And you never answered mine

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

These folks lived in a great, safe, neighborhood too.

Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders - Wikipedia

Violence like that is random, your number may never come up or it might come up the next time you walk into Walmart. All it took for this to happen was for an eleven year old girl to catch the eye of an ex-con who just happened to be in the same grocery store her mom was shopping in and for him to decide she was hot and he wanted to rape her. An eleven year old girl.

I've told this story before but I'm convinced that I was the intended victim of a home invasion one night several years ago. Some guy showed up on my front porch around 9PM and told me he was selling subscriptions to The Denver Post. He said he wanted to give me a free paper and if I'd just open the door he'd be happy to hand it to me. The only problem was he didn't have a paper with him. To make a long story short, I didn't open the door and he went away.

I made two decisions because of that incident. First, I don't open my door for people I don't know. Second, if I'm not in bed I'm carrying a gun. If I can't carry a gun with the clothes I'm wearing then I keep the gun within arm's reach.

IMO there are too many pocket carry options available and too many good reasons to carry at home not to. There are also too many good options available for me bet my life on a 2 shot pistol or a .22 revolver

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Never said you shouldn't be if you want. It is just that the vast majority of people carrying a gun in their home or on the street are doing it with comfort in mind not truly with self protection. I always carry a folding fighter. I am trained in its use & feel just as well armed as a 2 shot derringer buried someplace in my pocket. If I lived in a bad area I would never take off my ccw, but I do not, so I don't carry at home. Point, if you really feel the need to be armed then arm yourself with something you can fight with. A pocket 2 shot or the tiny FAA is just not that IMHO.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Hmmm, went thru the thread 3x I see no question from you????
Carry at home sure if you feel the need but I agree, a 2shot or ****** tiny little 5shot SA is NOT really a suitable fighting weapon. MY knife never runs out of ammo & in close, probably more effective than any 22lr. Lots of small pocket carry options in 380 & 9mm, far more effective, easier to shoot & more ammo. If I felt the need to be carrying 24/7, as much as I hate pocket carry, it makes sense with a small 380 or even alloy J-frame.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Question wasn't in this thread . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Carry what you want. With a proper defensive mindset a derringer can certainly save your life. Me? For the same size and weight I can get 6 or 7, even 8 shots in something else. I see no reason to settle for 2.

__________________
Pisgah

How much real world self-defense experience do you have?

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I don't remember that show, but I've seen a lot of testing of the iconic Remington double derringer in .41 rimfire. It's the most underpowered thing you've ever seen. I saw someone shoot a telephone pole with it and most of the bullet was still sticking out of the wood! It would probably break the skin on the target, but never reach a vital organ.

Primary? No.
Buckup? Sure.

I know that I have been against the grain and highly supportive of alternative self-defense firearms, including many with limited capacity which are slow to reload such as Single Action Army replicas, but 2-shots is too little in my opinion. Even if you somehow have become ultra proficient with a Derringer to the point that you can pull off all sorts of crazy trick-shots just by drawing/shooting, can reload them extremely fast, and are essentially a Guinness World Record holder in the making with one, there still comes a point in which you're just plain gimping yourself by choosing a weapon with such extremely limited capacity and slow reload speed. Even if it's your only firearm, you're better off just selling it or trading it for a Ruger LCP or something.

Honestly, I would sooner carry a North American Arms Mini Revolver in .22WMR as a primary weapon over a Derringer. Heck, I would even carry a Knife as a primary weapon over a Derringer. Derringers are a backup weapon at best as far as I'm concerned, and even in that role there are better choices.

__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Its time to sue the makers of tiny ****** little guns for making tiny ****** little guns and force them to only make giant manly fighting weapons...only then can we be truly safe, and not fooled into thinking were safe.

As in how many gunfights? Zero. The exact same number about 75% of all LEO are in, maybe the same as 99% of all ccw. So what is your point? I know people that have been in gunfights & survived, I still would not accept any advice on gun handling or even tactics from them, because they weren't good just lucky & they admitted so.
I have had POST level LEO training, FOF, various tactical classes with accomplished "real world" trainers. So again what is your point?

