Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:30 PM
Motorsporting Motorsporting is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 571
Likes: 167
Liked 234 Times in 152 Posts
Default Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy

Here is an updated study by Ammoland on the efficacy of pistol rounds to stop bear attacks. This is not intended to ignite a "bear thread," but merely to provide information.

Update: Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attack: 93 cases, 97% Effective

U.S.A. –-(Ammoland.com)- In January, 2018, I published some original research on the efficacy of handguns in stopping bear attacks. It started with this observation:

On the Internet, and in print, many people claim that pistols lack efficacy in defending against bear attacks. Here is an example that occurred on freerepublic.com:

“Actually, there are legions of people who have been badly mauled after using a handgun on a bear. Even some of the vaunted magnums.”

OK, give us a few examples. As you claim “legions”, it should not be too hard.

I never received a response. I believe the claim was made in good faith. There has been much conjecture about the lack of efficacy of pistols for defense against bears. A little searching will find a plethora of fantasy, fiction, mythology, and electrons sprayed about the supposed lack.

In the original article, there were 37 instances of bear attacks where people attempted to defend themselves or others from a bear or bears, with a handgun. Of the 37 attacks, there was only one failure, giving a success rate of 97%.

The criteria for inclusion in this study is a pistol had to be fired to defend against a bear or bears. If a handgun was not fired, the incident was not included. If the use of the handgun stopped the attack, it was a success whether the bear was killed immediately, or left the scene, as long as it stopped attacking.

All methods of defense against bears have similar problems of access. A failure to use a handgun or bear spray in a pack, or a rifle slung over the shoulder without a round in the chamber, should not be counted as a failure of the method to defend against bears. All of the methods can be carried for easy access. It is not a fault of the method if the user did not have the item available for use, or if the attack was too quick to allow use.

I and colleagues have searched for instances where handguns were used to defend against bears. By the time of the original article, I and my associates found 37 instances that were fairly easily confirmed.

By March of 2019, our renewed efforts had found another 26 instances. The 63 incidents had 3 failures, for a 95% success rate. The incidents are heavily weighted toward the present. The ability to publish and search for these incidents has increased over the years.

By August of 2019, we have found ten more cases, making 73 cases, with three failures, for a success rate of 96%.

As of March 2020, we have found 20 more handgun cases, for a total of 93 cases, with three failures, for a success rate of 97%.

In addition to the handgun defenses, there are four more instances where handguns were used in combination with long guns, bringing the total to eight; one where a pistol was used on an aggressive bear hit by a vehicle, two examples where pistols were present but not used, one indeterminate case, and two examples of unconfirmed incidents. All of these additional incidents are referenced but are not included in the 93 cases or the 97% success rate.

You need not rely on my judgment or that of my colleagues. Read of the successes and failures for yourself. Make your own judgments. Some links may not work. Sources on the Internet often go dead after a few years.

Bear and human populations are increasing. Reliable and powerful handguns have become popular and legal to carry in more bear country. Handguns are more commonly carried for self-defense.

The handgun calibers, when known, range from .22 rimfire to .460 Smith & Wesson Magnum. The most common are .44 magnums with 28 cases, all successful. There were 2 combinations of .44 magnum and .357 magnum cases. Six of the combination handgun and long gun cases involved .44 magnum revolvers.

For this update, we found another .22 rimfire case, two additional 9mm cases, another .38 special case, three additional .357 magnum cases, another 10mm case, five additional .44 magnum cases (included in the 28 total .44 magnum number), another .45 ACP case, another .454 Casull case, four more cases where the caliber was unknown, and one more case where both .357 and .44 magnum revolvers were used. All 93 cases are referenced below, as well as the combination cases and examples of incidents that were not included, in the interest of transparency and completeness.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:45 PM
IAhunter's Avatar
IAhunter IAhunter is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cochise County, Arizona
Posts: 390
Likes: 230
Liked 311 Times in 136 Posts
Default

Yep, I saw that on Ammoland. Interesting research results. At 97% it appears to me that those who profess that bear spray is more effective than a handgun are blowing tree-hugger smoke as that's what they would like us to believe.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:41 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 10,184
Likes: 13,015
Liked 17,117 Times in 5,139 Posts
Default

What’s burn my butt is when a bear has to be put down because it’s chased a dog back to its owners.

