C&P of an old post I made on the Kansas CCW forum.

It has been my observation that when those of us who are into guns start talking about the defensive uses of guns, the only thing usually discussed is the caliber of the gun. I have read statements to the effect that caliber is crucial. Some folks seem to feel like this is the main factor in who will win or lose the fight if, God forbid, one occurs.

Hopefully, we can use this post to shed a little light on the subject. So, I am going to give you the most important rule of gun fighting right now. It is

Avoid them!!!

In spite of the 'castle doctrine' law that was passed the same year as Kansas' CCW law, saying in effect that we do not have a duty to retreat from anyplace that we have a lawful right to be, it is still a very good idea to retreat from the scene if you can do so without endangering either yourself or those that you have a duty to protect. The gun, which after a long and arduous process, you have finally won the legal right to carry, is there to protect your life or the life of your family in the event that the use of deadly force becomes necessary. It is not cowardly to retreat if you can; in fact, it shows prudence and good judgement on your part.

So, we now come to the question of what determines who wins a gunfight and who loses.
There are four main factors in surviving gunfights (always assuming that they cannot be avoided altogether). They are:

1. The willingness to shoot, sometimes called mental preparation. The most powerful wondergun in the world won't do you a bit of good if you are not willing to use it if you have to.

2. Sound tactics; i.e. the use of effective cover and/or concealment if there is any available. Don't be like Dirty Harry in Sudden Impact, standing dramatically out in the open with your 44 Auto-Mag. If your foe shoots while you are doing something as stupid as this, that Auto-Mag might as well be a Jennings 22.

3. Bullet placement. A hit with 38 special beats the hell out of a miss with a 500S&W. Likewise, a 32 bullet hitting your spine is going to do more damage than a 45 in the muscle of your leg.

4. Caliber. This is the least important variable. About all a heavier caliber will do as opposed to a smaller one is give you little more margin for error.

So, don't depend on caliber as the most vital factor. It is important, yes; but other things are far more important.

I only hope to God you never have to use this knowledge.

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Let's be careful out there

I’ve always heard that the best way to keep from getting hit in the face during a fight is,
Don’t be in a fight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All great points! Thanks for posting!

I hope you're not waiting for me to agree with you. I do already.

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Let's be careful out there

This is about the most sensible advise on the topic I've read in some time.

Bad things can happen even in familiar settings amongst people we think we know.

I described a bad scene at my club recently. This was a stupid incident that should never have happened. The principle antagonist not only pulled a major safety blunder, he assaulted the guy who simply tried to warn him, verbally threatened him, and made it abundantly clear via his verbal and body language that he was quite willing to take it much further. That he was in possession of a concealed handgun leaves the possible outcomes quite frightening to imagine.

Crisis Intervention at the Range UPDATE 5/28!

The guy who was attacked happens to be an experienced CWP instructor, amongst other things. He is certainly capable of taking care of himself in a bad situation. In this case, he wisely evacuated from the scene. He wasn't afraid. He just knew the only way things could go otherwise was for the worst. It wasn't about "winning" a fight, it was about protecting one's self.

Thank you to the OP for sharing his insights.

Jim

Good insight. Back in the day, as an academy firearms instructor, I was frequently asked: when can I shoot someone? I believe that many inexperienced people imagine themselves involved in an unexpected quick draw situation resulting in split second decision making. In truth, strong situational awareness will frequently give the prudent individual a chance to avoid conflict. For example, an LEO may only have to choose good cover before challenging a suspect to avoid a rushed decision. A civilian
has even better chances to avoid conflict since they can usually choose where they go and when they do so. True, mental preparation is key to managing a physical confrontation and anyone carrying a concealed weapon should seek training to be truly prepared, but part of that preparation is the skill of avoidance of risk. I guess what I'm saying is: prepare to be trapped but plan to avoid the conflict in the first place. I'm not out there to prove I'm tough, I'll do that by living a long life.

John Farnam philosophy:
Don't go to stupid places
Don't hang out with stupid people
Don't do stupid things

I just hope I hit what I'm shooting at and he misses.