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Oh good, I thought I missed something interesting. Yeah lets bounce around threads & ask questions.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

How many times (shots fired or not) have you actually had to defend your self from a criminal?

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

As I said, about the same as 75% of all LEO or 99% of all ccw, zero. Again do you have a point? I know people that survived car crashes, doesn't mean I want to take driving lessons from them.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I think Smoke is trying to establish the basis from which your pontifications flow. Since you don’t display an LEO badge, and have never claimed such, it seems safe to assume that you’re in the 99% who are just guessing.

Your analogy about car crashes is just silly. Lots of people have survived assaults and shootings without a pistol. Certainly more than have survived a shooting with a pistol, and infinitely more that those who have survived by displaying or employing a pistol . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well, most of us try to remember what we posted from thread to thread . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Nah. I’m gonna let ‘em down very easy . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

NO, Just No.

I know a man who carries a dense stick with him everywhere.
I won't be doing that either.

__________________
Stay protected my friends.

Yet we dont follow every thread every hour" some people will come onto a thread a week later & ask a question.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I know plenty of leo that so not know squat about shooting. Since the vast majority of all leo never get into a gunfight, merely wearing a badge does not bestow skill level or even understanding of what it will take to win a fight. The dufus at parkland school is a good example. I know leo that have survived a gunfight & fully admit it was shear luck. So again, what is the point of asking how many fights you have been in.
My shooting exp & training is quite broad, including instructing. That should give me a basis for my opinions. Leo exp, so? 20y of writing tickets & solving domestic disputes & arresting drunks. Just what is their basis for informed opinion on ballistics &/or shooting? Yeah, thought so.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Another consideration is that there be more than one bad guy? And sometimes it takes more than one shot to stop or slow the bad guy down.

Had a derringer once. Couldn’t hit anything with it. To each their own, but I think I would be doing myself a disservice to carry one as a primary.

A friend has a Bond Arms 45LC/410. Nice gun. But because of the size and weight, I can think of several guns that would be a better choice. But in the end, he’s happy.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

To paraphrase Bruce Lee "Targets don't shoot back."

I didn't ask you how many fights you've been in nor did I ask you how many gun fights you've ever been in. I asked you what your level of self defense experience is. I want to know what qualifies you to tell anyone how to respond to an actual criminal encounter.

I'm not an NRA certified instructor and I haven't had POST certified training but I have had to deal with two guys trying to rob me one night. I've also had to deal with a tweaker trying to snatch my gun. I also know what it feels like to be cruising along minding my business and have someone start shooting with you right in the middle it.

I also know what that awful moment when you realize that this is real, you can't call time out and if you get it wrong you can be seriously injured or killed or if you over react you can end up in jail for the rest of your life feels like. There's not enough training in the world to prepare you for for that.

There's a line between training and the real world. People who have crossed the line get it. People (like you) who haven't, don't.

That's why I find it amusing when you (to use Muss' word) pontificate about how I should react to a self defense situation.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Hmmmmm. I’ve never shot anyone, but I spent eight years arresting felons in New Orleans during those pre-Katrina glory years of 435 murders a year in a city of 400,000 people. (For scale, my last duty station in Denver had about 50 murders a year in a city of over 600,000 people). I went into murderer’s homes and pointed my gun at them and took them to jail. I didn’t bother to keep count, but it had to be at least 500 times. One day, I arrested three murderers before mid-afternoon (all separate murders).

Then I spent 17 years working violent crime on Indian reservations in the wild west. Usually it was me and a tribal investigator in the deep rez hours from help going into someone’s house and hauling them out to face the music.

But, I managed not to shoot anyone so it counts the same as writing tickets and handling domestics. Both of which, by the way, can be extraordinarily dangerous.

I do know if I had just been pointing my finger at them instead a Sig .45, I’d be dead.

I respect everyone’s experience. But if you get all butthurt when someone asks about yours, it tells me something.

Also, I like derringers.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

So I assume that the derringer detractors don’t like the titanium double tape defense gun?

