I bought a Mossberg 590 in 1994 and have been very pleased with it. I used it in 3 gun matches in the 90’s and cracked the receiver which Mossberg cheerfully replaced. No other issues since. And it’s a serious weapon with 00 Buck.

Most of these first time panic buying gun owners are just looking for SOMETHING to make them feel safe, and shotguns are cheap(under $200), available, currently free from anti-gun bias (“you don’t need an AR. Get a shotgun” Joe Biden approves), and have the Hollywood allure of the ultimate in bad-***. According to the “experts”, you don’t need to aim at all because the spread will get them, and just shucking the action will send bad guys running. They will spend the rest of their lives under a bed or in a closet, never even fired.

Personally, I think they’re the worst choice for a new buyer. Recoil is fierce, loud as all hell(both traits make them scary to those unfamiliar) and can easily malfunction if they are short-stroked.

Resurgence? Hardly. People are buying them to have something, is all. When this is all over most will get sold back for pennies on the dollar. Those that don’t won’t see the light of day. All the ranges are closed during this pandemic so nobody is even familiarizing themselves with them. When they open again the crisis will have passed so there won’t be any need. I was buying some .22 at Walmart a few weeks ago. Guy behind the counter said all shotguns sold out. Customer after customer telling him this was their first gun purchase. When all the shotguns were gone people were buying whatever gun fit the ammo they had left. Nothing like a 7MM Remington Mag as your home defense gun!

Not surprised at all as many folks that can’t afford/find an AR or AK have turned to the classic pump gun. I’ve had a trusty 870 Police Mag as my bump-in-the-night gun since 2000.

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Some Might Say.

Well the down side to this is I like to find LEO trade-in shotguns in the riot configuration but since the panic they have disappeared from the offering. Hopefully and prayerfully this will be over soon and things will get make to normal. Most of the sites that typically carry these trade ins are Sold Out. ;(

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Patriots Forever!!

You know, I've never understood how anyone who isn't trying to machinegun their Shotgun by attempting to work the slide as fast as they possibly can without any concern whatsoever about maintaining accuracy could ever short-stroke the slide, thus resulting in a malfunction.

Honestly, I knew before I ever even owned a firearm that in order to feed a round in a Pump Action Shotgun, that the slide had to be brought fully to the rear then back fully to the fore, sheerly by observation, and since I have come to own a Pump Action Shotgun I have short-stroked the slide a grand total of zero times.
No, I didn't undergo months of training at Gunsight Academy before learning how to properly work the slide either. Heck, I didn't even bother to read the manual because it was obvious what to do. Push up the little doohicky behind the trigger gaurd, then pull back the slide fully to the rear, and then push it all the way back forward. It ain't rocket surgery!

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Try observing some mandatory police shotgun qualifications with time pressure and running and yelling, lots of co-workers observing and judging your performance and with your employment status depending on the outcome. You'll see some short strokes.

I'm not a policeman, I'm pretty sure that most of these COVID-19 panic-buyers aren't policemen either, (or at least I really hope they aren't) and with all due respect, anybody who becomes so rattled by a simple test that it causes them to induce malfunctions which could get them killed in the field probably aren't cut out to be on-duty cops and should probably be assigned to positions in which the risk of getting into a gunfight is practically zero.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

A shotgun may be the better choice for 1st time buyer HD gun. New shooter is not going to be worth much except at point blank range. The shotgun will improve hits and over penetration in neighborhoods isn’t a concern.

I took two 2 3/4,1 1/8,8 shells and opened crimp removed shot and replace with BBs and closed crimp by hand. They both fed from the mag. in my tekteecool gun. The back of the 2X6 shows one shot at 20ft and the other shot at 6ft. I am led to believe that either one of those pretty big marks would suffice. Larry

I agree that I want em stopped. Myself I rely on a shotgun for home def. with 00 buck. Having said that and looking at those ex rays, if that person did continue to fight I'm betting even a fat old man like me has a distinct advantage.

While that looks impressive, I don't believe that it relates to how that load would penetrate flesh. Wood doesn't have any give... where flesh does. Professionals do not use boards to test the penetration of a round to determine if it is a reliable stopper, they use carefully calibrated ballistics gel that simulates the properties of flesh and organs. These professionals have shown that #4 buck is the minimum load that will reliably penetrate deep enough to hit vitals and stop a threat.