As a civilian, avoidance is certainly best. However, mindset is the key to winning. 1st one I was in as a cop, I was not prepared. Toe to toe, with my gun in hand, I was stunned when he pulled. Only a mechanical failure on his part gave me enough time to catch up. During a subsequent time, I was ready. Retired now and avoidance is my policy. But I will never get surprised again. One other observation from working many police shootings while in Homicide is also related to mindset. How can officers miss from short distances? My theory is that they do not really want to shoot a person. Again mindset. You have to want to win to win.

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Metro Man

I believe it was Bill Jordan that stated in a gunfight you need to'' take your time in a hurry". Always remember that every round that leaves the barrel of your weapon has a lawyer tied to it. Many of my LEO comrades can testify to this, including ME!!

So far, this thread has been full of good advice.

This has been around for a while. It's entitled USMC Rules for Gunfighting, but it certainly applies to civilian confrontations with a little modification. First time I've seen the rules for other branches of service added . . .

Here's the place I stole it from . . .

USMC Rules for Gunfighting (COMPLETE LIST) - Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

A personal tourniquet and a timely ride to the local trauma center affect life expectancy.

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On the whistle draw and fire 6

Luck??????

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Retired Career Security Guard

As jscott above said, awareness and tactics are #1... Trying to play catch-up to a gun already drawn is not good business. Having your gun in hand BEFORE the fight starts ends most "gunfights" before they start.

99.9% of the criminals in this world are cowards and will run at the sight of a gun. They are betting on total compliance. But there are those who will fight you to the end even if you have the advantage going into the fight...you just have to wanna win more than they do...

Best book I have seen on the subject of the at least 100 I have read is Tom Ginens "FIGHTING SMARTER". He put into words everything I have been teaching for the last 30 years...wish I could have done so as well as he has.

As to LEOs and civilians missing targets especially at short range...to me it is bad training and practice. This turns into fear when the time comes and fear turns into panic and missing your target out of fear of dying...and then you die... Don't fear dying, you won't panic and prevail...

Bob

Great list.
I have a slightly different view on this one point though. That is...the rules of gun fighting presume that "avoidance" wasn't possible. Gun fighting rules only apply to an actual gunfight.

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Stay protected my friends.

I do not disagree with the OP, but I would add that the words, “situational awareness” are key to seeing what is about to happen and then making decisions on how to handle it.

Also, point #2 should include, “movement” as the top priority. Movement (Getting off the X) reduces the chances of the adversary landing a hit whether you shoot or not. Getting to cover is moving. Running away is moving. Moving tactically to gain an advantage in shooting, including diagonally toward one side of the shooter, is moving. When you have to press the mental “Go” button, moving is the first priority. Luckily it is often instinctive, but trained movement will usually be more effective than simple reactive movement.

Practicing on a square range does little for this critical component of prevailing in a gunfight. Shooting accurately while moving is a level of training few people practice.

Another critical component is to STAY IN THE FIGHT. Just because you are injured does not mean you will not prevail. An injury, even being shot, does not mean you are going to die. For the seconds-long duration of most gun encounters, you can continue to land effective persuasion against an aggressor. Win, at all costs, but with good mindset, training and equipment.

Finally, I have understood there were four “S’s”:

Stupid places
Stupid times (2 AM)
Stupid people
Stupid actions

Eliminate just one of these components and you decrease your chance of getting involved with problems (which is why “time” is important). Two of these = further reduction. Eliminate all four and if something does happen to you, you have been chosen to react appropriately. It’s just your time.

If you know you're going to be in a gun fight, don't go.

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Freedom isn't free.

That 2 tenths of a second to have good control before the first shot can and will make the difference.

You forgot luck. You can be the best gunfighter that ever walked the planet but the bad guy only has to get lucky once. We can control most variables like skill level & mental prep but you cant do much about being unlucky.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I like to go fishing and camping by myself away from the crowds. My main strategy for avoiding trouble is to never drink any alcohol while I'm out alone. Not even in camp.
While not everyone who drinks alcohol is stupid and dangerous, every stupid and dangerous person drinks alcohol.
If there's no booze around the stupid and dangerous people leave.
Just my opinion.

