I need some Pepto Bismol as it is getting pretty deep and nauseating in here

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Still Running Against the Wind

I normally stay clear of this part of the forum, I just don't operate at this level of intensity. This ones got me thinking of selling all my guns but my deer rifle and taking up golf.

My favorite part of this sub forum is the things I read about it on other forums

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Retired Career Security Guard

It seems to me that a righteous defender should shoot to the head for the third shot WITHOUT evaluating, as long as the assailant is still standing. If the assailant is actually incapacitated, why is he still standing? Furthermore, can the righteous defender make a competent evaluation without compromising his or others' safety, while waiting for the assailant to fall, or display definitive signs of death or tactical incapacitation? How long does it take an MD to determine death? These are not issues that should be carefully evaluated in the middle of a gunfight.

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Formerly Model520Fan

You two are saying the same thing.

Hang on, lemme just bust out my "Big Dictionary of Gun Terms"

It's a narrow, specific thing. If you are having trouble understanding what it is, then ask. If you just want to cause trouble, I recommend the kids' table (ARforum).

Couple things.

(1) Because he's raising his hands, turning around, and yelling "Stop, I give up!".

(2) Expert witnesses have frequently been called upon to explain the "extra couple hits", or the occasional "behind the midline" shot. But it's better to not need them.

(3) It's typical for juries to understand the "extra couple hits" in the heat of the moment--but there's a ton of people that just dump every round they have when doing what they call "training".

(4) It doesn't take a lot of slowing down to do. But there's a ton of just trash shooters that think something magical happens when you push from .3 to .25-second splits.

There's a ton of garbage these days, I don't know why I bother participating anymore (and I've cut way back). Quality threads are almost nonexistent, and even when someone posits something worth discussing, it degenerates into this tripe.

PS, with the exception of pistolforum and maybe a couple of the Reddits, I don't know of any forums that aren't dumpster fires.

I'm sorry Wise_A, but at the risk of getting a ding, I can't help but note that the tone of a lot of your "wise" responses contribute to and/or provoke the lack of civility you seem to be lamenting.

I don't know if that tone is intentional, or if it is just due to a lack of awareness - because we often can't "hear" how we are coming across. But either way, there it is.

Remember, whenever one points a finger there are three more pointing back.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Don't overthink it. What you are assessing is whether the assailant is still standing or is in fact already going down, or surrendering, or fleeing.

What that assessment is preventing is an incapacitated or otherwise neutralized assailant continuing to be shot once he or she is no longer a threat.

You're shooting to stop the threat, and once the threat is gone, you need to stop shooting.

Exactly. We're talking about maybe a 1/10th of a second looking over the front sight blade to assess the need for the shot / next shot. As opposed to just mag dumping until the slide locks back.

I'm not lamenting a lack of civility.

I'm lamenting trashposts.

Forums overly constrained by civility drown in muck. We don't even have a downvote system.

I don't care if someone is right or wrong, or disagrees, so long as they at least make an effort to post something worthwhile.

"Forums overly constrained by civility" - is that what you were talking about when you said all the other forums are dumpster fires?

Seems like a misuse of a narrow, specifically defined term to me

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Nah, they're just swirling, self-sustaining vortexes of stupid. Same deal--low-effort posts, lack of quality contributions. Lots of just general dumb echo-chamber stuff.

The two that I mentioned both have cultures that are way less tolerant than we are here, and as a result, are pretty easygoing and polite. The population is more homogeneous.

BB57: OK. I got your point. I'm not that fast, anyway.

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Formerly Model520Fan

I don't think anyone takes it seriously in the perspective of actually stopping a fight--more of a footnote to Ellifritz stats, or something to fling up in a caliber war, like when people durr-hurr-durr about 12-ga and .44/.45 muzzles.

Now, I can see DHC's point regarding muzzle blast and whathaveyou. There have definitely been some instances of .357 Magnums in enclosed spaces having a "discouraging" effect on individuals, sometimes to the detriment of the user's hearing! But I would point out that, even on SBR-length ARs, I haven't seen any professionals out there using linear compensators.

Hence, it wouldn't factor enough to change my mind about a cartridge, even if said cartridge promised not to blow my eardrums out and came with no drawbacks. And .357 Sig, as a rather pricey bottleneck cartridge, definitely has some drawbacks.

Well, I always knew what it was, I just didn't know that there was a name for it. My "don't **** with me face" also known as my Keith44spl face has produced many piss-a-cological stops without even having to allude to the fact that I might have a readily available firearm.

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Forum consigliere

^^^ AKA "my poopin' face".

