Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-21-2020, 03:45 PM
hyena hyena is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 192
Likes: 105
Liked 238 Times in 116 Posts
Default some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight

My preferred concealed carry is my 642, with Altamont smooth rosewood boot grips and a titanium cylinder to replace the original stainless steel. Empty, the gun weighs 12 ounces even.

My shooting buddy is seriously thinking about getting a Sig P365. I've thought about it too, so yesterday we rented one at an indoor range. I put over 100 rounds through it, shooting mostly at 7 yards, but also some at 10 and 25 yards. Some random thoughts.

1. I shoot it noticeably better than my 642. I'm not bad with a snubby, but even with years of practice I shot the Sig better.
2. It shoots more like a compact gun than a subcompact. In other words, in shoots bigger than it is, if that makes sense. Not as good as my Shield .45 though.
3. The rental gun had the magazine with the little pinky extension. If I were to buy one, I believe it comes with two mags, and I'd make them both flush. The pinky extension does nothing for my XL hands.
4. I very rarely pocket carry my 642, but the P365 fits in my jeans pocket much better than the 642. The extra weight didn't seem that much, although I think I'd have to tote it around for a while to make that judgement.
5. It also shoots soft. I expected a 17 ounce 9mm to be a bit snappy, but it's not.

So why do I think I'll stick with my 642? I don't know. I just feel good with it. Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up and decide to go buy the Sig.

I also wanted to try some lighter bullet weights in my 642. My reloads are a coated 158gr RNFP bullet with 4.5 grains of Unique. They consistently shoot very high at only 7 yards. I mean about 4-5 inches high, which frustrates me. (I've never actually measured it to know exactly.) So yesterday I shot 10 of my buddy's reloads, coated 125 grain bullets and 4.5 grains Unique. He also brought some Federal HST 130 grain +Ps for me to try. I hoped lighter bullets would hit lower, and to my surprise both loads hit pretty much to POA at 7 yards. So I have some Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P's coming, to replace the 158 grain Buffalo Bore rounds I currently carry.

It's funny. My 158 grain reloads shoot POA at 7 yards in my 640 Pro and 686. But way high in my 642. I have a strong grip, but maybe not strong enough.

That's it. Just wanted to share some thoughts and observations.

Last edited by hyena; 02-21-2020 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 02-21-2020, 04:34 PM
Geronimo Jim's Avatar
Geronimo Jim Geronimo Jim is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,372
Likes: 2,233
Liked 1,949 Times in 587 Posts
Default

Good info. Been think of the Sig 365 myself. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-21-2020, 06:06 PM
Harrychristopher Harrychristopher is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Liked 102 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
I also wanted to try some lighter bullet weights in my 642. My reloads are a coated 158gr RNFP bullet with 4.5 grains of Unique. They consistently shoot very high at only 7 yards. I mean about 4-5 inches high, which frustrates me. (I've never actually measured it to know exactly.) So yesterday I shot 10 of my buddy's reloads, coated 125 grain bullets and 4.5 grains Unique. He also brought some Federal HST 130 grain +Ps for me to try. I hoped lighter bullets would hit lower, and to my surprise both loads hit pretty much to POA at 7 yards. So I have some Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P's coming, to replace the 158 grain Buffalo Bore rounds I currently carry.
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight-sw-642-target-image-jpg

If the opportunity presents itself you may wish to try shooting a box of Sig Sauer .38 Special 125 grain FMJ as a range ammo and a box of Sig .38 Special + P 125 grain JHP as a carry ammo. I have found that this brand of ammo shoots cleanly and accurately in my PC 642 EA and hits at POA at 7 yards. I have been able to save $3.00 per box by buying it by the case. The Sig .380 and 9 mm calibers in this brand shoot just as well as this caliber does in my Sig pistols.

The target was shot at 7 yards free hand standing. The target itself is 6 1/2 inches wide by 7 7/10 inches long printed on a standard 8.5 by 11.5 piece of paper. This was shot after I put Hogue 60000 Monogrips on the gun and was the second time that I had fired a snubby in the last 25 years. The combination of the new grips and this ammo provides me with a decent starting point to improve my shooting accuracy. I believe that I had fired approximately 80 rounds on this particular target.

