My question is prompted by various discussions about having lights attached to you handgun via a rail vs. carrying a light in your non-dominant hand. Set aside for the moment which you prefer, instead I am asking about how you practice at the range.

If you have a light attached to your handgun, is that light actually on your gun when you do your various drills? If not, does it make a difference in the guns balance or your handing of the gun? Any difference in racking the slide or changing magazines?

If you are person who prefers to carry a light in your non-dominant hand by holding the light away from your gun hand or using the cross wrist approach, do you actually do this when you are doing drills? How do you change magazines if the light is in your other hand? How do you rack the slide?

Just wondering.

None of the ranges near me allow realistic self defense practice. In this area I think you either need to be a cop or have access to a very exclusive private area in order to get that kind of practice. Where I shoot, maybe you could practice with a light attached, but you would not be allowed to mimic other self defense situations.

Could you do the light in one hand and gun in other? How about the cross wrist hold?

I was thinking of starting a thread on gun mounted lights. I think the greatest advantage of a gun mounted light is that once activated, you can rob a potential adversary or intruder of his night vision.

The main problem with gun lights, whether on or off the gun is that it may prompt you to make some tactically incorrect decisions that might get you shot. Doing a sweep of your house for an intruder is exceedingly dangerous and few of us have received the necessary training to do it. Rather than try to imitate something you saw on TV, it is best to call the police and let them flush out an intruder. That's what they are paid and trained for. Once we have all the toys, we feel compelled to use them.

People can practice shooting and improve. It dont mean much if they don’t have the fuzz to drop the hammer on a perp. What are they going to do if somebody shoots at them? The average Joe should stay where he can protect his family and stay there. A light on a weapon is bad move at the least.

I was home alone on a windy/rainy night a few years ago and at about 3:00am I could hear my shed door slamming in the wind. I remember feeling certain that I secured it earlier in the day and was a bit nervous checking it out in my dark backyard, so I went prepared. I had my M&P .45 in my right hand and a flashlight in my left. I quickly learned that this was not an ideal set-up. Opening my slider and screen door was very awkward with either hand. After making my way to the shed and seeing that all was well (I must not have fastened the door), I went back to my house with a first hand lesson learned. My M&P .45 now wears a flashlight mounted to it's rail and my left hand is free to open/close doors or defend myself if need be.

For home practice, I use a laser to improve my pointing accuracy. I use an unloaded gun with my finger off the trigger and quickly point towards an object. I then touch the laser to see where it would have hit. It actually works very well at indoor distances and I am now able to point at a light switch size target and have the laser confirm a hit fairly consistently. My point shooting with live ammo at the range has greatly improved.

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Free advice is worth the price

I'm not a fan of a weapon mounted light (WML) on a handgun. There are lots of reasons, but it's enough for this thread to say I don't like them.

I always practice like I'm going to use anything. When I go to the range, I always practice with my pistol as I would use it on the street. I use a timer, I move, I reload, present from concealment...whatever I think I need work on that day.

Fortune favors the prepared.

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Freedom isn't free.

Yes I try and do low light work when I can. Draw from concealment, use timers etc. I, obviously, cannot train as much as the professionals but I feel its enough to have a fighting chance against your typical joe blow criminal.

As for the flashlight discussion, I actually still use a C-Cell maglite. Its an off hand weapon that happens to be a flash light. Best law enforcement flashlights made.

Not a fan of light mounted gun. Always though it would be a perfect target for the perp.
Jim

Yes , I draw and train with both hand , like I would on the street . also have my own range area 50 and 100 yard . , to me a full size model draws a lot faster than my compact stuff I can get a better grip and go .

I don't use a WML. I have thought about it, but it's just not that big a priority for me right now. I can see both sides of the argument. For now, I use a handheld light.

I have practiced at the range, but not in low light as there was no option for that, and I haven't had a chance to take a low-light training course. I've been at ranges with lots of restrictions that make it difficult, at best, to practice realistically. I used to have access to a range with programmable turning targets and allowed me to draw from the holster, but no more. Before it closed, the range I recently used didn't allow for drawing from holsters/concealment or firing faster than 1 shot/sec, unless you were able to get approval.