I don't know too many people who have actually had to defend themselves who are willing to use a two-shot Derringer or a single action revolver or a .22 revolver of any kind as a primary defensive weapon.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I'm glad to see a man with your experience point this out to him. To me, someone who discounts tickets and domestics like it's meter maid work has 0 credibility with me, and tells me he knows nothing about a LEO's work. I have no experience myself, but a blind man can follow the news understand the risks. And, every afternoon at 5 I talk to my daughter when she goes on duty as a state trooper working the night shift. By herself, pulling over cars, going to domestics and dealing with drunks in the middle of the night when the decent people are tucked under the blankets. Were only a state of 600,000 but have already had several police shootings during domestics gone bad already this year. I often have to stop her from telling me about her night...my ulcers resulting from chronic worry cant take it. Yea fredj338, they dam well better know what it will take to win a fight, and they do. Even though they "merely wear a badge" as you claim. Now go play with your paper targets and study your ballistic charts.

What he said, but different places and different objectives, at times. Still the same type of experience. But I like my NAA .22 WMR better than derringers. But this thread has me considering buying one. Dad had a High Standard in his collection when he died, and we sold it. Now I wish I'd kept it . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

...by gunfire. Ditto for any type confrontation. You sound like that would be your sole recourse.

In my crime fighting days if I shot everyone who assaulted me there would be lotsa dead people.

And if you somehow think ‘training,’ absent a REAL LIFE adversary, makes you some kinda self-defense expert you are fooling yourself.

OT and an “inside baseball” question.

Does the FBI response like you describe depend on the local field office? In my city there’s an interagency task force and a regional FBI office. The local LEO’s I’ve known here complain the FBI tends to show up after the fact in their logo’d gear to do press conferences. Their opinion is the guys doing the heavy lifting here are the local SWAT teams and the U.S. Marshals. Not trying to crack on the FBI, just curious if that’s a city by city thing or just grumbling.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

I have a High Standard 22 Mag, and a American 38 special of the same design. I've shot them both lots, but my EDC is a lowly J-frame with a speed strip. When I feel the need my EDC never changes!, but one of my 8 semi auto 45's is carried.

Having said all that, I read about a Vietnam vet that had a HS 22mag. in his pocket. After he was captured and disarmed of his issue weapon(s) he used his HS to kill one captor and disable the other. Not necessarily a bad use for any micro pistol!

My credentials are almost non-existent! But I needed my J-frame twice (but never cleared the pocket before the other guy fled! (It didn't matter if I carried 2 shot or 5 shot!)

Ivan

Real world experience is definitely beneficial, but it should simply be a verification that your training was conducted properly. I think there are a lot of great instructors out there without much of real world experience. I don't think it unreasonable to think that a well-trained, highly intelligent and highly skilled individual with an analytical mind would likely be a better instructor or even perhaps better prepared for most self-defense scenarios than a dumb guy with a lot of real world experience.


I've never been a police officer, so I've never actually arrested and cuffed anyone "for real", but that didn't seem to matter to most LEO's who sought my instruction on the most efficient manner to accomplish it. I found my training and even competition to both be more demanding than any real world altercation I've been involved in due to the differences in skill of those involved. The same concept applies to armed defense although perhaps to a lesser degree.

I can certainly understand someome determining the odds of needing a firearm are so low that they see no need to carry one. That describes the majority of the population.

Since just having a functional gun, any gun is usually enough to deter most criminals from continuing whatever it is they planned on doing to you, I can also understand why someone would choose to carry a small, lightweight gun rather than a heavy, large one. They are essentially playing the odds, but they are so stacked in their favor that it is not unreasonable to do so. In fact, the effort(as well as physical discomfort and potential long term injury) it takes to carry a larger, heavier weapon for no practical reason could be considered unreasonable.

What doesn't make sense to me is to carry a far less effective weapon(especially if it's less safe) that involves equal or greater effort to carry than a far better one. Plus, kind of like choosing a caliber, is there a minimum threshold as to what constitutes a suitable defensive firearm? I think there is, even if it may be difficult to precisely define.

