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  #151  
Old 04-18-2020, 09:58 PM
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The PD I worked for issued 3" 12g 000 BUCK and slugs. I had my 20" Mossberg 500 with rifle sights, rear aperture removed to form a ghost ring. It carried 8 + 1 plug what I had in a carrier. Qualification sure was fun.
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  #152  
Old 04-19-2020, 08:40 AM
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Good day to All,
That sure was a fun three pages to read. There are a number of experts who have preceeded my post so I'm going with the three things I learned first:

Shotguns can mount bayonets. Holy cow! That is cool.
Remington makes a BB load for self defense and it's expensive. Not so cool. BB's are a useful shot size that has become difficult to find. Bummer.
Numerous other manufacturers are coming out with viable pump shotguns. Cool!

Things that I'd like to reiterate:
Shockwave 12 gauge not easiest thing in the world to use, but not prohibitively impossible either. Think of it as a bridge between a handgun and a shotgun.

#1 buckshot is overlooked in favor of 00 Buck or #4 Buck a lot and it's a mistake IMO.

The greatest perceived recoil I encountered was in #4 Buck and High Velocity Slug loads during my patterning of my Shockwave.

Tactical buckshot is good for Shockwave. Opsol device good too if you can find the shells. Really easy to install and remove. Both easy on the hands.

Patterning your shotgun involves more than one box of shells. I spent almost $100 in buckshot alone with my Shockwave. The results were interesting and not what I expected.

As soon as you can afford it out a light and laser on your home defense weapon(s). They help and may save you or a loved one.
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  #153  
Old 04-26-2020, 09:00 AM
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I have seen the wad in shotgun wounds-that tells me that the buckshot AND wad are taking care of business!!
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  #154  
Old 05-01-2020, 07:13 PM
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As a Southerner, I grew up hunting deer with buckshot.

Early on I learned that maximum buckshot range was the distance I could get a minimum acceptable pattern with the particular gun/choke/load combination used. That might be 20 yards or it could be 60 yards.

Your pattern board will not lie to you!

Here is one of the better examples I've seen of establishing minimum pattern = maximumum range for deer hunting. In this case a reduced recoil 8 pellet 00B load was the choice for hunting with a 14" barreled firearm. Post mortem wound damage shown was extensive for the three deer taken on this Canadian hunt.

Indeed, the lessons for buckshot defensive use as well as hunting are valid.


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  #155  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:09 AM
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Indeed, the lessons for buckshot defensive use as well as hunting are valid.

YouTube
Great video - I really enjoyed viewing this as it was relevant for SD and as well as hunting, (a model example of hunting done right)

He mentioned the provinces , curious if the Shockwave will still be legal as our Canadian brothers & sisters are facing challenging times with firearms...
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  #156  
Old 05-11-2020, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
While that looks impressive, I don't believe that it relates to how that load would penetrate flesh. Wood doesn't have any give... where flesh does. Professionals do not use boards to test the penetration of a round to determine if it is a reliable stopper, they use carefully calibrated ballistics gel that simulates the properties of flesh and organs. These professionals have shown that #4 buck is the minimum load that will reliably penetrate deep enough to hit vitals and stop a threat.

I do like your "tekteecool" shotgun though. The bayonet really speaks to me!
Birdshot s gor birds. I have tested it #6 on a sdevof ribs at d1ft. None penetrated the ribcage. Then #4 buck, broke ribs & penetrated thru to the gel backing.
Most riot chokes spread about 1" per yard. So at 21ft, the 6-7" spread of birdshot isnt going to give penetration to vitals, especially if your attacker is wearing heavy clothing.
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  #157  
Old 05-13-2020, 03:20 PM
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I picked up a Mossberg 500 in 2006 after retiring. I had to turn in my Rem.870 so I needed a shotgun and the Mossy was priced right. Great shot gun like the tang safety, 5 round mag and the extra hunting tube makes it a great quail or turkey gun. It's my primary HD gun.Lies under my side of the bed at night, loaded with Federal Tactical buckshot.
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  #158  
Old 05-13-2020, 04:20 PM
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Used market glutted with $200 pump shotguns. House brands can be best value. Win, Savage and High Standard pumps good as most new on the market. Hacksaw or pipe cutter and you got HD gun. Always cut of 18.25”, the extra .25” is the Devils Share ( ATF ).
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  #159  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:11 PM
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Used market glutted with $200 pump shotguns. House brands can be best value. Win, Savage and High Standard pumps good as most new on the market. Hacksaw or pipe cutter and you got HD gun. Always cut of 18.25, the extra .25 is the Devils Share ( ATF ).
Measured from the bolt face to to muzzle with the action shut. We don't want any stretched tape measures. Always presume that the initial measurer will be I'll informed on how it is to be measured and try to do it from the front of the action.
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  #160  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:26 AM
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Used market glutted with $200 pump shotguns. House brands can be best value. Win, Savage and High Standard pumps good as most new on the market. Hacksaw or pipe cutter and you got HD gun. Always cut of 18.25, the extra .25 is the Devils Share ( ATF ).
I'm nervous and paranoid. I never cut below 18.5. Larry
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  #161  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Wiggums View Post
Great video - I really enjoyed viewing this as it was relevant for SD and as well as hunting, (a model example of hunting done right)

