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Old 01-18-2020, 11:06 PM
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Default A question about the rubber 000 buck.

I have a box of 410 rubber 000 buck and I occasionally carry a couple of rounds of it in my Governor when out on wilderness trails. While I was talking to a co-worker he brought up a good point that at close range it could still penetrate and become lethal. One of the points was that it would not show up on an X ray. Does any body have any practical experience with these rounds? I am thinking of getting a small 410 shotgun with a 14 inch barrel to tuck away in the bedroom.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:21 PM
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I don’t have experience with rubber buckshot but have nearly sixty years experience with x-rays.

Whether it would show on an x-ray or not would depend on the density of the rubber and the density of the tissue the shot is in and how much tissue you’re looking through. The short answer is it likely would show on an x-ray.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:23 PM
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I very much doubt that rubber buckshot could penetrate the skin, much less imbed itself in flesh, especially not out of .410 Revolver with a 2.5" Barrel such as the S&W Governor.

I've seen Ballistics Gel tests on YouTube featuring rubber buckshot, beanbag rounds, and even rubber slugs on YouTube. The most damage I've ever seen it do was leave a bit of a dent in the gel after it bounced off, and that was a 12 Gauge rubber slug.

I'm not putting down the Governor either, as I myself use a Taurus Judge for Home Defense, I'm just saying that you're greatly overestimating the capabilities of rubber buckshot.

Rubber buckshot is designed to be "less-than-lethal" and is commonly deployed by Law Enforcement to quell riots. If it were capable of penetrating human flesh, then obviously it would be far too great of a potential liability for Law Enforcement in any civilized nation to deploy against citizens. Rubber buckshot is designed to be a painful yet minimally harmful deterrent. Getting shot with it will sting like heck and leave visible welts on any bare skin that it strikes, but it won't imbed itself in skin, and even if it could, it most certainly wouldn't penetrate so deep that medical personnel would require an X-RAY to locate it.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:24 PM
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I use my Governor for personal protection in the MBR at night. I use the real deal .410 000 buck and .45LC. I also have my EDC weapon and extra mag nearby and ready as a backup.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:29 PM
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I've been experience with rubber rounds and bean bag rounds, and I've seen both used on people in the field. They break skin and cause some of the nastiest bruises I've ever seen outside of serious trauma, but calling them penetrators in any real capacity is laughable. Proven self defense rounds are cheaper and more effective.

Carrying these out in wilderness sounds really foreign to me. I'm an avid hunter and if I pull the trigger on anything it's to kill as quickly and humanely as possible; especially if that animal is presenting an unavoidable threat to my well-being. Try shooting a 15 pound goose with a 410 shell full of rubber shot and it will laugh at you. Shooting animals with rubber sounds iffy at best, but to each their own... allow me to regress.

I highly suggest using ammo with the capability to be lethal if self defense is you main concern.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:41 PM
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really interesting . never thought about it . good subject for discussion . thanks guys . i enjoyed it . kenny , texas
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
I'm not putting down the Governor either, as I myself use a Taurus Judge for Home Defense, I'm just saying that you're greatly overestimating the capabilities of rubber buckshot.
As well as the capabilities of the gun.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:26 AM
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Why would you carry a less than lethal round? Are you trying to annoy the bad guy?
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Old 01-19-2020, 03:15 AM
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This whole conversation astounds me. 410 pistols with rubber buckshot for defensive use? Whaaaaaaaat?