From my perspective, a derringer simply isn't a logical choice as a primary carry weapon when weighed against other currently available options.

Other than my Army infantry training and reading profusely on self-defense subjects, I have had little self-defense training or actual self-defense experience with a handgun. I have had one confrontation where being armed made the difference.

In that instance, the mere display of a pistol, and jacking a round into the chamber, scared off a truck full of yahoos intent on doing me and a girlfriend harm. This was during my college years. I pulled the gun out of the glove compartment of my car in response to the approach of the truck, and as they bailed out of the truck to approach my car, I was very glad I had it within reach.

It was my very first handgun, a .22 Ruger Standard model. It goes to the saying that no one would like to be shot with anything.

By the same token, I'm way more effectively armed today...

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I don’t think you need experience to instruct in fundamentals. Just look at university professors.

Practical application is different. Someone who’s BTDT, in any field, can demonstrate nuances that an instructor that just knows the fundamentals, but without practical experience isn’t able to.

That’s true in the trades where apprentices attend classes to learn fundamentals, but work with journeymen on the job to learn applications. True in medicine where doc’s to be learn fundamentals from academics, but do internships and residencies with practicing docs to refine application. Police also. Police Academy for fundamentals, working with an FTO to understand application of those skills.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

I was on a Violent Crime/Fugitive Task Force in New Orleans, composed of FBI agents and NOPD detectives. At the time NOPD didn’t have a warrant squad - they would get a warrant, put it in the local system, and go to the next murder. We would pull the warrants, open a Preliminary Inquiry UFAP (Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution) case, and then we’d have 90 days to either find them locally, determine they had left the state and get a federal UFAP warrant, or close the case. The agents got NOPD IDs, and the NOPD guys got Special Deputy US Marshal creds. In-between fugitive arrests we did any violent traditional federal crimes like bank robberies, armored car hold ups, and kidnappings. It was the best work to be had in the Bureau.

Each FBI Division has a similar task force (now called Safe Streets) and most also have a Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) thanks to 9/11.

The situation in New Orleans was unique since the city was in a crime free-fall. Most cities have their own warrant squads. I left NO in 1998.

Local cops have complained about the FBI since the FBI was born. It comes with the territory and never bothered me. I would just do my job and try to prove them wrong.

I have always found the most vocal critics of the FBI to be cops who applied and didn’t get in.

Attached Images

A128A82D-2A66-4CAC-A8A3-819950B0F398.jpg (111.8 KB, 18 views)

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

I agree with you for the most part, but a lot depends on the specific activity and the broadness of application.

If it's an isolated task such as simply controlling and handcuffing an unarmed combative mentally ill individual, I'd bet the farm that first day on the job Brock Lesnar will more effectively accomplish that specific task than a female officer with a decade or two of actual real-world experience. Obviously there are countless potential variables to consider that experience will help in dealing with, but it's spectrum. The interplay of knowledge, skill, ability, training and experience.

The question was what makes someone a "self-defense expert"? A lot depends on your definition. What about someone who lives in a country where firearms are prohibited, so they focus solely on unarmed techniques like Geoff Thompson? Or maybe a gun guy with virtually no ECQ or H2H skills like Grant Cunningham. Is it solely a matter of knowledge and experience or is skill and actual ability also required? Countless different perspectives.

Depends on if you are or are looking for an instructor, an analyst, or a practitioner. Usually three distinct roles that don't often overlap.

The instructor can teach me a technique for putting on cuffs.

An analyst can tell me what the different cuffing techniques are and how frequently each is used.

A practitioner can demonstrate the techniques they developed to talk the BG into submitting without a fight.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

My exact thoughts!

__________________
otis

Defensive shooting instructor. Who is an expert? Very few have been involved in actual shootings, if that is a necessary criteria. I think most people would label someone like Mas Ayoob more of an expert than numerous guys who may have actually exchanged gunfire. George Zimmerman has more real world ECQ shooting experience than Craig Douglas AFAIK, so who is the real expert there? Chris Kyle was definitely an expert sniper who saw a lot of combat and shot a lot of people, but those skills didn't translate over to civilian self-defense real well. Context figures in a great deal.

