NOT A DEBATE: just comments on type of bullet

[Lee Barner]

I do not want this to become an argument or a debate. i'm just reporting on a test I conducted today. a few years back one of our members(nkj Nut) gave me a batch of bullets me made. they are hard cast 145 gr SWC. I found them last week and loaded up 10 using data for 148 gr WCs minus a little. today I tested them from two revolvers: a 5" M&P and a 3" 64. I put four pieces of 3/4" pine backed by 1/2" of plywood. this was screwed to a 1" thick backstop. five rounds from each gun: almost all penetrated all layers and into the backstop. my point is that lead SWCs, especially hard cast can be great defensive rounds. I am not encouraging anyone to use hand loaded ammo for self defense, just stating facts concerning their performance. lee

[ContinentalOp]

FWIW, 148gr midrange wadcutters will typically penetrate 14-15" in ballistics gel when fired from a snub, depending on their velocities (some are faster than others). That puts it within the FBI's 12-18" guideline. I think they make a good, low recoil alternative to some of the hotter HPs for defensive use. Unfortunately, the one brand I've tried so far keyholed when fired from my 642.

My biggest concern with non-HP bullets is the risk of overpenetration, and the midrange wadcutters don't seem to have that problem while maintaining adequate penetration.

The only issue I can see with your test is the test media, wood instead of gel, since gel is well-established for testing defensive rounds. I don't think it would correlate to gel. While I try to avoid relying solely on gel results (I prefer actual street results), they do offer a way to compare rounds that perform well in actual shootings with untested rounds. I would be curious to see what your rounds would do in gel as that would give me a better idea of how they would compare with other established defensive rounds.

[Lee Barner]

I don't have access to gel or I would use it. all I have is scrap wood from my shop. I remember the old gun rag tests of how many boards a load would penetrate. lee

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

I don't have access to gel or I would use it. all I have is scrap wood from my shop. I remember the old gun rag tests of how many boards a load would penetrate. lee

Yes! Penetration was considered to be a valid comparison method for many, many years.

When expanding bullets entered the handgun market in a big way (about 50 years ago now) I did a lot of experimenting with various cast and jacketed bullets, soft point and hollow point, fired from pistols and revolvers in 9X19, .38 Special, .357 magnum, .45ACP, and others. Old phone books, wet newspapers, a Realtor buddy saved his weekly MLS catalogs for me, pine boards, gallon milk jugs filled with water, drywall compound (5-gallon buckets), you name it. Just about anything can provide a means for comparative analysis.

The point that so many "experts" seem to miss is that any method or medium provides nothing more than comparative analysis. Today's standard seems to be "ballistic gelatin", although that is a confusing term in itself because every batch of gelatin varies from every other batch, so the only remaining value worth considering is found in comparing the performance of various combinations (firearm, bullet, velocity, distance, etc) in the same batch on the same day under the same ambient conditions. There really isn't any "magic jello" to be found.

Way back in time (pre-WW2 through 1960's or so) the US military conducted many tests of small arms and ammunition using domestic animals (goats, sheep, pigs, perhaps others), probably providing some useful information on actual performance on mammals of similar size, weight, body mass, skeletal structure, etc, as humans.

Fast forward to today, with dozens of U-Tube videos showing ammunition performance on slabs of beef or pork ribs, buckets of guts, whatever, with or without multiple layers of various clothing.

I have cast bullets of pure lead, salvaged range lead, wheel weights, bars of plumbing solder, linotype alloy, and even played around with zinc die-casting metals at one time (very hard, very lightweight compared to lead, capable of extreme handgun velocities). At one time or another I have evaluated penetration and/or expansion in just about any media I could concoct for comparison.

Lots of comparative analysis. Zero definitive conclusions. I think it is likely that only one bullet ends a gun fight, and that is the bullet that makes it impossible for one participant to continue the fight.

[Echo40]

Police used cast semiwadcutters to great effect for decades until they were replaced by softpoints and hollowpoints, and certainly not because they weren't effective.

To this very day, hardcast semiwadcutters are widely acknowledged as the best bullets to use for Bear Defense.

[fredj338]

Just wondering, what did you expect? Personnaly, a 150gr lswc hardcast at 700-800fps is certainly making a hole but there are much better choices for making bigger holes.

[Lee Barner]

fred, I don't know what I expected. I just had these bullets for a long time and had never loaded any of them. personally, I rarely carry a .38 spec any more. I really prefer .44 spec and .45 acp. just fooling around and now I know if I get attacked by a stack of lumber when carrying a .38 spec I know how deep my bullets will go. LOL. lee

[Univibe]

Lead SWC does as well as any of the $1.50 a shot miracle loads. Makes a .36 hole. Where you put it is what counts.

[oldiegoldie]

out of curiosity, do lead bullets foul the barrel worse than copper plated? is it harder to clean the barrel after firing lead bullets? have never used them. don't even use them in my .22 rifles.

[Lee Barner]

I think it depends on the hardness of the lead. these didn't leave any lead fouling. I have shot may softer lead bullets over the decades that did leave some lead fouling that required a good solvent and a good scrubbing. lee

[Ivan the Butcher]

Any testing on anything only give a comparison of the different bullets tested. Coroner's reports show that the same ammo performs differently in different people!