I do like your "tekteecool" shotgun though. The bayonet really speaks to me!

I have short stroked a shotgun in just such a qualification. Cleared it and continued and passed the course. Some 15 years later still on the job. Guess I should thank my lucky stars that the dept. I work for don't expect our officers to be perfect.

Not necessarily. As previously pointed out by others, a new shooter can be put off by the sound and the recoil of the shotgun. When I instruct new shooters, I can get a new shooter to make hits with an AR or pistol caliber carbine equipped with a red dot faster than anything else. I typically start them with my .22 lr AR-15. Once they are comfortable, I move them up to 5.56mm. With more points of contact, it is easier to get a new shooter to make those hits with a long gun than the handgun. I never have them shooting at stationary targets with the shotgun though... range doesn't allow shotguns on the pistol or rifle range, so typically have the new shooter start with a target thrown from a mechanical thrower that simply goes straight out and away from the shooter. I will typically start them out with a semi auto 20 gauge as well.

However, the over penetration is going to depend on what load is used. Double ought buck is going to go through walls, as will #4 buck. Still have to be aware of your target and what is behind it.

After shooting both, I see a few more gravitate to choosing the shotgun. Hitting the moving targets builds confidence, and they just find it more fun than shooting paper at a bench.

I am not a doctor but this guy's ability to breath must have been seriously impacted (pun intended). I wonder how a surgeon would get all those pellets out.

Guys at the LGS have told me active dialog w the 1rst time buyer gang.
Expect a surplus of Glock 19's to hit the secondary market

If they are in a non threatening place, I read they leave them there.

YouTube

It's not nearly as bad as it looks. Most of those pellets are just barely skin deep. I'll bet none of them actually penetrated to the lungs. Notice that this x-ray is from the front and side.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm wondering if this x-ray shows wounds from a hunting accident.

There are so many unknowns here:
What was the range? (That's quite a spread!)
What type and how many garments were worn? Heavy hunting coat, etc?
What was the angle of impact? Above? Below? Side?
Did the pellets pass through brush / other foliage before human impact?
Light target load or heavy hunting load?

Others could probably add to the above list of unknowns.

The point is that too much is unknown to draw serious conclusions from these two x-rays. I am still willing to bet the guy didn't stick around for a second dose. He was probably writhing around on the ground screaming like a little girl -- I know I would be!

If it was a home defense situation and the wounded guy became enraged and charged the shooter, … well, that's why we don't use single shot firearms for HD.

The debate rages on. I know what I rely on and why. I don't try to proselytize the rest of the world.

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You're shy a few manners.

That really does not look like a real x ray to me. Looks more like an x ray of a shot pattern in ballistic gel superimposed on a torso x ray. ANyone who does not think that 7.5 shot is adequate-put on your heaviest coat and let me shoot you at across the room distance and see what happens. I guarantee that it will stop the fight. I've shot armadillo with 7.5 shot at room distance and it pretty much vaporized them.
Be that as it may, I feel quite adequately armed with 23/4 baby magnum #3 steel in my bedroom 870. It also does great on decoying ducks at 25-30 yards

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Forum consigliere

I'm sure it is a real X-ray. Look at this pic:


There are many many pictures on the internet of people who've been shot by game loads. I have no doubt that they hurt terribly. However, the point is not to hurt them, but to stop them definitively. None of the pictures I've seen where they were shot with game loads would have stopped the bad guy.

Will most run due to the noise and sting? Probably. I'm not counting on probably when my life is on the line. And I won't be shooting at anyone if my life isn't on the line.

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Freedom isn't free.

Howdy,
If you have the adapter, a Mossberg 12 ga Shockwave can use short 12ga shells. I think great for home defense.
Don't know if anyone is making shorty 20 ga shot shells.

Another gun I am seriously thinking of getting and accessorizing is a Kel Tec CP33. 33 or 50 rounds of 22 lr.
Add a brace, optional 50 rd magazine, red dot optic, Suppressor, flashlight and good to go.
But that's just me.

I don't know that I would trust that adapter for home defense. It is held in by friction only from my understanding. Adding another layer of complexity, and another thing to go wrong.