So I rely on dry fire practice at home. I do practice with my handheld light. While I do practice one-handed gun manipulations, reloads, and malfunction clearing, if I have a handheld light on me I also have pockets, so the light would go in there. I've also seen lights with straps mounted on them so you can let go of the light, reload or whatever, and then grab the light again.

While I agree that it's better to hunker down in a safe room with a gun and call 911, there may be times when one has to investigate a sound. Are you going to lock yourself away and call 911 every time you hear a noise? If it's obvious someone is breaking into your home, then that would be appropriate. But it's not always obvious. Not to mention if you have children or other family members and need to gather them in your safe room. For those circumstances, I can see the advantage of using a handgun with a WML to keep one hand free. For safe room defense, a WML on either a handgun or long gun can be beneficial for target verification.

Ultimately, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It depends on what your training and/or comfort level is, as well as what your personal/home situation is. Assess your situation, and adjust your strategy/tactics/techniques as needed.

Just my opinion.

Edit: If I did use a WML, I would definitely want to practice with it mounted to see how it would affect its balance, as well as running my reliability test protocol. I had a Gen3 Glock 23 around the time they were reported to have reliability issues with lights mounted (since corrected, I believe), so that always stuck with me.

I agree 100% in an urban setting against 2 legged problems. That's what we got paid for and trained for. I train whole families sometimes. It is very hard to find a range that will allow you to do that. Much less, let Joe Homeowner run around with activated lights and lasers on his 50 caliber plastic roscoe practicing how not to get shot while he's carrying a lit Christmas tree for a target.

On the other hand, I grew up on a farm. An old Eveready D cell taped with electric tape under the double barrel was hard on chicken coop raiders. You could do the same thing to light up the door of your bedroom, long enough to make sure you didn't put a load of No. 4 in your son coming in to tell you he was home for a surprise visit. But PLEASE don't try using it for room clearing.

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

Yes, I always practice with a WML mounted. Yesterday I actually shot three pistols at the range, all of which had dedicated WMLs.

Minor impact on handling, often provides a little more weight to improve return under recoil.
Notice how many uniformed cops working evening or night shifts have permanent WMLs? In my area it is nearly 100%. People who face threats daily figure the juice is worth the squeeze.

No impact.

One addendum - I almost always carry a small LED flashlight along with a WML on my pistol. Some situations the handheld flashlight would be better than a WML.

Those little flashlights all have added O-Rings to allow for finger retention. Minor impacts to clear stoppages, reload magazines or do most anything. Example picture, except I have fifty cents in mine... Thrym Switchback Tactical Flashlight Ring -The Firearm Blog

WMLs have been reality for 35 years. This stuff isn’t rocket science -it just takes a willingness to learn, commitment to practice and the discipline to implement.

Some will think of me as ill prepared but I have no light on my gun and don't practice my quick draw techniques at the range even though I could at the club I belong to.

I think the chance that I'll ever have to use my gun in a self defense event is extremely low. I prefer spending my time putting lots of rounds through while concentrating on shot placement. I like to think that if I ever did really need to defend myself all that familiarity with exactly how my gun handles would be useful.

No bells or whistles, just factory sights:
"Fight, Front Sight"
regular practice at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards.

I say both if you have the option....................

I have a M&P with it's rail and a Wilson Combat Beretta Centurion with a rail....... I have WMLs for both ...... I also have a FenixLD02 single AAA in my pocket..... and a Maglite XL50 handy.


The Maglite is primary but if needed I have to option to drop it and still have a light available; to confirm any "target" before firing. Ya; a risk to me but I won't just fire on a "shadow". I can activate/flash the Streamlight with my weak hand thumb

or I can pocket the flashlight and use the WML if it's a 4 legged varmint in the yard.


But I don't use the WML as a"flashlight"

I do not agree with having a light on a firearm. If you feel you need a light carry it in the hand you are not shooting with. We practiced that for years before lights were put on firearms. It is a much safer alternative. I carry a one CR123 cell Streamlight flashlight in my gunny sack for this purpose. I may buy a 2 cell Streamlight which is 600+ lumen.

Try this laser cartridge for at home training. I love using mine.