There is no guarantee that any bullet will preform a certain way on any target. These tests just take it from "MUMBO JUMBO" into something you can discuss with a common factor of: How Far? How Deep? How heavy? What final diameter? & How dead?

This is the brain child of committees for over 100 years! Are they a bad idea? Not as long as you don't take them for anything but what they really are: A fun afternoon of shooting!

Ivan

[tops]

I used a doe deer for a meat and bone test. 5 grs. Unique, Oregon Laser Cast 158 gr. SWC, S&W Cent., 716 FPS. The bullet went through the near shoulder blade but missed the off side blade and was against the hide. The second shot shattered the bone in the near ham but missed the off side bone and liked about 1/2 in. getting too the hide. Larry

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

Just fooling around and now I know if I get attacked by a stack of lumber when carrying a .38 spec I know how deep my bullets will go. LOL. lee

I was attacked by a stack of lumber back in '78 while taking a shortcut through ol' man Corriher's sawmill. That lumber'd got out of the fence and was comin' straight for me! Took three shots to kill it, but I survived. I was using a 240-grain Keith style SWC in .45 Colt over 8 grains of Unique at the time. Tell you what, them was some tough ol' boards.
Still had to go to the hospital though and get a bunch a shots cause the lumber hadn't been vaccinated for termites.

[THE PILGRIM]

I’m also a big fan of Semi-Wadcutter Solid Bullets.
Got it from reading the Gospel of Elmer, I guess.

[lrrifleman]

Lee, I think that your lumber-penetration test has produced two valuable points of information.

First, it suggests that the round you tested could successfully penetrate either the pelvic girdle or or the rib cage and clavicle, both being crippling injuries! Second, if the round were used against a soft tissue target, it can give an idea of potential over-penetration. Gel tests give a good indication of soft tissue damage, but as Paul Harvey would say, and now for the rest of the story!

[oldiegoldie]

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

I think it depends on the hardness of the lead. these didn't leave any lead fouling. I have shot may softer lead bullets over the decades that did leave some lead fouling that required a good solvent and a good scrubbing. lee

thanks....makes sense.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Univibe

Lead SWC does as well as any of the $1.50 a shot miracle loads. Makes a .36 hole. Where you put it is what counts.

Sort of. It makes close to 36 cal hole but then an expanding bullet can almost double thst. So to say just as well, not really. It is a reliable 36cal hole, but yhen so is a hp that doesnt expand??

[Ziggy2525]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

...
Today's standard seems to be "ballistic gelatin", although that is a confusing term in itself because every batch of gelatin varies from every other batch, so the only remaining value worth considering is found in comparing the performance of various combinations (firearm, bullet, velocity, distance, etc) in the same batch on the same day under the same ambient conditions. There really isn't any "magic jello" to be found.
...

Probably true with the clear gel we see now in the YouTube videos.

OTOH, I think the swine derived ordnance gel developed by Fackler ETAL and used in the FBI tests is pretty consistent from batch to batch. The process to make and use it is tightly specified along with calibration tests to ensure the quality/density of the gel block. From an interview I saw with Fackler, it was designed to mimic the performance of the hog hind quarters they were originally using for ballistics testing.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

I think it depends on the hardness of the lead. these didn't leave any lead fouling. I have shot may softer lead bullets over the decades that did leave some lead fouling that required a good solvent and a good scrubbing. lee

Lead fouling is generally not an alloy issue but size/fit issue & lube. Check your cyl throat sizes, often the culprit. Shoot a bullet at least 0.001" over bore dia. You can run pretty soft alloy to 1200-1250fps with little to no leading.

[kraynky]

I haven't yet tested these for hardness, and don't recall Matts Bullets saying what hardness they were rated at. But keeping them down around 800 fps it shouldn't matter. Full wadcutters make nice neat holes, 45 Colt 250 gr Full Wadcutters make big neat holes. I would not want to be on the receiving end of these chunks of lead rumbling towards me.

They actually cycle through my Henry Carbine like they were a round nose. My 25-5 doesn't mind them either.

Well, I see my picture didn't make it thru the first time, trying again.

[GerSan69]

Thanks, Lee! Appreciate you sharing the info. Every bit of info helps when one of us laymen is evaluating ammo for our own use.

[chief38]

Hard Cast Lead SWC's are great for penetration - but pay the price in the expansion department. IMHO they make great Bear loads as they would insure better penetration than many bullet configurations.

My favorite load for hiking in Bear Country is the Buffalo Bore 180 grain Hard Cast SWC (Outdoorsman load) that moves out of my M65 3" bbl at a little over 1300 fps. While I will admit a 3" .357 is not the ultimate for defense against a bear, - the 3" M65 is something I can always have with me whereas I'd not want to always be toting a 6" 44 Mag - especially in the warmer months!

[DWARREN123]

They penetrated but will they do a energy dump on a live target or go right thru?

[fredj338]

Oh no, energy dump???

[YkcorCal]

Back when I had my S&W 41 mag 4" I shot full lead semi-wadcutters at 950 FPS in it and found them very controllable and they hit like small freight trains in my humble opinion.