The bear was merely defending himself or cubs. The dog should have been on a leash.

I get it. I love dogs. I grew up in Alaska. When our dog went with, he was on a leash.

And I can tell that a 44 mag with 250 LHC bullets will do the job if you aim carefully. Nothing less than a 44 was carried. No bear spray either.

10 gauge slugs work very well.
__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:59 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,444
Likes: 4,172
Liked 2,327 Times in 1,194 Posts
Default

Martin Fackler says your results from "in the woods" shootings are anecdotal and meaningless, and the only valid means of evaluating firearm efficacy against bears is to shoot bear-sized blocks of ballistic gelatin.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:24 PM
Execpro Execpro is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ohio
Posts: 651
Likes: 5,068
Liked 657 Times in 340 Posts
Default

Motorsporting, what a great read! A good way to spend the afternoon!
When I was younger and out and about in bear country ( wooded ares) I carried either a 41 or 44 mag Ruger Blackhawk Revolver. In open country a 300 Win mag 180 gr. No 22's for me.

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!

Last edited by Execpro; 03-28-2020 at 09:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:53 PM
geeollie geeollie is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: on the great plains
Posts: 245
Likes: 85
Liked 237 Times in 94 Posts
Default

Bear Attacks: their causes and avoidances, by Stephen Herrero is a good book to read and is based on his work in USA and Canadian rockies.

He is a firm advocate of a .338 Winchester magnum rifle.
To sum up his book: don't go where there are big bears and no long guns.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2020, 02:51 PM
mikerjf mikerjf is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,869
Likes: 2,250
Liked 2,946 Times in 1,097 Posts
Default

Great read... Bella Twin aside, hard to imagine the 22 incidents.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:42 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 3,544
Liked 12,643 Times in 3,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
Great read... Bella Twin aside, hard to imagine the 22 incidents.
My impression after reading the .22 rimfire results was that the old saw about the .22 LR and bear defense is true:

.22 LR is very effective if you use it to shoot your companion in the knee and then escape while the bear is busy finishing him off.

Secondarily I wondered how many of the ".22 Rimfire" cases involved .22 magnum.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 03-29-2020, 04:00 PM
Okie21 Okie21 is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: central Pa
Posts: 478
Likes: 896
Liked 657 Times in 245 Posts
Default

Good reading.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-29-2020, 05:13 PM
Echo40's Avatar
Echo40 Echo40 is online now
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,837
Likes: 7,662
Liked 7,361 Times in 2,507 Posts
Default

Personally, if I planned on hiking into bear country, then I'd just pack my Mossberg 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs and be done with it.

Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy-mossberg_590_shockwave_fde-jpg

It weighs just slightly more than a S&W Model 500, is much easier to control, and packs more of a punch.

Folks can argue until the end of time regarding the effectiveness of Magnum Handguns against bears, but nobody is going to argue over the effectiveness of a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug, nobody with sense anyway.

Not that I doubt the effectiveness of Magnum Handguns against bears or anything. In fact, I trust the word of established hunters like Elmer Keith who used sub-magnum handgun cartridges for hunting such as .45 Long Colt, as well as the obvious fact that folks have successfully dropped charging bears with sub-magnum handguns long before the .357 Magnum was a twinkle in Elmer 's eye.
I merely think that if you're going into bear country then you ought to pack the most powerful firearm that you can handle in the most compact, easily deployed package available, and for me, that's the Mossberg 590 Shockwave.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mossberg_590_Shockwave_FDE.jpg (132.9 KB, 10793 views)
__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Last edited by Echo40; 03-29-2020 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 03-29-2020, 09:45 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,444
Likes: 4,172
Liked 2,327 Times in 1,194 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
Personally, if I planned on hiking into bear country, then I'd just pack my Mossberg 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs and be done with it. .
Not your Model 29, or AMT AutoMag?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:03 PM
Echo40's Avatar
Echo40 Echo40 is online now
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,837
Likes: 7,662
Liked 7,361 Times in 2,507 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
Not your Model 29, or AMT AutoMag?
Well my Model 29 fell off a pier and I can't get ammo for thr Automag anymore, you know?
__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:47 AM
hkcavalier's Avatar
hkcavalier hkcavalier is offline
US Veteran
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 3,302
Likes: 1,766
Liked 7,273 Times in 1,896 Posts
Default