He mentioned the provinces , curious if the Shockwave will still be legal as our Canadian brothers & sisters are facing challenging times with firearms...


As I understand it, in Canada manually operated shotguns can have any length uncut OEM barrel, so long as the OAL is 26" or longer.

Last edited by RMcL; 05-25-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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  #162  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:09 AM
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Great video - I really enjoyed viewing this as it was relevant for SD and as well as hunting, (a model example of hunting done right)
Relevant also, is the sighting solution found with the installation of an XS Big Dot front bead sight on the Mossberg 12 gauge Shockwave.

The standard Mossberg model 500 and the Maverick 88, when fitted with an 18.5" cylinder bore security barrel, both suffer the same problem of shooting high with the furnished low brass bead sight. The XS Big Dot, with or without a tritium insert, quickly bring the pattern center in line with the POA.

The high visability XS Big Dot, when centered on the grooved receiver flat, mimics the quick "bead on a flat" sight picture of the late 19th century British Block Sight; used on many dangerous game guns of the era.

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  #163  
Old 05-20-2020, 01:01 PM
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Birdshot s gor birds. I have tested it #6 on a sdevof ribs at d1ft. None penetrated the ribcage. Then #4 buck, broke ribs & penetrated thru to the gel backing.
Most riot chokes spread about 1" per yard. So at 21ft, the 6-7" spread of birdshot isnt going to give penetration to vitals, especially if your attacker is wearing heavy clothing.
I don't know. I put down a very fat raccoon at about 20 yards with one shot of #6 from from a 16. It was about 3 AM so I walked over to it and finished it off with a .22 but the #6 sure stopped it. I can't imagine it not being a lot more effective at household distances. Yeah, it woke the tenant in my guest house. Said he only heard the .22 but I'm sure it was the 16 that woke him so he could hear the .22. I'd tried to get the bandit on previous nights with the .22 but the narrow degrees I had for a safe shot exceeded my wing shooting abilities with a rifle on a moving target, AKA running raccoon, at least in very low light.
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  #164  
Old 05-20-2020, 02:53 PM
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...I walked over to it and finished it off...
This right here is the point. When it comes to self-defense, you never, ever want to have to "finish" the bad guy after the shot. You want to stop him with the very first shot.

The need for shot placement never goes away so, you still have to put the shot where it counts. But, a perfectly placed shot of #4 shot might stop him, but 00 Buck will definitely stop him.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:36 PM
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LOL, it stopped him, he wasn't going anywhere. I wanted him dead but I didn't want him to suffer. I figure if 20 yards works that well then 7 yards or less inside a house where it's still pretty much just one column of shot should work better.
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  #166  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:03 PM
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LOL, it stopped him, he wasn't going anywhere. I wanted him dead but I didn't want him to suffer. I figure if 20 yards works that well then 7 yards or less inside a house where it's still pretty much just one column of shot should work better.
Did it take the fight out of him? If that raccoon had been armed, could he have returned fire? If he would have been 160 lbs. vs. 10 lbs, would it have stopped him? Did you ever carry #6 shot in your shotgun while on duty?
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  #167  
Old 05-20-2020, 11:18 PM
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While the target certainly looks devastating, the penetration testing with birdshot shows otherwise. The little pellets don't have enough mass to penetrate to the vital organs, especially after passing through clothing.

After looking at these two videos, I settled on the Federal Tactical #1 Buck. But everyone can do as they like.

Multiple size shot tests

Federal Tactical #1 Buck test
Unfortunatly, this Flite Control load of fifteen .285", 33 grain pellets was discontinued approximately 2 years ago.