I see a fanged/clawed animal on a trail that wants to tear into me and I want to bruise it? Nah, not me. I’m gonna kill it.
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:04 AM
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I do not understand the use of less-than-lethal rounds for self-defense. For law enforcement, sometimes it is a good idea, but for an armed citizen?
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:11 AM
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About the only thing I could see rubber buckshot for in the defense roll would maybe be for aggressive dogs.
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Old 01-19-2020, 10:30 AM
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Why would you carry a less than lethal round? Are you trying to annoy the bad guy?
That would be my question.
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Old 01-19-2020, 11:16 AM
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I don't know anything about rubber buck shot. If i am going to drop the hammer then I'm not horsing around with gimmicks. I AM SHOOTING TO STOP! End of story
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Old 01-19-2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by andy52 View Post
About the only thing I could see rubber buckshot for in the defense roll would maybe be for aggressive dogs.
That's where I was. I have a friend who carries a Judge when taking his dog to the park (not a typical city park, more like a farm that was donated to the State in a will). I wouldn't want to kill someone's dog merely because the owner is too negligent to keep it under control, and maybe rubber buck would break up a fight- may be useful when the aggressive dog is approaching your dog, or even when both dogs are actively fighting (stray ball doesn't kill your dog too).

Nobody said you cannot carry another pistol for lethal purposes.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:39 PM
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I have had to educate a couple black bears over the last 10 years that were rading our bird feeders with 12ga rubber buck shot . Worked very well but beyound that I would never carry even 12ga rubber buck shoot in the wild or use on a bad guy .

You could guess even if a very close shoot from a 410 with rubebr buck shot might stop or slow a BG he still might kill you before going down and life to return loaded for you .

IF I have to draw on a BG I am shooting to stop a threat not play'n around with rubber buck shot . Now worry about a bear charge then you better have some stout 45 colt loads those chambers with a stout load of powder and a 250gr swc . Its not warning time !

IF NO grizzlies near your area then I would carry my 13 or 15 round 40sw and my typical reload . If big bear are around pack a 12ga with buck and slugs

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Old 01-19-2020, 01:25 PM
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If I remember correctly the "Special Purpose" 12 ga rubber ball loads, the 40mm rubber ball loads and the wooden block loads (knee knockers) were designed for crowd/riot control. None were designed for direct fire, but were designed to be fired into the ground and skipped into the lower extremities of the rioters. Concern was that the rounds could inflict fatal or substantial injuries upon direct fire.
Don't have any experience with the .410 loads. While use on aggressive dogs might seem like a good idea, I question how their use would be viewed by local authorities. Firearms are generally viewed as LETHAL FORCE tools and can only be utilized when you are in fear for your life, the life of others or serious physical harm.
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Old 01-19-2020, 02:19 PM
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My original purpose for the rubber buck was that on one of the trails I ride the primary threat is loose/wild dogs, coyote and other critters. I ride a recumbent trike that puts me at about 4 inches off the ground which is perfect meet and greet position for unrestrained pets. I do not relish the idea of killing anything, thinking that using those rounds may help scare off an aggressive critter. The Governor would have no more than 2 rubber rounds followed by something a lot more deadly.

I Just ordered a Charles Daley Honcho in 410 and was wondering on the practicality of those rounds in home defense in a small crowded house with lots of potential for collateral damage be it pets or other family members. I am not worried about hurting a bad guy, just hurting another family member due to over penetration.
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Old 01-19-2020, 03:36 PM
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I want to jump in here with a few thoughts. Less lethal has very limited applications in a home defense situation and I would never suggest it's use. Police applications always have an armed officer present to stop the threat when less lethal fails, a very frequent occurrence. I've seen people take blasts from less lethal shotgun blasts and it's clear that it hurts but I can't think of one where it actually stopped the offender. It's clear that less lethal hurts but most of the loads are so light, due to civil issues, that they are pretty ineffective. Using deadly force is something we all think about but it's not a pleasant experience and it will change your life, take it from me without further explanation.

People think too much about excessive penetration. Many shots miss their intended target in the heat of battle and those shots are no different than a pass through. Get a safety plan in place with those that could be in your home. Make dry runs so your loved ones know where to be and know this practice is essential. They don't need to be scared, just prepared, and dry runs will show them how to be ready for he unexpected. Do as you are trained and know the training will mentally prepare you......"I thought this would happen and this is what I need to do"

You need to step up and prepare yourself with an adequate firearm and ammunition, and be prepared to use them if the situation presents. Situations unfold very quickly in most instances and you can't handicap yourself with an expectation that you will have time to fire several times. Timing is critical and you may be stopped by an offender if you do not act quickly and efficiently. Over penetration is an issue but your loved ones should be in positions where you can and should avoid shooting, "know your target and beyond". My post could go on and on but I think I expressed my thoughts. Best wishes to all and please consider this advice.
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Old 01-19-2020, 03:59 PM
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Part of the problem here is the understandable desire not to kill something/someone that should not be killed.

