstated, but it ain't fun.

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America First

I have taken a five second ride, and I have used it in the heat of battle. It is a tool, like anything else, tools work, and tools fail to work. Under the right circumstances, they are great. The trick is to have the right circumstances. I carry a gun off duty, I don't carry a taser off duty. There is a reason for that. I have personally seen great results and I have personally seen it fail. It's your call.

How bad are these loose dogs? I would prefer to up my awareness game before trying a Taser.

Without knowing how your state classifies Tasers in terms of force, I would say there are two things you should be thinking about:

(1) A dog is not equivalent to a person, legally. At best, it's property. Overwhelmingly, you should be considering what danger to bystanders your use of force creates. This is why I harp on awareness/avoidance over firing guns in neighborhoods, even to the point of "maybe don't go on walks in your own neighborhood". Having a gun isn't a license to ignore danger, and just cuz it's America don't mean you're free to do whatever you want.

(2) Don't think in terms of lethal/non-lethal. Think in terms of how grave the danger is. A dog might not be able to kill me, but I know of many people who were permanently disabled by nerve damage to the hands caused by dog bites. Similarly, just because a dog is about to bite you doesn't mean shooting is justified. I might say, for instance, "Well, this 40-pound dog is going to bite me, but the danger to myself is far less than the danger I would cause to those kids playing over there if I used my gun."

My advice? Leave the Taser at home, take your gun, keep your eyes open on your own property, find somewhere else to take walks, and call animal control.

My understanding is that any LE trainer certified by Taser is required by Taser to offer training to civilians . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Dogs are hard enough to hit with handguns. I sure as heck would not rely on a single shot taser.

If legal, carry a collapsible baton. Or a walking stick. Or go to the second hand store and buy a set of old ski poles.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Thanks for the replies and advice. I was able to sign up for a certified civilian course but not in my state. I plan to ask plenty of legal questions. I do have pepper spray and should carry it more often. I should mention I'm a dog owner and planned on using the taser as a last resort if another dog clamped down on my dog and I couldn't pull him off.

I would use whatever means at your disposal to not take a life if less than lethal would protect you. On a side note,...... they are not 100% effective on all folks but I'm sure your aware of that. You will KNOW if you need to ratchet up the force continuum when that time arrives. Good luck friend.

That's just a miserable situation all around. To be honest, there's no tool made that doesn't just suck out loud for that.

Best bet, if it's an ongoing problem, is to call and complain. Perhaps...seek allies. Look for families with children, get as many people together as possible, and present the issue in some fashion to your local politicians. If there are 2 or 3 houses that can't control their animals, but you can get 9 or 10 signatures on a letter, well...politicians are typically not smart, but they can tell which number is larger than the other.

If the OP is worried about loose dogs while walking, a stout walking stick would be a better option than a TASER for a multitude of reasons. I live in a rural area and I've been astounded by the number of folks who stroll about with no protection whatsoever. Some may be carrying well concealed, others obviously are not. That last occasionally allows one to appreciate the glories of God's creation, most do not.

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Back in the day when we had electric meter readers going house to house.....

Most carried a cattle prod for bad dogs.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

A Tazer is not legal in many states, including Illinois, or pepper spray in a container larger than a tube of lipstick.

The Japanese have a sport called Kendo, where they fight with bamboo swords. If you have reason to carry a mobility aid, there is a variation on that called "Cane-Do" or "Cane Fu," which is effective against dogs, bullies and arguably the best intermediate defense against a knife attack. The TSA will X-ray it, then hand it back.

Got the walking stick (actually a quarter staff that will be shortened some), and the bear spray is going to get ordered.

Past 70 and just had extensive surgery on my R leg, so long walks are in my future. The SC CCW is in process. Had a Fl CCW for years, but have been slow since moving to SC and a small town. Dogs are way more of a concern than people with bad intent.

Wet

Lethal threat permits the use of lethal force.

Imminent threat that doesn't rise to lethal threat or threat of grave bodily harm would be sufficient for Taser use.

I am making that up without reading anyone else's remarks because I'm a lawyer and I can make up bullspit like that. But an imminent threat of grave bodily harm justifies the use of lethal force. You want to use a Taser? Have at it. I prefer a gun.

One can argue that if you perceive a threat that you might get punched in the mouth or something then maybe a Taser is the way to go. I prefer to not get into fist fights because in 2019 someone is going to the hospital and someone else is likely going to the morgue. Knife fights are that way; fisticuffs has become pretty much mortal combat today, too.

I just saw this:

Carry a gun and be done with it.

For dogs get one of those cheap ($6) STUN GUNS you hear going off at gun shows all day long. Just the crackling noise from them will keep most dogs at bay. If not, touching them with it will.

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Vietnam 1969-1971

Taser vs aggressive dog... hmmmmmm... I'm thinking this is a bad idea. A dog running towards you is going to be a small target. An aggressive dog charging you is looking to do to you serious harm, possibly killing you. To me, this constitutes a life or death situation. I would not want to place my faith in a one shot electrical device that may or may not work and definitely won't work if the electrodes fail to strike or remain planted in the target.

Then there may be legal issues with carrying a taser. Laws on what is and is not allowed to be carried by civilians vary greatly from state to state. If civilian carry of a taser is illegal in your area and an LEO sees you or you get reported law enforcement, do you really want to end up in handcuffs and maybe lose your permit and perhaps your right to possess firearms?