I have seen the "light on the gun" thing but got to thinking about it ....
If I'm a bad guy... where would be the best place to shoot at...
I would naturally shoot at the light...kind of like the go towards the light thing... I don't think I'm going to put a light on my gun...just doesn't seem like the smart thing for me to do.

Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

To answer your title question, yes. I see guys all the time at the range practicing their technique with cargo pants, tac vest, gloves, etc. When I ask them if they are training for a competition, its always “no just making sure my ccw piece is good to go” or something like that.
Great idea as always to train. But what do you wear every day? You wear a business suit? Shoot at the range in your business suit. You gave a baby? Shoot one handed with a sandbag in your other arm. Practice your draw, reloading, etc wearing what you wear, doing the things you do in your life. If you pocket carry a j-frame and never practice the draw from your business casual pants, from the pocket, and fire, why are you training?
I am not saying to do this 100% of the time, but it should be a percentage greater than zero.
My wife shoots one handed holding a bag of flour in her offside hand, turned away from the target shielding the “baby” regularly.
I shoot in my everyday clothes, with my actual carry piece, carried like I actually carry it, at least 25% of my range time. In winter its with gloves, coat, etc.
I typically dont like rails on pistols, so no lights on them, but there is a dedicated portion of my training around employing a flashlight, and what to do with that light when you have to reload fast, or hold the gun on a bad guy while using the phone to take a photo of the bad guy and then call 911, etc. Where does the light go for that moment? What about the phone? The pistol? Etc
It is a significant part of my training and my students’ training as well.

Fortunately, there's a range nearby that has/did have a monthly two-stage match where one stage has a low light setting and the other is total darkness.

I've used both a weapons mounted light and a handheld flashlight in the matches. When I've used my M&P's with a Surefire WML I don't really notice any difference in balance. I imagine with a little extra weight up front it tames that massive 9mm recoil better. Handling-wise it's a little slower re-holstering with the light on the luggage rack. No difference racking the slide, or changing magazines. I do turn the light off when reloading because you're usually situated very close to a barricade and I just don't need 60-500 lumens lighting up that white plywood two feet away.

When shooting my Glock pistols I carry the flashlight in my non-dominant hand and use the crossed wrist method. When it comes time to reload I turn the light off, put it under the armpit of the arm on the side I'm holding the pistol with. (I shoot both left and right-handed.) I rack the slide using the same method.

Bill

No..............

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S&W Accumulator

You should try one of the available laser-trainers. It sits in the chamber and creates a momentary dot when the striker hits it. I have one in each caliber and use it often. There is a secondary plus in that with this device in the chamber you cannot have a negligent discharge. There are no rims on these either so they won't accidentally be extract it while training.

Same. The only difference between range wear and everyday wear for me is eyes and ears, and a ball cap at the range (keeps hot brass from getting caught between my face and shooting glasses).

For dry fire/self defense practice at home I actually have a set of older, more heavily worn clothes that duplicates my everyday wear so I can practice with what I'm wearing, but don't have to worry about wearing a hole or tearing it. Most of the time I don't use it, but if I'm planning on being more physical than usual I'll go to the trouble of putting it on to save wear-and-tear on my clothes. Practicing self defense techniques while wearing a gi is quite a bit different than wearing a shirt, jeans, and shoes. It can be an eye-opening experience.

OP zogger52, no lights on my self-defense handguns but, I do have Crimson Trace lasers on them. One thing is for sure bad guys don't stand still like a paper target does at 7 yards. You're not going to take the perfect Weaver stance at 0300 hrs. when a meth head just kicked in your front door looking for cash. I don't practice in my boxer shorts ether but, maybe I should.

FWIW, every once in a while I do dry fire practice at night, in low light, starting from my bed using my nightstand gun (triple checked unloaded for safety, of course) and flashlight. If nothing else, I can see what effect my flashlight would have on low-light-adjusted eyes when reflected off the walls (I ended up switching from a 360-lumen light to a 200-lumen warm-LED light) and work out potential lines of fire to minimize the risk to my neighbors. I also have a night light installed that provides pretty good ambient light in my hall and living room.