Harry
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:47 AM
Gene L's Avatar
Gene L Gene L is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 647
Likes: 126
Liked 1,159 Times in 360 Posts
Default

Got a 365 and a 442. I'm terrible with the revolver, not pleasant to shoot. So it sits in my safe, and the 365 gets carried. 12 rounds to 5 is less of a factor, but follow-ups are, and I can shoot it far better with follow-ups a lot more accurately than the 442
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:56 AM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 8,675
Likes: 444
Liked 10,886 Times in 4,370 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyena View Post
I also wanted to try some lighter bullet weights in my 642. My reloads are a coated 158gr RNFP bullet with 4.5 grains of Unique. They consistently shoot very high at only 7 yards. I mean about 4-5 inches high, which frustrates me. (I've never actually measured it to know exactly.) So yesterday I shot 10 of my buddy's reloads, coated 125 grain bullets and 4.5 grains Unique. He also brought some Federal HST 130 grain +Ps for me to try. I hoped lighter bullets would hit lower, and to my surprise both loads hit pretty much to POA at 7 yards. So I have some Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P's coming, to replace the 158 grain Buffalo Bore rounds I currently carry.

It's funny. My 158 grain reloads shoot POA at 7 yards in my 640 Pro and 686. But way high in my 642. I have a strong grip, but maybe not strong enough.

That's it. Just wanted to share some thoughts and observations.
It's plain physics. That 12 ounce J-frame is going to have more muzzle flip with the slower heavier bullet. This means the muzzle will climb more during the milliseconds it takes for the bullet to exit the barrel. Both because the greater mass of the bullet creates a greater equal-but-opposite reaction force (pushing the barrel backwards and upwards) AND because the slower bullet takes slightly longer to travel the length of the barrel - giving it more time for muzzle flip to push it even farther off target.

At that distance about the only thing that matters in terms of POI is exactly where the muzzle is actually pointed at the exact moment in time that the bullet exits the barrel. Tiny fractions of an inch of movement make a huge difference in POI.

With the combination of a really light revolver, heavier bullet, and longer time between ignition and the bullet exiting the barrel, the recoil is pushing the muzzle up farther before the bullet clears the barrel than when a lighter faster bullet is shot from the same gun OR when you shoot the slower heavier bullet from different gun with more weight.
__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Last edited by BC38; 02-22-2020 at 01:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:22 AM
Breakaway500 Breakaway500 is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 6,916
Liked 2,922 Times in 830 Posts
Default

I pocket carry my 642 and use the Liberty Civil defense 50 grain bullet cartridges going 1600fps.They are devastating on targets and shoot point of aim at 7 yds. Less recoil and noise than anything else I have tried. I was skeptical about them until I actually used them in the field. I've even converted a few friends who have tried them,including the local Chief of police who uses them in his back-up.

Last edited by Breakaway500; 02-22-2020 at 05:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:51 AM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,698
Likes: 6,820
Liked 6,044 Times in 2,123 Posts
Default

Another thing to consider with pocket carry is shape, not just size and/or weight. Depending on how your pocket openings are cut, a revolver, particularly a shrouded or concealed hammer snub, may actually be easier to draw. Grip a revolver in your hand and compare that to gripping a semi-auto. With the semi-auto, you have the frame tang and rear of slide sticking back further than the same area on a revolver, and that may interfere with a smooth draw out of the pocket.

Weight distribution may also be a factor. A revolver's mass is focused in its cylinder while a semi-auto's is focused in its grip. The difference may not be much when comparing a snub revolver to a subcompact, single-stack .380 like the LCP, but when you move up to a semi-double-stack 9mm like the 365 it could be more of a factor and may contribute to the snub being more comfortable than the other in the pocket.

As to why you still prefer your 642 over the 365, maybe these factors are influencing you without you consciously knowing it, or maybe it's just out of familiarity, that on some deeper level you just trust the 642 more.