For the second option, are you advocating using a .22lr pistol for HD? I love my .22lr guns, but not for HD. If it is all you have, then sure, use it... but not my first choice.

I have 000buck in all 3 of my 20 gauge SxS. Comfortable with my ability to protect my wife and me. Of course I've been taking deer with them for 50+ years!

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Mike

Did you handload the 000 Buck 20 gauge shells? Or are they old commercial loads? I don’t think now there are any commercially loaded 20 gauge shells in 00, much less 000 buck? You may be talking about #3 Buck which is a common 20 gauge loading.

However, I SWEAR my grandfather used 00 Buck loads in his double 20 gauge, but everything I read says 00 buck won’t fit properly in a 20 gauge.

Aside from the fact that 00 buckshot is not available in a factory 20-gauge load due to shell-size limitations, your shot selection need not be affected by switching to the 20. We will delve more deeply into shot-size selection in a future column, but Mroz and I both believe No. 2 or No. 3 buckshot to be ideal choices for the 20 gauge. Federal also offers a 20-gauge No. 4 buckshot load that, when coupled with its FliteControl wad, shows promise for delivering a tight, energy-packed pattern.

Shooting Illustrated | The Mighty 20 Gauge

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Possum—The other white meat!

1- There is quite some validity in such thought. I've come to believe what's espoused by instructor-author Stephen P. Wenger. There's much evidence to suggest that offender and defender alike tend to focus on the threat (the gun in hand), and direct shots to that threat. The significant likelihood of gun-hand injury prompted his caveat to have one gun accessible to each hand.

2- I am so afflicted, and have worked long-arms and bows LH all of my life.
I've shot 870, 590, Win. 1200, and even an old Savage pump and none are a concern for the south-of-paw. The original M16 in Basic was the only thing I've ever shot were I needed a snap-on case-deflector. Hence, the receiver goiter designed into the A1 updates.

3- Absolutely correct.

I went through LEO training 30+ yrs ago. While I don't recall the specifics, the general idea was that you 'rode' the shot discharge in recoil. IOW, at any sort of 'distance', you put the bead BELOW center mass, as the muzzle will rise BEFORE the shot leaves the bore. Now, it all boils down to patterning your gun/load at several differing distances.

x 2, Sir.

1- Each little pellet is not "An Army of One", LOL. They remain so close together at 'typical' household distance, the center core of the pattern is virtually a solid mass.

2- Huh? I am not referencing the pic as I type this part, but clearly have it lodged in my mind from it being repeated in this thread. You can clearly see several pellets in the black part of the pic, which is indeed the surface dermis, and possibly a bit of the fat underneath. That part of the pic in shades of white is flesh, organs..and bone. IIRC, it would appear that most of the pellets got about 1/3 of the way into the chest, with around like a dozen in what would appear to be the heart itself. Again, you can bet this chap was on the receiving end some distance away..thankfully for him. This X-ray would not be the same if the shootee were hit at a household distance.

3- Yes you do. They're riding each other's six, and slamming into one another like dominoes, compounding their 'individual' effect. (see 1-)

4- Technically, true. However, do you really think immeasurable MICRO-seconds between touch-down of pellet # ONE, and the hundreds of his remaining comrades is going to be noticeable by the physiology of the receiver???

5-Thank you for the honesty of that observation.

6- No disagreement...but, how about control of the gun? Repeat-ability of the shooter? Any pellet/s that may MISS. That one .33 can penetrate farther, and more likely to be a fatal hit, far in excess of one, or two, or a dozen little-bitty ones.

However, that's probably why there are no 'birdshot' loads marketed toward LE. You are responsible for each projectile. (Well, the courts have all BUT obviated most of their responsibility). Whole lot easier to 'splain one or two, rather than a dozen, even IF they're just itty-bitty.

Are you saying that you believe that 1 1/8oz of 00 Buck is more difficult to handle than 1 1/8oz of #7.5 shot?

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Freedom isn't free.

Remington has a Home Defense BB load on the market.

Maybe a nice balance between the bucky boys and the birdy bros?

