In watching some of the 2020 SHOT Show videos, I am seeing/hearing the 5.7x28 being touted as a self-defense round. What is your opinion on this round?

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Judge control not gun control!

The original concept was for a personal defense round that would defeat soft body armor. Of course, that was with armor piercing bullets, something we in the US are generally not allowed to acquire. Will it work against non-armored targets with appropriate bullets? Well,I wouldn't want to be shot with one, and apparently the Secret Service finds it worthwhile.

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Pisgah

Fired out of the PDW with a longer barrel, as originally designed for it?

Or, fired out of the pistol, designed as a companion sidearm for someone carrying the PDW?

I suspect that fired out of a short barreled pistol, using expanding JHP loads, it's probably going to be similarly (or at least) as effective as using a .22MAG fired out of a 6 1/2" revolver barrel.

A friend of mine is a retired military surgeon, and he kept his hand in teaching for both DOD and now a civilian fed agency. After the Ft Hood case he told me he'd been in contact with some of his 'military doctor' friends familiar with the Ft Hood shooting. He said their consensus opinion was that the small caliber pistol round had been so effective because some of the victims were caught in confined areas (i.e. hallway), and were unable to escape, allowing the shooter to inflict multiple hits on them.

Now, in addition to my friend having been a military surgeon, he's also served as a longtime firearms instructor for both private (major commercial school) and LE students, so I asked him his informed opinion on the 5.7 round, fired from a pistol, as a defensive caliber/weapon. He was unequivocal in his preference for a 9, .40 or .45 as a defensive/service caliber, over the 5.7 in a pistol.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Says who, Ruger or FN?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably gun and ammo companies looking to capitalize on the imagination (and wallets) of the general gun buying public.

Same old, same old.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I think that while it certainly has the characteristics of a viable self-defense cartridge, there isn't much of a reason to choose it over other established self-defense cartridges, not that I'm aware of anyway.

On paper, 5.7x28 should be able to generate remote wound tracks due to the high velocity it's capable of achieving, but I've seen my share of Ballistics Gel Tests conducted on the cartridge, and it did no more damage in Gel than that of the bullet itself.
It's also supposedly good for penetrating light body armor, but only with armor piercing ammo which is illegal for sale to civilians, and there are already other handgun cartridges which can defeat light body armor for whomever considers that to be necessary.

Still, it's an interesting cartridge, and one of these days I might even buy a Ruger-57 once the price settles.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Ruger referred to it as a self-defense round.

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Judge control not gun control!

Is there more concern for overpenetration (through and through) with a 5.7x28 than with 9mm / 40 / 45?

What's the muzzle blast like?
I know that probably sounds like a stupid comment, given the gravity of the intended use.
But, if you shoot something with a horrific blast and blinding fireball coming out of the muzzle, especially in a dark environment w/o ear protection, your sensory perception of the immediate surroundings is likely kaput.
Sorry if that exposes my ignorance, but it just seems like a factor that is ignored in the ongoing debate of self defense cartridges.

I'm reminded of when S&W introduced the 22 Jet over 50 years ago. Seasoned shooters found it objectionable for anything but controlled range use with good lighting (preferably outdoors), and adequate ear and eye protection.

Jim

I've never understood the concern over muzzle flash disorienting the shooter considering that the guy on the receiving end is likely much worse for wear.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

9mm costs about 1/3 as much to buy per round, is more available in more weights/loadings, has many more guns available for choice. Without AP ammo available to US civilians, I don’t believe 5.7 is armor piercing.

In the unlikely event you have to shoot someone wearing armor with civilian 5.7 or any other defensive cartridge, aim above or below the armor.

No advantage whatsoever.

Any round can be a "self defense" round. If all you have is grandpas top break .22 and you use it during a home invasion its a "self defense round". Thats subjective.

Of course most of us know when we say "self defense" round we mean 380/38SPL and higher caliber.

Does the 5.7 have a value as a self defense round....I say no. Its a cool round meant for a cool gun but the cost of both the guns and the round is prohibitive.

Also its a powerful round and the risk of over penetration with a fast flying small round would be much greater than with a "typical" round.

Yes, but...
The 5.7 is a hot round. I tried the FiveSeven and one negative observation was the grenade like detonation of the 5.7mm. Significant muzzle blast/flash as well as some perceived flash from the blowback as the breech block came back. I didn’t feel confident with the system, especially since a FiveSeven setup was going to cost $2500 (ammo+mags+holster+red dot).

I am not saying the FiveSeven is dangerous but it is not for me. The muzzle flash seems likely to make things unpleasant in confined spaces or at night. Revolver guys don’t let this bother them as much, but there is some flash.

On the effectiveness, there were stories on the P90 PDW not being terribly effective in Peruvian Embassy assault and I one or two Texas SWAT shootings. The 5.7 is not something I would want to be facing, just like the criticism of the .30 Carbine. The cartridge was made for carbine/PDW length barrels.

Here’s a video-

Wow, I've got to admit that is one heck of a muzzle-flash! I wasn't expecting it to be that big or that bright.

