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Old 04-09-2020, 03:32 PM
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Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It?  
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So if you mag dump on one guy & go dry in the open, you are very likely going to get smoked by his partners.
I didn't read RRat that way. My take was "If 3 guys take 8 shots to neutralize all of the threat, I'd like to do that faster than them and not miss." But I have been known to "misinterpret wildly." Ask my wife. Joe
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Old 04-09-2020, 03:37 PM
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I didn't read RRat that way. My take was "If 3 guys take 8 shots to neutralize all of the threat, I'd like to do that faster than them and not miss." But I have been known to "misinterpret wildly." Ask my wife. Joe
I was actually referring to old cops post. Many old revo guys will do the shoot to the ground thing, but if you have limited ammo & maybe haven't seen other attackers, could be a fatal mistake if that is how you practice.
If I had multiple attackers, the plan is everyone gets a few & I am moving way off the X before I even think about a reload, hopefully at cover or far enough away that it favors my skill level.
You & rrat are correct. Only good hits count & good hits faster counts more. Why drills like the Bill drill are very good at assessing ones ability, but it isn't a good training drill. Shooting on the move is always a good drill. This is especially true in contact distance drills.
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  #53  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:34 PM
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Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It? Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It?  
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I didn't read RRat that way. My take was "If 3 guys take 8 shots to neutralize all of the threat, I'd like to do that faster than them and not miss." But I have been known to "misinterpret wildly." Ask my wife. Joe
The way I read it was that he practices emptying his gun as fast as he can while trying to stay on a plate.

How we practice is how we'll act in the real world. If you practice 6 shots as fast as you can, then that's what you'll do in the real world. If you do that in the real world, there are serious complications that could arise.

If the bad guy is stopped with the first shot, every subsequent shot is attempted murder.

If you empty your gun into the first guy, what do you use on the second guy?

A better solution is a controlled pair, move off line and then assess.
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Old 04-09-2020, 10:04 PM
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I go to the range every 4-6 weeks to keep up my skill with my Smith 380EZ. 66 rounds each trip.
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:31 PM
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Could you do the light in one hand and gun in other? How about the cross wrist hold?
I am no tactical handgun shooting expert but I think that is called the "Harries method". I have however practiced Wing Chun for a while. Any serious Wing Chun practitioner would hope that his or her opponent uses the "Harries method".
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Old 04-10-2020, 12:53 AM
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If you let your assailant get close enough to use said Wing Chun, or any other empty hand, your gun technique has failed you.
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Old 04-10-2020, 03:05 AM
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If the bad guy is stopped with the first shot, every subsequent shot is attempted murder.
Perhaps you could cite the relevant statutes and some actual cases to support this?

We'll wait
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Old 04-10-2020, 07:43 AM
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Default As best as possible
Depending on the range I’m shooting at best I can do is ask permission to do some rapid fire with my defense gun/ammo from port arms. From 21-50 ft
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Old 04-10-2020, 08:39 AM
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Nope...... never have...!!

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Old 04-10-2020, 09:16 AM
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Default The ugly truth
If you really need your CCW to fend off an attack. In 90%(no real figures to back this up) of the cases you are doing it wrong.

If you act it right. The "fast need in action" gun scenario should not even happen.

But. Make sure if it happens. You are still able to end the threat with a minimum of shots(meaning. Hit what you want to hit. And make sure that what you want to hit has a good chance to end the threat with 2 shots).

The so called "center of mass aim, shoot as fast as you can" is a great way to waste bullets with very little pratical result.
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Old 04-10-2020, 09:30 AM
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If you really need your CCW to fend off an attack. In 90%(no real figures to back this up) of the cases you are doing it wrong.

If you act it right. The "fast need in action" gun scenario should not even happen.

But. Make sure if it happens. You are still able to end the threat with a minimum of shots(meaning. Hit what you want to hit. And make sure that what you want to hit has a good chance to end the threat with 2 shots).

The so called "center of mass aim, shoot as fast as you can" is a great way to waste bullets with very little pratical result.
This is how I think about it too. From the John Correa/ASP stuff, for a non-LEO civilian self defender, first hit to the head (obviously) or COM convinces pretty much all BG’s they have somewhere better to be right now. From his videos, the only exception’s seem to be jilted husbands and the assassination hits.
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Old 04-10-2020, 09:58 AM
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A double tap while screaming DIE YOU M*********ER is frowned upon at the range when the hunter education group is next to you shooting their .22's so No I don't.
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Old 04-10-2020, 10:12 AM
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A double tap while screaming DIE YOU M*********ER is frowned upon at the range when the hunter education group is next to you shooting their .22's so No I don't.
I always hate it when there's a women's group at the range and they're all screaming DIE YOU ********* while they're doing mag dumps on the "no shoot" male photo targets...
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Old 04-10-2020, 10:34 AM
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I always hate it when there's a women's group at the range and they're all screaming DIE YOU ********* while they're doing mag dumps on the "no shoot" male photo targets...
But you don't call them on it do ya?
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  #65  
Old 04-10-2020, 01:00 PM
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Perhaps you could cite the relevant statutes and some actual cases to support this?

We'll wait
Since you're incapable of doing it, I'll help you get started. Look up "use of excessive force" in a search. You'll find many cases. Every state has them. Once the threat is over, you no longer have the right to self-defense because there is nothing to defend yourself from.