Howdy,
My thinking using either a Kel Tec PMR30 or CP33 22mag or 22lr with light And Suppressor is because of the amount of easily controlled rounds that can be fired.
More easy for women to handle than a shotgun.
Extra 30, 33 or 50 round magazines are easier to carry than shotgun reloads.
With any 22, good shot placement is necessary.

After all no one Wants to get shot by any gun.

7.5's are available in target loads which are less powerful therefore softer recoiling than game loads.

At $2.50 per shell.... no thanks, buckshot is proven and much cheaper!

I know #6 from a 16g will put down a very fat raccoon from a good 25-30 yards. Didn't kill him outright but I was able to walk up to him and administer the coup de gras with a .22. I'm certain #6 from a closer range would be devastating on two legged varmints.

Well, you're partially correct. The myth here is the same as the one that says a 20ga has lighter recoil than a 12ga.

Recoil is a simple function of action vs reaction. The force going forward is the same as the force going backward. A 1oz load traveling at 1,200fps is the same in every gun regardless of pellet size or gauge of the gun.

Therefore a statement like, "#7.5 shot will be easier to handle than 00 Buck" doesn't take everything into account. I have some 00 Buck sitting on my shelf right now that is 1 1/8oz at 1,200fps. It's actually lighter recoiling than some Trap loads I have that are 1 1/8oz at 1,290fps.

To carry the thought through, I'd rather take one shot with 00 Buck and not need a second, than two shots with a Trap load that still won't guarantee a stop.

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Freedom isn't free.

If the guns weigh the same. If the 20ga. is on a smaller frame it will be lighter and will kick harder.
I always recommend a 12 ga. for a beginner and use very light loads then when they grow bigger or more experienced and want more power you don't need to buy a bigger gauge. Just get shells with more powder and shot. Larry

Just added the light to it a few days ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once isn't a big deal, and as you said, you were able to clear it and complete the course, so obviously it wasn't a serious issue.

I'm arguing against the folks who act as if it's extremely easy to short stroke the slide on a Pump Shotgun and that doing so will apparently cause the gun to lock up in the process. By their logic, you should have short stroked the slide a dozen times, requiring tools to get it running again each time, and still been granted a pass because such is to be expected from a Pump Action Shotgun.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Yes, but no. Recoil is always the same. Kick or felt recoil is something else entirely. That's a discussion for another thread.

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Freedom isn't free.

the debate of pump vs. semi auto shotguns is a good one.
i use a double barrel 12 ga. 00 buck, 9 pellets in a 2 3/4"
shell.
5 rounds on the stock for reload, if necessary.

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ask questions- then shoot!

The issue is training. He same problems will happen with a semi & untrained shooters imo. Sure, hand a person a sg they do not train with & have them manipulate a safety under stress. Or gee forgot to put the safety on & go reaching for a loaded sg in the dark & tickle the trigger. Sure nothing to go wrong there.
A pump is pretty simple, just requires training like any firearm. If you really want simple, old school double with hammers is pretty dang simple. Every platform needs training though if you want to be safe & effective.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The magnum sits on the nightstand but if a bump occurs and I have time, I grab the tube. Cruiser ready. Rack a round and go to work.



Pump all the way. Not a fan of semi auto. I can work the butter smooth action like it is a part of me.



Anyone that doesn't train with:


Their carry pistol
Their home defense pistol


Deserves whatever mr. murphy throws at them. So that excuse doesn't fly in my book. If it isn't worth your life to train why should I care about what you do?

I saw a video on both these and one of them did a face plant on the guy with the barrel because it recoiled so hard. The other one had a strap on the forearm and helped control the recoil. I wouldn't put one of these in my daughters hands unless she weighed about 190 and had man hands.

I own 6 shotguns all 12 g. Three are semiauto, 2 are O/U Browning, and one pump- a Maverick 88 security model. The only inexpensive one is the Maverick.

For less than $200 you have a 5+1 12 gauge pump, 18 inch barrel, cylinder bore that can shoot almost anything (not
3-1/2) including slugs. In the house it stays loaded with #4 buck. Outside I might use 00 buck.

I have AR's, AK's, multiple rifles, a ton of handguns but if I have a household intruder I want my Maverick and I don't think it would take more than one shot to quell any intruder. Mossberg also sells a combo set with a security barrel and a longer barrel with a set of chokes for about $250 so if you like to shoot clays you can and switch the barrel and you have a security gun. Inexpensive and it works.