I can unequivocally declare the above statements incorrect. As a fact of the matter, I can further state that the most dangerous people I have ever encountered neither drank alcohol nor used illegal substances . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well lets just say booze or dope doesn't make anyone better, pretty much fact.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Three Beer Muss could win Last Comic Standing unanimously . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

As someone who has “been there” your points are spot on. I came up shooting b/c that’s all I had time to do, and my issued .38 served me well. I’m not sure how much skill or luck was involved, but it’s not something I’m anxious to experience again.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

There is one adage that always sticks in my mind in threads like this that we all need to remember: " You can do everything right and still get killed. "

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Didn't Wyatt Earp have a similar statement - wait - I will look that up.

Wyatt Earp Gun

(c) American Shooting Journal


I do think there is another Wyatt Earp quote around that is similar but that will do.

As a side note, there was a discussion the other day that began with a story of a woman under threat in her home and she fired five times at her attacker and there were five holes in the walls. Without ammunition she was easy prey to be killed. But my point comes from the days when I was active in cowboy action shooting. We used to say that there is no target too big or too close that you cannot miss it. So if you simply have to shoot, well, take your time.....quickly.

Here are quotes from Wyatt Earp, plus analysis.

John

Wyatt…
“I was a fair hand with pistol, rifle, or shotgun, but I learned more about gunfighting from Tom Speer’s cronies during the summer of 1871 than I had dreamed was in the book. Those old-timers took their gunplay seriously, which was natural under the conditions in which they lived. Shooting, to them, was considerably more than aiming at a mark and pulling a trigger. Models of weapons, methods of wearing them, means of getting them into action and operating them, all to the one end of combining high speed with absolute accuracy, contributed to the frontiersman’s shooting skill. The sought-after degree of proficiency was that which could turn to most effective account the split-second between life and death. Hours upon hours of practice and wide experience in actualities supported their arguments over style.”

Lesson 1
Marshal Earp is being crystal-clear here: the right gun, the right holster, the right way to carry it on your body, getting out of the holster and either into the low-ready position or right on target, knowledge of your gun’s mechanical systems (and knowing how and why to correct problems when the machinery fails), and how to use it safely, quickly, effectively, and accurately. Lots of quality-time practice, at indoor and outdoor ranges, in all lighting and weather conditions.

Wyatt…
“The most important lesson I learned from those proficient gunfighters was the winner of a gunplay usually was the man who took his time. The second was that, if I hoped to live long on the frontier, I would shun flashy trick-shooting — grandstand play — as I would poison. When I say that I learned to take my time in a gunfight, I do not wish to be misunderstood, for the time to be taken was only that split fraction of a second that means the difference between deadly accuracy with a sixgun and a miss. It is hard to make this clear to a man who has never been in a gunfight. Perhaps I can best describe such time taking as going into action with the greatest speed of which a man’s muscles are capable, but mentally unflustered by an urge to hurry or the need for complicated nervous and muscular actions which trick-shooting involves. Mentally deliberate, but muscularly faster than thought, is what I mean.”

Lesson 2
He’s saying it true here: fast and accurate, using your trained and developed powers of concentration, which comes through regular practice, to create the required muscle memory.

Wyatt…
“From personal experience and numerous six-gun battles which I witnessed, I can only support the opinion advanced by the men who gave me my most valuable instruction in fast and accurate shooting, which was that the gun-fanner and hip-shooter stood small chance to live against a man who, as old Jack Gallagher always put it, took his time and pulled the trigger once.”

Lesson 3
In our modern context, he’s not talking about the number of rounds you can put on the paper or human target, but the accuracy of those rounds. Not just “spraying and praying” and hoping one lands where you wanted it, but a practiced, measured shot each time. Sight picture, straight pull of the trigger to the fire, move to the trigger reset quickly, adjust the sight picture off the recoil, and prepare to do it again.

Wyatt…
“In the days of which I am talking, among men whom I have in mind, when a man went after his guns, he did so with a single, serious purpose. There was no such thing as a bluff; when a gunfighter reached for his forty-five, every faculty he owned was keyed to shooting as speedily and as accurately as possible, to making his first shot the last of the fight. He just had to think of his gun solely as something with which to kill another before he himself could be killed. The possibility of intimidating an antagonist was remote, although the ‘drop’ was thoroughly respected, and few men in the West would draw against it. I have seen men so fast and so sure of themselves that they did go after their guns while men who intended to kill them had them covered, and what is more win out in the play. They were rare. It is safe to say, for all general purposes, that anything in gunfighting that smacked of show-off or bluff was left to braggarts who were ignorant or careless of their lives.”