According to current SAAMI voluntary industry standards, .285" lead buckshot pellets could be accurately described as American, (previously Eastern), #2B, or #1B.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:46 PM
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Did it take the fight out of him? If that raccoon had been armed, could he have returned fire? If he would have been 160 lbs. vs. 10 lbs, would it have stopped him? Did you ever carry #6 shot in your shotgun while on duty?
Really? No the coon was in no condition to fight and it sure as heck wasn't a baby 10 lb coon. It was a fat full grown coon. I didn't weigh it but maybe 45 lbs. At that range, no it likely wouldn't have put a man down but he wouldn't be feeling too good. No, the only rounds carried in my duty shotgun were slugs, 00 buck and bean bags, but I'm no longer on the job and I'm not worried about shooting through windshields, car doors, etc. I'm also not likely to be shooting somebody 20 yards away inside my house.
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Old 05-21-2020, 12:59 AM
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Really? No the coon was in no condition to fight and it sure as heck wasn't a baby 10 lb coon. It was a fat full grown coon. I didn't weigh it but maybe 45 lbs. At that range, no it likely wouldn't have put a man down but he wouldn't be feeling too good. No, the only rounds carried in my duty shotgun were slugs, 00 buck and bean bags, but I'm no longer on the job and I'm not worried about shooting through windshields, car doors, etc. I'm also not likely to be shooting somebody 20 yards away inside my house.
You guys have some big raccoons if it was 45 lbs! But you answered the question, it wouldn't have put a man down at that range... and FBI gelatin tests say that it wouldn't have put a man down at closer ranges either, and that is why you carried OO buck in your shotgun.

My simple answer is to look at what your local police officers carry. They are likely to engage at across the room distances just like a homeowner. I don't recommend the less lethal loads, as in your home you won't have several others there for back up. That leaves you with 00 buck and slugs. I personally don't keep slugs in my HD shotgun, as I don't anticipate shooting through barriers such as a windshield, but YMMV.
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  #170  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:54 AM
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I always love it when I have to go and retrieve another firearm to finish the job. If only there were a firearm that were smoothbore and capable of variable levels of power to engage the birds of the air and the beasts of the forest...

The only raccoon I ever shot with #6 turned around on me. I was fortunate to have been properly instructed in shotgun use and had cycled the action. I fired again with buckshot and at that point the discussion was over. Do folks really just run around with shotguns and fine shot responding to disturbances? I always take buckshot.
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Old 05-21-2020, 06:52 AM
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out pheasant hunting and scared up a coyote out of a weed patch. at 25 yards 1 1/2 ounces of #4 birdshot and it was DRT. if you have shot a coyote is that they are fairly easy kill if hit in the right place. if you don't get the right place you have some more work to do.

I keep the short mag #4's for in the apartment use. the end of my hallway is 14 feet from the door and that load will leave a very big mark at that distance.

when I travel with the shotgun I have Federal 00 buckshot and Brenneke slugs
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Old 05-22-2020, 06:53 PM
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Unfortunatly, this Flite Control load of fifteen .285", 33 grain pellets was discontinued approximately 2 years ago.

According to current SAAMI voluntary industry standards, .285" lead buckshot pellets could be accurately described as American, (previously Eastern), #2B, or #1B.
Point: Virtually all domestic buckshot cartridges are loaded with sub diameter pellets. To the point some marketed as "00B" factory loads contain pellets as small as .30".

Indeed, most factory loaded buckshot pellets are formed from soft lead to the point most emerge from the muzzle significantly deformed. A notable exception is the Remington LE buckshot line which are loaded with pellets hardened with a 3% antimony content and advertised as such.

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Old 05-22-2020, 07:43 PM
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All this talk about #4 Birdshot brings me back to the day that I picked up my Shockwave from the gunshop...

When I asked the man behind the counter for some 00 Buckshot to go with it, he advised me not to use it for Home Defense because it could pierce right through walls and handed me a box of Federal #4 Turkey Shot instead. I insisted that I still wanted a box of 00 Buckshot all the same and he said; "Okay, but save it for the range."