The other part of the problem is not having made the decision to kill something that needs to be stopped with lethal force.

Unfortunately, as a civilian defender it’s hard to have it both ways at the same time.

I choose to err on the side of my continued existence rather than that of an aggressor.

Others may choose differently, but I often think they make the decision somewhat in isolation from all those who love and depend on the decision-maker to stay alive.
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
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Part of the problem here is the understandable desire not to kill something/someone that should not be killed.

The other part of the problem is not having made the decision to kill something that needs to be stopped with lethal force.

Unfortunately, as a civilian defender itís hard to have it both ways at the same time.

I choose to err on the side of my continued existence rather than that of an aggressor.

Others may choose differently, but I often think they make the decision somewhat in isolation from all those who love and depend on the decision-maker to stay alive.
Law Enforcement Officers share your same thoughts about not wanting to take a life. The media paints a terrible picture of the police and I worked in that field for over 40 years. I will tell you that it's a terrible experience to be involved in a deadly force situation and it's something an individual has to learn how to live with. The thing to remember is that you are not the aggressor and the decision on deadly force is made by the aggressor. They have the choice to stop their actions and change what they are doing.............you don't have that choice. They make the decision for you and you are force to react to what they cause you to do.

It makes no difference if you law enforcement or civilian, when you are forced to defend your life or the lives of others. It's a situation you are placed in and you deal with it efficiently as you have been trained to do or you hesitate and deal with the end result.

I had hundreds and hundreds of people at gun point during my career but most stopped their actions and resolved the situation without forcing me to use deadly force. They made those decisions and I was only reacting to their actions and their decision.

Train like your life depends on it..............it does.
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Old 01-19-2020, 09:33 PM
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I would really hate to kill a dog. If it’s necessary, alright, but if I have a multiple shot weapon I would try a rubber round first if possible.
It wouldn’t be the first trigger pull.
If it’s a dog or something less lethal, you probably will have time to cycle one shot ahead.
Just my 2cents
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Old 01-19-2020, 11:13 PM
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I would really hate to kill a dog. If itís necessary, alright, but if I have a multiple shot weapon I would try a rubber round first if possible.
It wouldnít be the first trigger pull.
If itís a dog or something less lethal, you probably will have time to cycle one shot ahead.
Just my 2cents
Not the two different off leash dogs that have bitten me. Less than two seconds from non-aggression to drawing my blood. I would have been fine with killing that kind of aggressive animal.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:02 AM
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About the only thing I could see rubber buckshot for in the defense roll would maybe be for aggressive dogs.
Although I believe strongly that dogs are man's best friend, an aggressive dog that is loose in the wild needs to be shot, with copper jacketed lead. PERIOD! Rubber buckshot need not apply.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:33 PM
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Why would you carry a less than lethal round? Are you trying to annoy the bad guy?
You beat me to it! I mean if you are going to carry a gun for self defense then why all the concern with its impact on the perpetrator?