Just my thoughts on the topic.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:00 AM
Ziggy2525's Avatar
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is online now
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 915
Likes: 342
Liked 1,556 Times in 536 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Another thing to consider with pocket carry is shape, not just size and/or weight. Depending on how your pocket openings are cut, a revolver, particularly a shrouded or concealed hammer snub, may actually be easier to draw. Grip a revolver in your hand and compare that to gripping a semi-auto. With the semi-auto, you have the frame tang and rear of slide sticking back further than the same area on a revolver, and that may interfere with a smooth draw out of the pocket.

Weight distribution may also be a factor. A revolver's mass is focused in its cylinder while a semi-auto's is focused in its grip. The difference may not be much when comparing a snub revolver to a subcompact, single-stack .380 like the LCP, but when you move up to a semi-double-stack 9mm like the 365 it could be more of a factor and may contribute to the snub being more comfortable than the other in the pocket.

As to why you still prefer your 642 over the 365, maybe these factors are influencing you without you consciously knowing it, or maybe it's just out of familiarity, that on some deeper level you just trust the 642 more.

Just my thoughts on the topic.
I agree about shape. When I practice, I’ve never had an issue drawing a centennial j-frame or an lcp from my pocket. In a hurry, the back of the square slide on a glock 42 and 43 would always get hung up inside my pocket.
__________________
Vegan by proxy.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:28 PM
Sistema1927's Avatar
Sistema1927 Sistema1927 is offline
US Veteran
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: "Land of Disenchantment"
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 1,121
Liked 2,903 Times in 903 Posts
Default

Most days I arry a P365 riding in an Alabama Pocket Holster, strong side. It replaced a Kahr PM9, which replaced a 642.
__________________
Only a cold warrior
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:41 PM
hyena hyena is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 192
Likes: 105
Liked 238 Times in 116 Posts
Default

Interesting comments, and thank you to everybody for taking the time to reply.

BC38 - It's been 45 years since I took a couple college physics courses, so thank you for the succinct explanation. I figured the POI would lower with a lighter bullet, for the reasons you gave, but was surprised at how much difference it made. 4 or 5 inches at only 7 yards is a lot!

Jay Fraime - Installing the titanium cylinder was an experiment. I've owned that 642 for a long time, and never had any issue with the weight. A couple years ago, I bought a 640 Pro. It's not that it's too heavy to carry (IWB or OWB), but I was surprised at how much different it felt on my gun belt compared to the 642. Which got me to thinking...if going from 14 ounces to 21 ounces was that much different, how about going lighter still and getting a 340PD at 11.2 ounces? Then I thought...I can get very close to that without spending nearly the $$$ by putting a titanium cylinder on my trusty 642. (Don't think I'm tough enough to shoot .357 out of the 340 anyway.) So I did it. No regrets, but probably wouldn't do it again. But I can tell the difference in weight. My buddy has a 642, and we can tell the difference handling them back to back. His has the IL, and also has a crimson trace laser, so it's not a straight up comparison.

Thanks again everybody for the comments and suggestions.

EDIT to add one more thing, in case a reader is considering getting the titanium cylinder. When I said we could tell the difference handling them, I meant just holding them side by side. I cannot tell any difference (in recoil) shooting it.

Last edited by hyena; 02-22-2020 at 03:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:13 AM
Guevera Guevera is offline
Member
some musings about my 642, a P365, and bullet weight  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Likes: 8
Liked 1,157 Times in 300 Posts
Default

First, let me say that the P365 is quite a piece of engineering and my hat is off to whoever it was who came up with that design. I am not a SIG guy, but have to give credit (grudgingly) where it is due.

A good pocket holster is a wonderful thing, but I never understood the padded nylon version, the famous "sticky" holster and that sort of thing. Never wanted to look like I was shoplifting a club sandwich. Instead, I favor the leather ones by Pocket Concealment Systems - here's one for the Seecamp and I'm thinking about something similar for the P365.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bullet weight Magload Reloading 12 03-29-2015 07:12 AM
Help with bullet weight Carrot Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 8 01-27-2014 10:16 PM
Published bullet weight vs. actual bullet weight safearm Reloading 29 03-26-2013 05:45 AM
M&P 9mm bullet weight? bolewine Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 19 04-08-2012 02:21 PM
Bullet weight vs Pistol weight oldracer Reloading 13 01-21-2010 03:13 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:01 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2020
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)