A blue gun, if you have one, could also be used for additional safety.

It may seem like a lot of work, but we're talking literally 10-15 minutes every few months, and most of that time is letting my eyes adjust to the darkness.

On a related note, it's a good idea to create security layers around your home, if possible, to give you as much as advanced warning as possible should an intruder try to make entry.

Just some suggestions.

As someone has already said the only difference between my range wear and my daily wear is the PPE. When I wore external armor I clipped the lanyard to my vest with a carabiner. Otherwise I use the lanyard attached to the light. When I use my light at work I make a specific point of carrying it with the lanyard on my wrist. I have reloaded and cleared malfunctions with my light hanging from my wrist

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Retired Career Security Guard

Always. Even when the "use" is "only" competition. I don't compete to loose.

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Expect the unexpected

I also use one of the laser devices as described above. Highly recommended both for simple sight picture and trigger control practice, as well as practicing the entire draw stroke to shot. A side benefit is that it's really improved my accuracy when shooting actual ammunition.

As far as realistic practice, I'm fortunate that one of the ranges in the area has reserved time on their range to actually practice drawing, and scenario based practice with instructors present. (You have to have gone through their defensive handgun classes to be eligible though.)
When at these practice classes, I always practice my draw with a IWB holster and a concealment garment on, just like I'm out and about. Getting the shirt up and out of the way for a clean draw consistently is sometimes harder than it looks. Most in the class practice using a OWB holster and no cover garment, some with an actual "battle belt" with a duty holster. Cool stuff, but if they aren't LEO's, it doesn't seem to apply for a regular Joe or Jane.
Shooting is a perishable skill and needs constant practice. Looking forward to these sessions starting up again after the Zombie Apocalypse is over.

I agree with both of those comments. Admittedly, holding a light in one hand and a gun in the other makes for tricky door opening but you can always extinguish the light, pocket it if necessary, open the door in the dark, and then retrieve it if it's pocketed, pop that puppy on, maybe blinding the opposition in the process.

I was taught to not only keep my light separate from my gun but to hold it high and away. If it becomes a target my hand takes the hit, not my head.

More importantly, if you have to see into a room, you can keep the weapon at the ready while the light moves around and, little known fact, since in homes most ceilings are white, if you point the light at the ceiling you will illuminate the room, including some corners. Try it some time. meanwhile, your weapon is pointed where you want it pointed.

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Come and take it!!

First, I am not a fan of having a flashlight attached to a sidearm.

Second, my range does not allow for practice by drawing the handgun from a holster, so I have to practice by starting from a low-ready position. This is due to liability concerns and I expect there will be more restrictions with ever growing regulation and liability insurance issues.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

As much as possible. Should the body waste ever get real, I might not be able to hit that solid two-handed stance with the front sight lined up. My range doesn't allow holster draw or rapid fire. I practice from low ready, two hand, off hand and weak hand. With Miami-Dade in mind, I replace my prescription glasses with standard safety glasses and move the target to different intervals. Not hardly Gunsite Academy, but better than nothing.

For all those stuck with a restrictive range, you can practice your presentation at home without ammo.

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Freedom isn't free.

Yes i do shoot my handguns a lot. I stop by the range as often as i can and i always take a few handguns to keep them warm and sharp.

I have & do practice with weapon mounted & hand held lights, a couple of idpa night matches annually. You really need both. For the most part, regardless of hand held technique, you are shooting strong hand only imo. Cross hand or Harris tech offers little support from the support hand, same for Rogers & some techniques are very flashlight dependent.
Best thing to do is go run your day drills At night & try diff techniques & equip. Weapon light is easer to shoot with but all have to learn light management during reloads & movement. Reloads & malfs are done as sort of normal. you are just juggling a light. The smaller the light the easier that is.
I am also a night sight fan for ambient light & no flashlight. If I can see & ID a target, with good night sights I can hit to 20y or so under very low ambient light.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

That's not the question.

If you're firing a handgun desperately to save your life in a short-range firefight, you'll be peeking out from behind a gas pump, crawling underneath a car while firing, shooting suppression over your shoulder as you run zig-zag, engaging four targets at once (while all four are shooting at you), shooting with your left hand, or anything else you can imagine.