I appreciated the gesture, but I live in a valley surrounded by wooded hills and all entraces into my house as well as my bedroom aren't facing any neighboring houses, so there's no real risk of collateral damage, and I'd rather patch up some holes in my house than risk using less than adequate ammunition for Self-Defense. Besides, I've seen enough tests online to know that pretty much everything will penetrate interior walls, so there's really no avoiding it without selecting less than lethal ammo like rubber buckshot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that at the very least #4 Turkey Shot would leave behind one heck of a nasty wound that would most likely result in death without immediate medical attention, but I'd rather just stick with 00 Buckshot. The way I see it is, anybody who continues their advance after hearing the sound of shotgun chambering a round, much less peering into the gaping maw that is a 12 Gauge muzzle probably won't stop for anything short of total incapacitation.
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Old 05-23-2020, 03:23 AM
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In case anyone is interested here's Paul Harrell's birdshot video:

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Old 05-24-2020, 05:19 PM
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In case anyone is interested here's Paul Harrell's birdshot video:
Paul is entertaining, with his meat targets and all... but, I think I'll stick with the scientists and ballistics experts who just say no to bird shot.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:59 PM
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I have... and a turkey is still a bird, and #4 turkey load is still bird shot. The pellet in #4 bird shot is less than half the size of #1 buck. Still not a reliable man stopper.
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:23 PM
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You know not of what you speak.
So tell me, how many men have you shot with your turkey load to know that it will RELIABLY penetrate enough to hit vital organs when fired at a intruder?

The #4 shot fails to reach the 13" penetration in ballistics gel to RELIABLY hit CNS in a human being.


I'll ask you the same question I asked Oink... Ever see a police officer carry bird shot or turkey load? Why not? I was taught to use the right tool for the job.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:18 PM
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So tell me, how many men have you shot with your turkey load to know that it will RELIABLY penetrate enough to hit vital organs when fired at a intruder?

The #4 shot fails to reach the 13" penetration in ballistics gel to RELIABLY hit CNS in a human being.

----
I'll ask you the same question I asked Oink... Ever see a police officer carry bird shot or turkey load? Why not? I was taught to use the right tool for the job.
I haven't shot any person with anything (well there were a few bb gun incidents). But I'm sufficiently certain my loads will work.

I'm not real concerned with the FBI's 13". I'm not on duty and I'm no longer an LEO. I won't be shooting through windshields or at targets I can't see. No I didn't carry birdshot on the job. Actually I don't think I ever took my shotgun for building interior use. I only took it for felony traffic stops or robbery type calls. Both of which are more likely to involve distance or need for penetration. Actually, I guess there were a few raids involving a shotgun but I wasn't ever that guy. Oh, and some use on man hunts.

I'll stick with my bird shot for my first couple of rounds.
You use whatever you want.

Last edited by oink; 05-25-2020 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:35 PM
RMcL RMcL is offline
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Exclamation

It seems something is missing in this discussion.

Let's see:

"Buckshot is simply lead shot formed to larger diameters. Sizes range in ascending order from size B to Tri-Ball."

Lead Shot Applications - Nuclead

Translation: Lead buckshot pellets run from .17" to .60" in diameter.

I recall reading a vintage article on Pre-War Brocket Deer hunting in Central and Latin America. It seems lead "T-Buck", (.20"), was quite popular for pursuing the diminutive deer.

All this to say:

Perhaps there is a gap in the home defense shotshell market that could effectively be filled by a simple load of lead "T-Buck." These 5mm pellets run aproximately 38 pellets to the ounce.

Last edited by RMcL; 05-26-2020 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:47 PM
RMcL RMcL is offline
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Default Since 20 gauge buckshot has been mentioned:

Frankly all readily available 20 gauge buckshot cartridges are sorely in need of technical performance upgrades.

Indeed all 20 bore buck loads, with the exception of having coarse buffer added, are simply gas seal and filler wad designs. No shot cup, no Flite-Control wads, etc.

Even with the current crop of near obsolescent commercial 20 gauge buckshot offerings, pattern performance can still be substantially improved by using choke fitted 20 gauge youth length barrels.*

Something to consider.

*18.5" to 22"

Last edited by RMcL; 06-08-2020 at 09:43 PM.
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  #181  
Old 05-31-2020, 11:32 PM
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Wood & Steel Wood & Steel is offline
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During the 2008-2013 Obama/Sandyhook shooting fallout it was all about acquiring hi-cap semi-auto rifles and pistols and now 18" barrel home defense shotguns are all the rage.

And here I thought the trusty shotgun was always going to be the old reliable stand-by.

Last edited by Wood & Steel; 05-31-2020 at 11:35 PM.
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