We used to call that face “giving the hairy eyeball”. My personal observation is that caliber sometimes matters as well with causing someone to stop. Specifically, wielding a 12 gauge 870 while having a commanding presence and the right verbiage has prevented a few potential shootouts in my experience.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

How about the old "racking the slide of pump shotgun" makes them tremble in fear and run away!

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Still Running Against the Wind

I have that app on my phone. Who needs a gun?

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Just checking; how many angels really CAN dance on the head of a pin?

1) I am thankful for every suspect who decided he didn't want to be shot, and I never stopped to ask their opinion of my ammunition.

2) While marking the passing this week of a former coworker who participated in the arrest of Charlie Starkweather (Google it) I was reminded that after many rounds had been expended on both sides Starkweather surrendered when he was hit by flying glass from the rear window of the stolen Packard (Google it) he was driving and was convinced he had been shot. The ammo was military M2 hardball, but he was suffering only from a small cut on his ear and another on his neck.

I'd call that a psychological stop.

RIP Ray.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

The NRA's "Armed Citizen" column often includes stories of self defense weapons being shown and criminal activity ending forthwith. It can and does happen. Just don't count on it.

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Come and take it!!

I’ve seen a couple that actually lost bladder control.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

A couple of us on the forum knew or were mentored by the Detectives that investigated the homicides.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

I don't think people who came up in the Internet era can appreciate what it was like to work a spree killer before DNA, security cameras, 24/7 real time news coverage and instantaneous communication. Knowing what it took with the tools available in the 70s and 80s I can only imagine the challenges 20 years prior. Old school shoe leather police work.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I'm glad my old department made it simple.
Only actual shootings were recognized.

Simple term....."DF".

Deadly Force.

Whatever will make the threat stop or go away is all I need / require and I honestly hope it would be "psychological" but am prepared for the alternative.

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Is that a gun No a lifesaver

That implies that merely showing a weapon would defuse most situations.. Yet in many states showing a weapon can get you arrested for brandishing !! I will not draw my weapon unless I fear bodily harm and if I do have my weapon in hand there will be no vocal commands at that point .. All vocalizing will happen before I fell the need to protect myself with my weapon !!

I can't think of a state where unjustifiably brandishing a firearm is legal.

And I'm pretty sure all of them recognize "this person communicated their intent to harm me, and was capable of doing so, but deadly force was not yet necessary".

I would also point out that vocalizing can be helpful proving your self-defense case (presuming you live someplace where the burden of proof is on you). Aside from the whole thing about how it's better to not have to shoot some mook, even if said mook qualifies for a shooting.

Situation #1: "I heard three shots, and when I turned to look, there was a body on the ground and that guy had a gun out."

Situation #2: "I heard a man yell, 'Back off!', and then 'Drop the knife or I'll shoot!'. A few seconds later, I heard three shots. That's when I saw a body on the ground, and that guy had a gun out."

I know which one I'd prefer.

EDITED for atrocious grammar a long-dead nun would yell at me for. And yes, I'm dating myself by saying the nun would yell.

FWIW your post implies that the assailant who is being scared off by the sight of your gun is going to then go to the police and file a complaint against you for "brandishing" your gun at them.

How great are the chances of them wanting to attract that kind of attention from law enforcement? And how are they going to believably explain the circumstances that lead up to your unjustified "brandishing"? Even if it does get to that point it is their word against yours and you're innocent until proven guilty.

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, but I'd also rather have to prove that there was good reason for pointing a gun at an assailant than to have to prove that I had to shoot (possibly kill) said assailant.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Uh...they kinda do that stuff all the time. First to the phone, and all that.

...and that is where YOU need to be first to the phone. Like dialing 911 as soon as they disengage.

As I said before, I'd much rather need to defend why I had to threaten to shoot someone than need to defend why I had to actually shoot them.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

The first two paragraphs of your post make it sound an awful lot like you're, well, dismissing the idea of a would-be criminal or troublemaker calling the police to report that you waved a gun at them.

Then I gave a mistaken impression. I'm sure it happens. But I'd also be willing to bet it is even more rare than actual SD shootings.

As per the statistics cited earlier of the estimated half million DGUs a year, only something like 7% of them actually end up with the gun being discharged and the other 93% of the time just presenting the weapon ends the attack.

That's up to 465 thousand times a year. If it were common for those assailants scared off by the presentation of a weapon to contact police and report the defender for "brandishing" there would be tens of thousands of instances per year. If even 1% of them chose that route it would be over 46 thousand such cases a year.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the MSM would be making a big deal of it if there were tens of thousands of those kinds of cases. After all, people being charged with "brandishing" and threatening others with a gun fits their anti-gun agenda.