Not an Alaska guy, but I've heard all those fancy "guide guns" and such aren't the top choice. A 12g semi loaded with slugs is the cheapest and simplest way to deliver the most deep-penetrating lead in the shortest amount of time at close range. Until bears start making rifles, we're probably okay...
__________________
Psalm 27:2
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 03-30-2020, 06:52 AM
sheppard sheppard is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: PA
Posts: 235
Likes: 22
Liked 290 Times in 139 Posts
Default

If you carry a high-cap. 9x19 pistol loaded with ball ammo you have an effective bear gun based on the recently posted studies.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-30-2020, 08:21 AM
jim lock jim lock is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 259
Likes: 76
Liked 236 Times in 103 Posts
Default

At some point I would think "shot placement" would be discussed. I mean really!!
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-30-2020, 10:58 AM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 13,688
Likes: 12,836
Liked 39,353 Times in 10,021 Posts
Default

If I knew I was going to run into bears I would carry a M32 revolver and a couple of speed loaders full of the high velocity ammo.


Last edited by steelslaver; 03-30-2020 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 03-30-2020, 07:44 PM
Echo40's Avatar
Echo40 Echo40 is online now
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,837
Likes: 7,662
Liked 7,361 Times in 2,507 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim lock View Post
At some point I would think "shot placement" would be discussed. I mean really!!
Jim
Shot-Placement, Snot-Placement, I say! All you need are biggah boolits with moar powah, that's how you down a bear!
__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-01-2020, 12:21 PM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
Banned
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 6,989
Liked 9,332 Times in 2,759 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
If I knew I was going to run into bears I would carry a M32 revolver and a couple of speed loaders full of the high velocity ammo.

YouTube
There is a minimum fuse distance for 40mm grenades (thankfully) but if the bear is too close the blunt impact of the 40mm round will probably not penetrate deep enough to reach vitals. 40x46mm is quite low velocity and it’s large surface area do not make it a good penetrator. Not only that, but it would be reckless to fire a 40mm grenade launcher in close proximity to others.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-01-2020, 02:41 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: the free state of Arizona
Posts: 1,016
Likes: 2,402
Liked 1,795 Times in 625 Posts
Default

After living in Grizzly country, I can tell you that there are bears and there are BEARS.

With the grizzlies I've encountered, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a cannon.


Prescut
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #20  
Old 04-01-2020, 03:05 PM
Okie21 Okie21 is offline
Member
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: central Pa
Posts: 478
Likes: 896
Liked 657 Times in 245 Posts
Default

Since all my pistols are 9mm, it would be good to know more details than just caliber. What weight, round nose or flat, standard pressure or +p?

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Updated study on mass shootings worldwide. Grayfox The Lounge 6 11-30-2018 11:01 PM
*Updated 3/18/2016* How NOT to self-defend with a pistol vigil617 Concealed Carry & Self Defense 59 03-22-2016 07:21 AM
Updated/Prices LoweredWTS:Parts & Gear-S&W Revolvers,M52 & M39 pistol,S&W odds-n-ends m4scout Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 13 11-30-2011 03:50 PM
Power Pistol VS 2400 in 327 Fed Magnum++UPDATED++ Rule3 Reloading 16 10-07-2011 08:55 AM
A new study? DJINCO The Lounge 1 04-27-2009 06:26 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)