It's the same as shooting someone as they run away.
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Old 04-10-2020, 02:57 PM
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Is this really your self-defense plan?
It’s not a “plan” but a way to practice given the limitations at public ranges. If you don’t like it ignore it.
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Old 04-10-2020, 03:00 PM
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Really? Emptying the gun as fast as possible seems like a good idea to you?
Once you’ve survived the realities of a gunfight w/only a revolver maybe I’ll take you more seriously.
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Old 04-10-2020, 03:06 PM
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Hopefully you add movement to this. Staying on the X just makes you a bullet sponge.
I can’t add movement @ a public range but I do qualify for my LEOSA certification annually and that involves plenty of moving around.
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Old 04-10-2020, 05:15 PM
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Since you're incapable of doing it, I'll help you get started. Look up "use of excessive force" in a search. You'll find many cases. Every state has them. Once the threat is over, you no longer have the right to self-defense because there is nothing to defend yourself from.

It's the same as shooting someone as they run away.
I didn't make any claims, you did that.

I'd like you to provide examples of cases in which the defendant was charged with a separate count of attempted murder for each round fired.

I'd also like specific example of a self defense shooting that was good on the first shot but became attempted murder on the second shot without a specific deliberate criminal act such as intentionally shooting someone who is no longer a threat.
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Old 04-11-2020, 01:46 AM
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Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. What I mean to say was, yes, I practice the way I intend to use my gun. I'm glad so many others do the same.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:10 AM
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Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. What I mean to say was, yes, I practice the way I intend to use my gun. I'm glad so many others do the same.
That's what I thought you meant to say.
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Old 04-11-2020, 07:19 PM
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Do You Actually Practice with Your Handgun Like You Plan to Use It?

No... I find the combination of laxatives and firearms hurts my accuracy...
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Old 04-11-2020, 10:12 PM
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None of the ranges near me allow realistic self defense practice. In this area I think you either need to be a cop or have access to a very exclusive private area in order to get that kind of practice. Where I shoot, maybe you could practice with a light attached, but you would not be allowed to mimic other self defense situations.
I have a distinct advantage over most of you in that I own my pistol range and I practice drawing from a holster movement rapid-fire and various other things that would get me thrown off most other ranges.

You might want to check Grant Cunningham out as he's in your neck of the woods. I just took his Threat-Centered Revolver course last November in Phoenix and it was a very good course. If you facebook, he's on there.
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Old 04-11-2020, 10:27 PM
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To answer your title question, yes. I see guys all the time at the range practicing their technique with cargo pants, tac vest, gloves, etc. When I ask them if they are training for a competition, its always “no just making sure my ccw piece is good to go” or something like that.
Great idea as always to train. But what do you wear every day? You wear a business suit? Shoot at the range in your business suit. You gave a baby? Shoot one handed with a sandbag in your other arm. Practice your draw, reloading, etc wearing what you wear, doing the things you do in your life. If you pocket carry a j-frame and never practice the draw from your business casual pants, from the pocket, and fire, why are you training?
I am not saying to do this 100% of the time, but it should be a percentage greater than zero.
My wife shoots one handed holding a bag of flour in her offside hand, turned away from the target shielding the “baby” regularly.
I shoot in my everyday clothes, with my actual carry piece, carried like I actually carry it, at least 25% of my range time. In winter its with gloves, coat, etc.
I typically dont like rails on pistols, so no lights on them, but there is a dedicated portion of my training around employing a flashlight, and what to do with that light when you have to reload fast, or hold the gun on a bad guy while using the phone to take a photo of the bad guy and then call 911, etc. Where does the light go for that moment? What about the phone? The pistol? Etc
It is a significant part of my training and my students’ training as well.
I walk with a cane so I practice strong hand and often drop the cane to get to my revolver. Dropping the cane may also serve to distract my opponent, as I draw.

I also move while shooting. It's not hard to do.
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Old 04-11-2020, 10:43 PM
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I didn't make any claims, you did that.

I'd like you to provide examples of cases in which the defendant was charged with a separate count of attempted murder for each round fired.

I'd also like specific example of a self defense shooting that was good on the first shot but became attempted murder on the second shot without a specific deliberate criminal act such as intentionally shooting someone who is no longer a threat.
Jerome Ersland. Oklahoma. Look it up.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:18 PM
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Jerome Ersland. Oklahoma. Look it up.


Did you read the last line of my post?



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I'd also like specific example of a self defense shooting that was good on the first shot but became attempted murder on the second shot without a specific deliberate criminal act such as intentionally shooting someone who is no longer a threat.

I'd say shooting someone and then walking up and standing over him and deliberately shooting him would qualify as a deliberate criminal act, wouldn't you?
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:27 AM
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Did you read the last line of my post?






I'd say shooting someone and then walking up and standing over him and deliberately shooting him would qualify as a deliberate criminal act, wouldn't you?
Yes; I did. That is exactly what Ersland did only he killed the guy.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:53 AM
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I always hate it when there's a women's group at the range and they're all screaming DIE YOU ********* while they're doing mag dumps on the "no shoot" male photo targets...
R.O.: "Sorry ma'am, that's a no-shoot target, but nice groups."
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