Lesson 4
Action is faster than reaction. Even if the bad guy facing you is armed, you can still draw and fire at him, as his (tiny or alcohol or drug-addled) brain is trying to figure out what you’re doing, why you’re not giving up or complying, and why he suddenly sees muzzle flashes and bullets headed his way.

Wyatt…
“Practiced gun-wielders had too much respect for their weapons to take unnecessary chances with them; it was only with tyros and would-bes that you heard of accidental discharges or didn’t-know-it-was-loaded injuries in the country where carrying a Colt’s was a man’s prerogative.”

Lesson 5
We learn from our Masters. Be thoughtful about your weapon, be proficient with it, practice with it often, and it will serve you.

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Number 1 - The willingness to shoot !!

In a class it was asked would you shoot someone in the back ..
and about 40 percent of the class said No ..
a couple of the women and several men .. Towards the end of the class
we were asked if you saw someone killing multiple people would you
shoot the perp in the back and it was 100% Yes ..

Different situations and are you ready for all of them that
are possible ??

Being prepared to shoot even someone in the back needs to be reconciled
with ones self when arming yourself before a
possible situation might arise ..

...doesn't mean you have to use it if it's not smart.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Folks who believe a firearm is a magic wand should either have one made of chocolate or possibly one in suppository form.

I don't agree with your list. Most of what is needed are mental and ability to process information quickly. People have different mental and visual processing speeds and respond to stress in very different ways. Most people are better suited to fleeing danger. Bluntly a gun is a tool you don't want to use. And most people cant process stimuli under stress. That is why flight over fight is first option.

I was about to say the same.... People do stupid things under the influence but it's the ones that will kill/rob/rape you stone cold sober are the ones I worry about...

When I was with Probation/Parole 99% of my charges had drug or alcohol problems that led to their doing the crime... But it was that 1% that did their crimes sober and didn't have a substance abuse problem that were and continued to be the danger...

Bob

Body armor. That helps.

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Halfway and one more step

Thanks for the great advice. This is the kinda stuff anti-gun folks need to know about us. We're not out looking for a fight. We simply want to protect ourselves and our loved ones if need be.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Being prepared mentally and physically is important.

As I get older I rely on the mental part more so than ever. I don’t run as fast and I’m not as strong. If I can see things before they happen, I can avoid them sooner.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast!

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I don't think your points and the OP's points are mutually exclusive.

This brings up a very good point. Just how do you train? Does practicing at a conventional range hinder the shooter more that they help? Put another way, are the range 'safety' rules that we see on most ranges (no drawing and shooting from the holster, stay still, one shot every five seconds, etc.) hurting or helping the developing defensive shooter?

I am very fortunate in that I have my own range where I set the rules, and my range, cut out of the slope of a creek bed has a high berm on three sides. This arrangement allows me to set up targets so that I can shoot in three different directions. I also utilize movement, and while I am a bit rusty at it now, I was reasonably adept at shooting while moving.

This is an early picture of the range taken by a friend. The height of the berms was increased after a major local construction project made a bunch of free dirt available. Gravel was put on the floor, and my cousin's grandson says that he'll gravel the driveway down to the range.



Now that the weather seems to have stabilized around here, I intend to use it a lot more.

Anyway, back to training, does the ability to shoot small groups in what the quoted poster refers to as 'square range' shooting, mean that you are able to protect yourself on the street?

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Let's be careful out there

Maybe . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

'Maybe' is right. Granted, it can't hurt, but there is a lot more to being able to protect yourself than the ability to disintegrate the center of a bullseye target in ten minutes or whatever the alloted time is.

Let me ask this: who is better able to defend himself: the person who can put five rounds in a 2" circle (at whatever distance) in one minute, or the one who can put five rounds in a 6" circle in five seconds at the same distance?