That strap is to keep your hand away from the muzzle so you don't blow it away. I am not a fan of these short non-shotguns.

I was in my FLGS yesterday to pickup my latest 1911 acquisition. A young couple came in looking for a 12ga pump for home defense. Sorry we don't have any was the answer. As I was leaving they were looking at a Benelli tactical autoloader. All I could think of was someones going to die and probably not the person intended... The long barreled SG was bigger than she was... I should have leaned in and said i have a nice NIB 870 at home...

I’d hate to think I had to hit anything with accuracy in the middle of the night half asleep.

So this sits by my bed, Remington Tac-14 20 gauge loaded with #4 Buck, very easy to maneuver, even easier to shoot. IMHO the 20 is easier to recover for a 2nd shot than the 12, and will certainly get the job done.

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Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672

The Mossberg 590 Shockwave comes chambered in .410 Bore and 20 Gauge as well as 12 Gauge. Also, there are these little rubber adapters sold by a company called Opsol which go for about $12 which allow the Shockwave to shoot 12 Gauge Mini Shells which have very little recoil.

Furthermore, as previously stated, the recoil of the Shockwave is extremely overrated and largely based on the ignorant assumption that the Shockwave has equal felt recoil to standard vertical pistol grip shotguns, which it absolutely does not because the grip angle on the Raptor grip isn't 90° like a vertical pistol grip, ergo it doesn't transfer recoil directly into the wrist.

It may look intimidating, but it's actually a lot of fun to shoot.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

The short, cylinder bore 12 gauge pump shotgun remains the quintessential home defense choice. What many are not aware of is just how far such a shotgun can deliver 100% patterns on a torso size target. The video below is one of the better examples I've run across on practical pattern testing the limits of modern 00B loads. It appears that both loads tested are full power 9 pellet 00B.

I think the Mossberg 20 Gauge with the short barrel and adjustable stock would be better. I've had mine for 20+ years w/o a problem.

Mossberg Youth 500(R)/505™/510 Mini™ | O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.

Geoff
Who is not fond of guns sold on looks.

This is one of the better videos I've seen of this.

It clearly shows the expected spread of shot as the range increases, and how much denser a pattern modern loads pattern vs just loose shot in a cup.

In the past in general shot patterns of #4 buck and larger expand at the rate of 1 inch per yard, so at 15 yards the pattern would be about 15 inches across. This limited the effective range of shotguns to about 15-17 yards for LE purposes. New loads cut that spread almost in half, allowing good patterns out to 25 yards.

HOWEVER at that distance your looking at a drop off in terminal performance because the pellets are spread out and each individual pellet is on it's own so to speak. If you expect to engage at longer ranges then you need to step up to either 000 buck or slug.

As for using birdshot at close range, anything further away then 15 feet is going to look like the photo Rastoff posted. The spread is going to greatly reduce the penetration and your NOT going to put down a determined attacker, especially if that attacker is wearing heavy clothing.

The defensive/home use of shotguns is one of those topics that tend to bring forth a large amount of misinformation. This thread is no exception.

Yet, at the same time, trying to correct everyone who thinks that racking a shotgun will scare off a burglar, or that #8 shot is dandy for inside the house, or that all you need to do is point it down the hallway cause you can't miss, etc. is a fool's errand due to the fact that these are often very deeply entrenched beliefs.

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Only a cold warrior

Agreed. We carried Rem. 870's in our patrol cars, with barrels cut to 16" so they would fit in the carrier between the seats. They were loaded with #4 buck, and a butt-cuff with another 5 rds.
We had to qualify with the shotgun bi-annually, and over the years I learned a few things about this particular weapon platform. Just my opinion; what works for me.

1. Yes, you have to aim a shotgun. It's not like TV.
2. Shot loads do not penetrate deep enough against a really motivated
assailant.
3. #4 buckshot is the smallest I will carry for serious use. See #2 above.
4. The sound of racking the slide means nothing.
5. Nothing says F-U like a shotgun.

I loved the 870, but never bought one of my own. I am so old-school that I still depend on my Browning Auto 5 that I got in 1966. It never fails. Still use #4 buck.

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