Still, I think the guy you'd be shooting at would have it much worse that you, especially at close-range. You may be seeing spots, and your ears would be ringing, but he'd most likely be blind, def, on fire, and with a structurally superfluous new orifice leaking vital fluid.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

As an RSO I see a few of these come into our indoor range from time to time. They do have a very loud report as well as a huge muzzle flash. For those two reasons alone I would reject that round as a good personal defense or home protection firearrm. It was designed for a different purpose and oddly enough, LEO agencies in my area are ridding themselves of their PS90's in favor of other better suited calibers.

I had an FN PS90 for a while a few years ago. Muzzle blast and flash weren’t bad in the longer barrel, and you could shoot it until you got tired with the 50 round magazine. It was a fun range toy but I couldn’t figure out any real practical use for it. Obviously, it wasn’t a varmint or big game rifle. Maybe ok for coyotes if fairly close. As a defensive weapon it seemed little better than a .22 Mag and you can’t get the AP ammo that might make it more useful. It was fine for plinking but awfully expensive. I finally let it go and I haven’t missed it.

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Everybody could shoot

I always heard recoil was very low. Maybe a good choice for elderly or someone that has wrist/hand issues?

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Glenn
FAS1 SAFE

Maybe, likely influenced by the platform you are using. The FN FiveSeven recoil impulse is there but it is fast and minimal IIRC. I noted some exaggerated muzzle flip, but even that is manageable and would be tameable with some continued training. The flash and noise are the big signature items. Less than a true flash bang, but somewhere close.

I say maybe because the FN FiveSeven has an unusual Frame mounted safety. My short fingers were not going to reliably activate or de-activate it. As a two handed gun, there are certainly European military applications of the frame safety. it would be a two handed gun for most older folks, as the safety is not very proud either.
FN Five-seveN(R) | FN(R)

The Ruger 57 has a useable rear safety, based on a fondle-only session. I did find the front to back dimension too much, seemed more than the FN FiveSeven. Not in a hurry to shoot one.

The FN trigger is Glock plastic-y and mushy, but not terrible. I would describe it as better than any of the Gen 1 SW MP autos, a bit smoother. Comparable to the best stock Glock triggers, but more creep. That is also based on just a few guns. The trigger would work fine for most older folks I expect (I have some arthritis already and mild nerve damage in my hands).

The other plus is the FN was weight, as in airsoft or toy-feeling light weight. It may weigh the same unloaded as 640 and loaded as a Model 19, but it is stoked with ~20 rounds. The balance is awesome, just a bit biased to the rear when loaded. I cannot recall another revolver or high cap service pistol that feels as weightless. Almost no one should have a problem aiming correctly.

All in all, I would not buy a 5.7 cartridge gun until shooting one. The flash is serious and you should experience it before buying. That said, the limited supply of FiveSevens has kept the used prices pretty high.

The round can deliver hydrostatical damage paths in remote areas of the body, far from the PSC would indicate. Like a rifle round. It can be much more effective over slower subsonic pistol rounds like 9 Luger and .45 APC.

The rounds available to civies, though are called sporting rounds and are not that good for defense. The top tier military and operator loads illegal to own by the public are tremendously more effective.

I'm not sure why there is such interest in this round (5.7x28mm) when 22TCM is available. From what I can find the 22TCM is about 300-400fps faster from a pistol length barrel with the same weight bullet. The ammo is less expensive (about 25% or more) and the combo weapons available from RIA can also fire 9mm with a barrel and recoil spring change. Barrels are available for Glock 9mm pistols that can fire the slightly shorter 22TCM 9R ammo. Additionally, since the 22TCM magazines are the same size as 38 Super magazines a barrel for this caliber can be fitted to an RIA pistol and it can also fire 38 Super Comp ammo, but not the actual semi-rim 38 Super cartridge.

Well, at least it is centerfire. The magazines hold lots of rounds. As with everything else, shot placement will be very critical. With all that velocity, hitting a liquid filled chamber (head, heart, lung, spleen, stomach) might be pretty impressive. I have known several officers that carried them but none of them had to shoot anybody with one. Now that Ruger is coming out with one, I might try one just for the heck of it.

Good old Autocorrect.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

My next door neighbor got a 5.7 upper and said it was to be his wife's deer rifle. I cringed. Never shot at a deer with it thankfully. He also had a 3x12 scope on a circuit judge and he cut a universal M1 carbine barrel off to 16" with a hacksaw and put a 3x9 scope.

I went down the 5.7 rabbit hole, basically from listening to old hands on this forum. The discussion turned to hearing loss from firing a .357 magnum in the home.

That started me searching for an alternative. My primary HD weapon is my suppressed PS90. I'm fortunate that I live in a state that doesn't have ridiculous nanny laws. I have mine loaded with SB 193 - stupidly expensive:
YouTube



YouTube

While I also own a FiveseveN, it's primarily a range toy. They weren't designed to host suppressors and one customer service rep told me they get most of their repair requests because people somehow screwed them up by using them. I have no idea if this particular individual knew what he was talking about but that's what he said.