I'm not seeing those headlines. So while I'm sure it does happen, I'm equally sure it is pretty rare. Most criminals don't want any contact with an LEO if they can avoid it.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Headshots with a 45 end situations.

If you draw you fire. It ain't a toy to waive around trying to spook your aggressor.

Period

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R/S
J.D.

No period.

You certainly shouldn't draw without the intent to fire but if they back down before your sights are on target you need to be able to stop

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Retired Career Security Guard

Sights. Who uses sights in self defense at CCW distance. 21 feet is draw/clear holster/roll wrist/fire. Never gets into a sight usable position. 3 extra feet of movement is a waste of time in a life and death situation.

Side note on that for all skeptics. Go find a cowboy action guy and play showdown with him. You'll never get halfway to your sights before he peels a round of 45LC off and ends the situation.

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R/S
J.D.

Interesting, Every. Single. Time I've ever had to draw on someone I distinctly remember focusing on the sights.

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Retired Career Security Guard

My methods are different than most. Based on the old west days. When they rode the desert back then it was life and death so they figured out how to survive every time. A bobcat or pissed off rattle snake is just as much a problem as a two legged varmint. All three are fast as hell when they are damn near in your lap by the time you see it coming. Draw/clear/ discharge in shortest time/distance possible.

Fast and trained for the soft spot "head shots". They can't wear body armor on their head.

Remember I am in AZ not one of the Communist States. we have one hell of alot of degenerates on the street in certain areas. They can be creative to say the least.

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R/S
J.D.

...Psychological Stop...aka a Retreat...

...you gotta be a Devil Dog...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Speaking of dumpster fires.....

Don't know if you've noticed but the "old west days" are over. Have been for a long time.

Being from Arizona, perhaps you've heard of Wyatt Earp? He was a staunch advocate of taking your time and using your sights. Even back in the "old west days".

Yippee Kai Yai Ay

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Retired Career Security Guard

Well that's different for cops. They are supposedly allowed to brandish to INTIMIDATE.

Citizens are not authorized to brandish to intimidate. We must FIRE if we draw to be justified.

The old west still lives. We live it everyday in AZ. Folks still have horses at the house and all that good stuff. Just because it's dead in your town doesn't mean much to us out here

Just because some embrace the modern metropolitan society does not mean we all do.

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J.D.

Hilarious.

I was thinking in Arizona you were allowed a defensive presentation of a pistol to stop a threat. Not just case law, but called out in the statutes. But, I might be wrong.

I agree with Smoke's post above. If you draw your weapon, it should be with the intent to shoot, but that doesn't mean you have to shoot. You could draw your pistol and the BG could either throw his hands up to surrender or run off. If you shot the BG under those circumstances, I'm thinking you'd be in some deep excrement.

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Vegan by proxy.

There's a brandishing statute. That will create a massive grey area legal battle for anyone that tries to use that as a defense. Thus I state it as brandishing is not authorized in my defense course. All brandishing does is allows the other person to shoot at you. Let that sink in a minute.

Straight up if you have time to think and asses between the time you draw and you fire then you were NOT in a life and death 21 foot or less situation that justified drawing your side arm. That said... I don't care how damn far away they are if they are pointing a gun in my direction they are a threat. Which is where I'd agree with the Earp sight use noted above.

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J.D.

The gun is a last resort and when it's pulled, it's going to be fired. But if you aren't in your home and the perp hauls tail and no damage or harm has been done, that's a good thing to me.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Why does the word dumpster fire keep going through my mind?

With all due respect you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You need to put down your gun and you need to actually learn what Arizona law says for you pick it back up.

This is taken DIRECTLY from the Arizona Revised Code.

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

 

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Retired Career Security Guard

I know the law. It's basic.

Arizona law says you point a gun at me I am cleared to drop you on the spot. Do I look forward to that. Hell no. Rather not deal with the whole mess. Fortunately I am not the victim type so I don't wind up into situations with aggressors.

Sounds like you need to learn true self defense. Not the brandishing to scare people. Your advice will get someone killed. Might as well carry a gun you whittled out of a bar of soap.

Why would you advocate pointing a gun at anyone to threaten them. When that opens up the ability of their opposition to shoot at will.

You might want to stay in Colorado or move to Kaliforniastan. Point a gun at a man in AZ and life gets very real very fast.

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J.D.

Wait. You're claiming you teach people? For money?

Look upon what ye have wrought. This dude is in your forum, posting stuff.

He's a Troll. He's got to be. There's no way that somebody could actually be that ignorant of the Law

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Retired Career Security Guard