Hope you did not misconstrue my post. Training most certainly IS hugely important. I have learned a great deal from terrific instructors, and I taught at a major state university for more than twenty years.

Fact is, though, all training incorporates compliance in the end. After all, we don’t want to physically harm peers or students. And I have yet to experience a range where someone is returning live fire.

We can learn and teach ‘what to do’ to account for about 99% of actions. But what happens when the bad guy doesn’t do what he/she is told to do? Or he/she attempts to harm you? That is where the real world experiences come into play. And that simply cannot be learned in a classroom, lab, or anywhere other than ‘on the street.’

Be safe.

I had some range time with a derringer. Single action must be cocked, little hammer, little trigger, little grip, not exactly light, only two shots. I'll take a alloy revolver or a LCP any day. I'd say maybe a backup to a primary hid in a boot or bra holster

Would a .410 derringer work on quail?

No smoke you did ask, just for the record.
No I am not telling anyone how they should respond to a potential threat. I can only offer how I would. Same for gear. If someone asks for my informed opinion on gear, I am pretty sure my knowledge of what works & what does not is a lot higher than most LEO or someone who survived an altercation with a drunk. This thread is just that, an opinion of a specific weapon type that should or should not be carried. Your opinion then would be no better or worse than mine, though we have diff experience levels.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

So what rookie cop gets real life adversaries, but in a controlled training scenario enviro? So is the rookie cop inadequate to defend himself/herself? I think not. Then just because you have training doesn't mean you have developed the skill level to implement it. I see that almost every week. I am not, nor ever have offered my opinion as an expert. I just know how I would react based on my training, skill set & mindset. As all of us should, or like carrying a pocket 2 shot, you really are not ready for your fight.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Rookie cops go through a long period with a Field Training Officer before they are allowed to patrol on their own. They get plenty of chances to demonstrate their street smarts and application of training with real offenders under the watchful eye of an experienced officer. Many officers (including my own brother) don’t make it out of the FTO phase of training and are terminated. No such system exists that I am aware of in the non-LEO CCW world.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

We used to do defensive tactics training at St. Louis County & Municipal Police & Fire Training Academy. There was an elevated track around the gym perimeter. One day we were rolling around on the mats while one of the Police Academy classes was doing classroom instruction. About every five minutes or so, a door would whack open on the track and an instructor would come flying out. Shortly thereafter, two out of breath trainees would follow. They’d do two or three laps trying to catch the instructor and head in. In the classroom, an instructor would walk up behind two trainees, whack ‘em in the back of the head, and shout “FOOT CHASE!” You can guess the rest. Stuff like that goes on all the time in the Academy. The general public way underestimates what goes into the making of a law enforcement officer . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Another plus for the HS 2 shot is:
Next time someone whines about the poor DA pull of a Smith compared to a Python.... let them run 100 thru the Derringer and they’ll love getting back on the Smith.

In a bilge or up a stick ....the HS 22Mag was the temporary primary when working on boats decades ago.

Loaded, the HS with the brass grip frame, will weigh twice that of a loaded LCP.
Case harden down the road.

Attached Images

D645A1F8-9AF3-44EB-987E-41874895A05B.jpg (62.9 KB, 29 views)

I'm still popcorning the hell out of this, btw.

Although I have to say--I don't understand the "gray area" odds-playing with respect to the derringer. I always figured, no, I really don't need a gun, but if I'm going to carry one, it might as well be a reasonably useful one. That's why I don't carry a pocket .380: I can't shoot them worth a damn. The incredibly minor increase in inconvenience between that and a subcompact dramatically increases the range, accuracy, shootability, and oomph-factor. It's an efficacy-node--larger guns are only slightly better (in my hands/jurisdiction), smaller guns are hilariously worse.

Unless you're literally just carrying a little derringer to say you have a gun, at which point admit that you're carrying for the novelty of it and that you selected it purely out of convenience, and not because it's actually useful.

And no, "gun > no gun" does not justify such a choice.