My experiments with SS198 (Police/military ammo) indicates nasty yet not too deep wound channels:
YouTube


I am intrigued by Ruger's offering and wish them much luck with it. I'm hearing good things about it.

As evidenced by FT Hood getting 5.7mm can be lethal. I suspect with enough searching you can find other incidents where the 5.7 produced lethal or effective results.

If you are LE you might want to contact the FBI firearms division and see what they have available. I've heard rummint of a report on 5.7mm effectiveness. As I cannot provide a copy, I will not comment on it.

TFB did some videos and articles on the 5.7 and 4.6 (HK's PDW round). It includes some interesting charts and a link to a video of clear gel testing. You might find it informative:

TFB Round Table: Is 5.7x28mm an Effective Self-Defense Round? -The Firearm Blog

Dr Gary K Roberts, noted ballistics (and controversial) expert, has commented on 5.7mm He pulled down some of his content over the years so I don't have a link for you. He was not a fan of the round.

The NIJ classified SS192 and SS197 5.7mm as a special threat rounds like select .40, .45, 9mm and .357 SIG rounds. Certain soft armor is rated to stop it. For example AT Armor's AT11 level II claims to be able to stop SS197.
AT Armor AT11 Concealment Armor- Level II NIJ06
So 5.7 armor penetration appears to have some caveats.

It must be noted that NATO didn't adopt a 5.7 or 46 mm PDW or any PDW for that matter. Having worked with NATO and Non-NATO Conventional forces for the last 5 1/2 years, I never saw a 5.7mm or 4.6mm PDW. They mostly carried 5.56mm rifles. Also the European LE ( German, French, Polish) didn't carry 5.7s either. They carried pistols (9MM) and the Germans had MP5s. So the folks that asked for the 5.7mm didn't adopt them. Yes, Wikipedia mentions 40+ nations, probably their special operations forces or special purpose forces(PSD?).

There is a very limited number of 5.7mm weapons on the market, if the offerings fit your needs and shooting style, great. I'm not tracking a Compact 2.0 sized 5.7mm on the market.

On the the lethality piece, I find myself wondering if we are seeing a repeat of the M855 angle of attack issue. Some 5.7 users might be getting great effects on target due to the firearm/ammo combo and others might be getting failures due to ice-picking. Thats pure speculation on my part, but I've noticed that there seems to be two very radical camps on the effectiveness of 5.7mm.

I'm interested to see what the new 5.7 JHPs from Speer are going to do.

Personally, I would not adopt 5.7mm as a self defense round given the current state of the 5.7 ammo/firearms and that I don't anticipate a threat that 5.7mm will handle better my current 9mm/5.56mm weapons.

I bought an “as new” FN 5.7 a few years ago for $700. The price was too good to pass on and I wanted to see what the hype was all about. A short while later, Academy or Palmetto offered the FN .40 grain V-Max ammo for $15/box with free shipping, so I purchased two cases. I also picked up some Federal American Eagle ammo for about $13/box. These prices are on par with .22 WMR ammo, but they’re not the norm. I’ve put a few hundred rounds through the gun at the range, but haven’t shot any critters or chronographed it.

The gun is extremely light and comes with (3) 20-round magazines. It has very little recoil, the sights are good and accuracy is excellent. It appears the above video showing the muzzle blast was taken at dawn or dusk. I did notice some blast at our indoor range, but nothing as severe as in the video. It is loud. The safety is positioned in an odd place and takes some getting used to, but it’s fairly ergonomic. Reliability has been flawless.

IMO, the gun is over priced at retail, but they seem to sell out quickly. The good ammo is restricted to LE and military sales and is generally not available to the public. I have seen AP ammo offered for sale, but the asking price is over $100/box an it’s probably illegal in a number of jurisdictions.

FN cautions not to reload this cartridge and I won’t attempt it. I’ve seen a handful of photos of guns that blew up and all were attributed to reloaded ammo. The cartridge operates at fairly high pressure (50,000 psi) and it’s a blowback action. To delay extraction, FN cases are coated with some sort of polymer. I’ve read that an adhesive is used to help retain the bullet in the case. I value my hands and face too much to experiment with handloading this one. FN factory ammo seems substantially better than the Federal.

Overall, I consider this a range toy and a possible candidate for varmint shooting. The gun certainly gets a lot of attention at the range and others really seem to enjoy shooting up my ammo! I’d carry a 5.7 for self defense if that’s all I had, but I prefer to protect myself in public with proven cartridges (.38 Special/9mm and up).

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"I also cook."

Hopefully it will disorient his buddies also.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Paul Harrel just put up a new video comparing the FN 5.7 to the Ruger 57 and he does the meat target also then he shoots a meat target with Remington HTP 357 load. You be the judge.

Ruger or FN or any manufacturer touting their newest round and gun as perfect for self defense is like watching a Lincoln car commercial with Matthew McConaughey behind the wheel. He's perfect, the car is perfect, what more could you want in a motor vehicle?

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Come and take it!!

........Just another flash in the pan..........

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S&W Accumulator