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Let's be careful out there

Interesting thread. To me it has always revolved around this one question. Am I willing to take the life of another person? When I taught the LTC class my first question to my new class was...are you willing to take the life of another human?
We all practice, we try to maintain awareness....we work to find the right weapon....ammo.... style of carry. But are we willing to kill another man/woman if we are pressed? If we choose to carry a weapon then that question must be settled within each of us.
My answer to myself was...… yes.

[QUOTE=DevilDog72;140451596]Interesting thread. To me it has always revolved around this one question. Am I willing to take the life of another person? When I taught the LTC class my first question to my new class was...are you willing to take the life of another human?

Many Vets including myself being one decided that the day which ever branch of service we elected to join .. we were taught to kill either directly or through support of those who did .. One of my jobs in the service was scheduling sorties .. You drop a bomb in a conflict and people are killed .. I didn't pull the trigger .. but I did have an effect on those killed ..

Veterans have a better grasp I think on what it takes to pull that trigger then most of the general population ..

Stay out of south Chicago

Run real fast

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John

"Anyway, back to training, does the ability to shoot small groups in what the quoted poster refers to as 'square range' shooting, mean that you are able to protect yourself on the street?"

Most training, even at the big money academies, too often times has nothing to do with reality... Go over to YouTube and LiveLeak and watch the videos on gunfights and robberies. Active Self Protection on YouTube has a LOT of these and most of his annalists is very good.

You have a beautiful range...just what is needed.... If you could find a small group of like minded people you can put on small scenario shoots the object would be to beat the scenario not each other. Who does it best is not object but who survives is... I've been running shoots like this monthly since 1991. Get a table and chairs to simulate a restaurant. An old car to shoot out of like in a car jacking... Do role playing...have to converse with the targets.

Bob

Concerning the decision and will to kill, hunting.

All of us who eat animals indirectly kill them. Cutting out the invisible middlemen who do this job for you and killing them yourself enhances your appreciation for life and steels you for doing it.

I’m not saying that a father’s or mother’s instinct to protect a child isn’t enough motivation to kill when necessary. There are many factors that go into the decision, and hunting could be helpful.

Just buying, possessing or carrying a gun implies the will to kill, but in truth it is far from the legal, moral and spiritual commitment necessary to do so.

Apologies to the “shoot to stoppers” who think they won’t have to kill someone.

Having recently returned from a 50 year Army reunion, I can say that the statement about the Army is just typical USMC braggadocio. Not funny, when I reflect upon the lives and blood lost on a hill in Southeast Asia.

training, and reacting the way you are trained play and important part in surviving a battle.

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Carpriver.

Regarding training for an "unavoidable emergency," for that's what this subforum is about, wouldn't it be imprudent to regularly train with handgun mechanism #1 yet EDC mechanism #2? The best - worst- example is myself.

1. My EDC is an SP101 three-inch barrel. I've had the hammer altered to force double action only. For longer range shooting, were the target far enough away to allow more deliberate shooting, sharp edge of off-hand side of hammer has been beveled to allow me to revert to a single action mode - only by starting hammer via trigger, following it up by completing cocking hammer with off-hand of two-handed grip. Holster is high, canted cross-draw.

2. My four-inch SP101 is altered to be the same. Holster is high cross-draw Bianchi CD-127. While a nice combination, discomfort in the woods high.

3. Hiking, woods walking, and anytime I'm in one of the state or national forests that surround my home, I carry a Freedom Arms Model 97. Holster is cross-draw with safety strap secured to holster body with stud.
***
I have a problem. In the woods I am comfortable with the small powerfully loaded 45 Colt single action that is slow to get shot #1 fired. EDC I am comfortable with SP101 while being extremely uncomfortable carrying it in the woods. The four-inch SP101 is my attempt to overcome the anxiety of a small cartridge while maintaining EDC's mode of operation.

Having typed that, I strongly prefer my Model 97s compared to double action revolvers because they are much easier to cock and shoot, despite extreme difference in what happens when hammers are dropped, especially when MCTD triggers arthritis.

So in that "unavoidable emrgency," what will my anxiety cause me to do - double action draw-and-fire or fire via single action mode? And which revolver am I carrying? Since I've never had such an experience, I continue to carry and use mutually incompatible [revolver] mechanisms. I am certain I gotta get out of this situation because . . . . this incompatibility could get me - and any other person who carries with such a basic incompatibility - injured or worse.