Is that what you're practicing?

To the question “Do you actually practice with your handgun like you plan to use it?”

No. If I need to use my handgun in real life, I will be using it to shoot real rounds at one or more real live people that are trying to kill me. They may or may not be shooting real bullets back at me. The range where I shoot at frowns on practicing like that.

What I do at the range is practice different individual drills that work specific skills I can only practice at the range. Marksmanship. Draw to first shot. Multi-shot strings. Live fire malfunction clearances. I try to shoot an IDPA match once or twice a month. I like the camaraderie and I get live fire moving and shooting. At home I use dry fire for typical dry fire stuff plus a blue gun for some scenarios - get up from bed in the dark, no glasses, grab gun. Yada, yada. I also do some airsoft training to get a feel for the dynamic working against real people. BUT .. all those approaches have rules, so they’re just practice. Not like I’m expecting it will be if SHTF.

I’m also a “no” on using a WML as a civilian self defender. One skill, flashlight, is easier and simpler to practice than two - flashlight and WML.

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Vegan by proxy.

Yep, I practice keeping it in its holster where I want it to stay!

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Sag Harbor & Manhattan, N.Y.

Realistic practice @ public ranges can be tough. I use this w/my EDC (340PD or LCP): Use a standard paper plate @ three, five & seven yards. Empty the gun as fast as possible, combat reload (speedloader/speedstrip or magazine) and repeat. The objective is to keep all rounds on the plate. I shoot the gun exactly the way it’s carried, no oversized grips for the revolver.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Is this really your self-defense plan?

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Freedom isn't free.

Putting all of the rounds on target in the shortest time possible seems like a good strategy to me!

Best,
Rick

My nightstand pistol (M&P9) has one. I found a good sale last summer on Crimson Trace lights.

Mounted it, and it stays put. I find that the little bit of extra weight at the muzzle helps stabilize my shooting with this gun, and it’s made me more accurate with quicker strings of fire. It’s not my carry piece, so I’m not concerned with drawing from a holster - and there’s no impact on racking the slide or changing mags.

If it helps me ID my target in the dark right before I squeeze the trigger, I figure so much the better. I’m not going to be pointing it at things I’m not about to open fire on anyway ... after all, it’s a gun light, not a simple flashlight.

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Most places around here don't even allow draw from holster. I practice draw at home, right and left handed shooting at combat ranges, reloading with both hands and SA/DA 2 shot "transitions" since the 6906 is that type of sidearm. At almost 67 I try to be "wallpaper." That is I ain't getting involved in other folks business, try to avoid trouble and trouble areas as much as possible and have only one condition for weapon use: Life or death of me or mine. So I guess the answer is no, I don't train like I will need to use "it." Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Really? Emptying the gun as fast as possible seems like a good idea to you?

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Freedom isn't free.

Well it isn't Iraq, you wont be laying down suppression fire over your shoulder in most locations??
Why I am a big fan of good IDPA competitions for practice. You will shoot from all manner of positions, while moving, at moving targets, two hand, strong hand & weak hand, all under the small stress of the timer & a dozen sets of eyes.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I am hoping that you do more than that.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Hopefully you add movement to this. Staying on the X just makes you a bullet sponge.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The issue with the mag dump on a single target practice is you will very likely do just that in a real fight, one or 2-3 attackers. So if you mag dump on one guy & go dry in the open, you are very likely going to get smoked by his partners. Also if you do not always carry a spare reload, mag dumping & standing there with an empty gun could be a problem.
The way you practice will certainly impact you under stress of a real fight. you will likely revert to what you do on the range. I see this a lot in competitors, imagine maybe times 10 in a real fight? I am so used to reloading from my belt that reloading from a table or drawer has to be gone over in my head before the buzzer goes off or I invariably go for my mag pouch.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Seems like the last time I was at an IDPA club match (it has been awhile)..... the courses had so many targets and "stuff"..... felt like Iraq........

Instructions:
"When the IED goes off engage the 34 targets closest to furthest .....shooting from inside the vehicle ......... with 6 mandatory reloads.... one handed while putting a tourniquet on your left leg............."