If someone or something attacks you your objective SHOULD be to decisively end the threat....not try to protect the threat from harm.
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:47 AM
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Look, I don't WANT to kill anyone be it man or beast. However, I see absolutely no value in this type of round. If I have a bear that is harassing my home, I might use rubber rounds, but only if my wife is standing next to me with a real round loaded in her gun. If I'm on the trail, there will be no rubber rounds with me under any circumstances.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:58 AM
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One of the points was that it would not show up on an X-ray.
It will show up on an x-ray.
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Old 01-22-2020, 12:09 PM
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First, it is not less-than-lethal. The term is less-lethal. The term 'less-than-lethal' is not used by anyone who trains with those type rounds and knows its use.
Second, sure it will penetrate skin. Even the plastic wadding in a shotgun will penetrate the skin and can kill or cause great bodily harm at close enough range. We worked a case where a homeowner had cut off shotgun shells to remove the shot but left the wadding. His intention was to scare some kids who were playing on his property. He came around a garage, confronted the kids, and hit one in the back at about 10 ft. It penetrated the kid's shirt and fully penetrated his skin. The wadding could be seen in the hole but it was fully embedded in the back muscle. Now what would the results have been if he had hit the kid in the face, eyes, throat or a major artery. Less-than-lethal? Mostly likely totally lethal. The homeowner was convicted of aggravated battery with a firearm. Had the kid died the charge would have been murder.
That wadding has a lot larger area than a rubber ball. The wadding larger frontal area would have limited penetration.
If you deploy a firearm against another then it is considered deadly force. Doesn't matter if you only intended to scare someone or run them off. Joe Biden is an idiot when he said just shoot a shotgun in the air. That is use of deadly force.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:10 PM
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I have no desire to shoot anything when I’m out on a walk.
If I do need to shoot something, I want it to stay shot.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:41 PM
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Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was carrying less lethal ammo when he was murdered.
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Old 01-22-2020, 05:53 PM
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I just don't see the point. IF things are bad enough to deploy a weapon, then it is likely bad enough you need lethal force. FWIW, shooting at a person with rubber bullets is still considered lethal force. Pepper spray for dogs.
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Old 01-22-2020, 07:21 PM
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If your main concern is aggressive dogs, and you donít want to kill a dog, then the rubber rounds make sense. If a couple of loads of rubber buckshot donít deter a dog, then the real thing is coming right up.
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Old 01-22-2020, 10:48 PM
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I watched a video that Paul Harrell did using full size shot guns and some of the less lethal loads, the meat target did not survive. Looks like bird shot would be better option to minimize over penetration in the house.
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Old 01-23-2020, 02:16 PM
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I watched a video that Paul Harrell did using full size shot guns and some of the less lethal loads, the meat target did not survive. Looks like bird shot would be better option to minimize over penetration in the house.
Yet birdshot is a terrible choice for a SD round, even at 21ft. A leather jacket pretty much handles birdshot.
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Old 01-24-2020, 03:38 PM
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I watched a video that Paul Harrell did using full size shot guns and some of the less lethal loads, the meat target did not survive. Looks like bird shot would be better option to minimize over penetration in the house.
My own testing of #6 birdshot from a riot choke 870 @ a mere 21ft showed almost no penetration of a beef rib cage covered in just 2 layers of denim. The same shot with #4 buck obliterated the rib cage. So no, I do not trust birdshot to stop a determined attacker.
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Old 01-24-2020, 07:22 PM
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A question about the rubber 000 buck. A question about the rubber 000 buck. A question about the rubber 000 buck. A question about the rubber 000 buck. A question about the rubber 000 buck.  
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So what would be a good trade-off load in 410 using a 14 inch smooth bore with no choke? I don't want to go threw several walls, I was thinking somewhere around #4 shot. I plan on only using 2.5 inch shells, that way there is no risk of mixing things up and blowing up my governor.
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Old 01-25-2020, 10:06 AM
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You might try some of theses........



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Old 01-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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You might try some of theses........

Whew! Never seen those. That looks like it'd hurt a bit.
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:27 PM
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I already had a box of those, I watched a video of the damage they do. Close to the same as 000 buck with some scattered collateral damage from the BB's. They are currently in my non NFA items (after testing the Charles Daly HONCHO yesterday with 000 buck I bought the second one the shop ordered), but I would prefer something less destructive (I don't need three projectiles traveling threw about several walls into the neighbors house). The only difference is that the 000 buck in 2.5 inch have 4 balls of 36 caliber and those replace one solid projectile with a selection of BB's for the last disc.
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Old 01-26-2020, 04:44 PM
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I considered the same ammo question you are puzzling over presently when I bought a Governor for HD. The HONCHO ammo and concerns of unwanted harm may be overthought.

This YouTube video (17min) by Paul Harrell will show you that your concerns can be laid to rest...
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