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Old 04-02-2020, 02:36 AM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Default Shotgun Resurgence?

LGS near me reports shotguns, especially pump actions, have flown off the shelves in recent weeks due to the events. I heard online from a very large gun shop in Utah (Gunnies Gun Shop in Orem) shotguns have been a number one seller. They have said AR15s are not selling as fast as the shotguns.

That and tactical/defensive 12 gauge ammo has sold just as fast. Online, it just isn’t available. Even Ammoseek is reporting almost every shop is out of great loads like the Federal Tactical 00 buckshot. I’ve read the factories are ramping up production of specifically 12 gauge defense oriented loads, among the usual .22, 9mm, etc.

Seems the home defense shotgun is FAR from dead, as some have proposed in recent years. All the new gun buyers wanting to protect their castles and toilet paper. I’m cool with it. Seems we may very well be entering a new resurgence of the popularity of the defensive shotgun.

Just interesting. Here’s mine:



No wonder local PDs are reporting all-time lows in home invasions?

-Jay

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Old 04-02-2020, 03:24 AM
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My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:53 AM
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Phil—I don’t know how much experience your daughter has with guns but those shotguns are a handful. I think the regular stocked Remington 870 youth model 20 gauge is hard to beat.

This is one of the best gun articles I have ever read and by one of our Fourm members to boot.

Consider the 20-gauge shotgun - Backwoods Home Magazine
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.
Birdshot loads spread to 18" at 10 yds. Up to you to decide how long a range you figure it's good for.
12 G recoil is stout even with Skeet loads. I've shot mine with slugs and it's doable but you notice for sure.
20 G is nicer to shoot, still devastating at close range.
Hip shooting is not at all intuitive. My first try I missed an 18" square at 10 yds with birdshot. I put lasers on mine. You need some arm strength to keep the guns out of your face if you use the bead sight.
I put a TAC brace on the 12, decided it was more comfortable to
shoot with the birdshead, so switched back.
Unless you practice, practice, practice with these for proficiency I'd recommend a regular shotgun.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:29 AM
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Understandable....... panic buyers

Shotguns don't need magazines, optics or added sights ..... not to mention sighted in even if just iron sights..... most panic buyers probably don't have access to a range...............

Do the shops have 5.56 to sell with the AR's....... or are the shelves bare??

Shotgun pretty much get by with the gun and 2 5rd boxes of shells

Also a lot of folks still believe the urban/movie/TV myth that a shotgun will pattern to clear a hallway at 10 ft
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.
Mossburg makes a nice 20 gauge youth model 510......18 inch barrel, 35 OAL 3+1........ short LOP 10-11" IIRC...... put a sleeve on the stock for 5 or 6 extra shells
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:56 AM
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Folks... The Gun Industry has for years pushed Tact Cool laser optic Bla Bla, its Foolish. Things have not changed in 140 years from the frontier days, that is, Gun fights at home are fast violent affair that the first on trigger normally lives. Folks who have No experience with weapons needs something simple and effective. 12 Ga shells in 7 or 8 shot is Perfect to Kill a Human out to 25 Yds or so, 100 Yds it will welt the skin. I Know first hand as Ive treated Several folks with 12 ga Bird shot Blasts fired Close...it Blew a 3 Inch Hole through the Mans Chest. For MOST home gun fights the 20/12 Ga with 7 shot is fine.

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Old 04-02-2020, 08:31 AM
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I picked up a Charles Daly "Honcho" 20 ga. not too long ago when one of the online dealers had them for $240. After popping a few shells out back to see what it would do, I put the 870 in the safe and set the Daly in the rack. Not a bad little gun at all. They're made in Turkey, but they are nicely finished, only weigh around 6 or 6.5 pounds and handle as well or better than my AR pistol.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:36 AM
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I would steer clear of magnum loads for self defense, but standard loads of #4 buckshot down to #7 birdshot should be pretty good for home defense. As for pistol grip stocks on shotguns, ok if you are proficient with them, but I think most people are better off with a full stock.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.
Hello CrazyPhil
SW 20G owner here...I absolutely love it.
In my case it is not a SD firearm , this is one of my "fun-guns"
For the purpose of HD , this would play a great protective role if required.

I view only 1 negative w this firearm.

The manor in which you hold this gun and put it on target is very precise...and obviously you will not "shoulder" this as you would a normal shotgun.


Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) loves this gun
Chris Baker (The Lucky Gunner) calls this gun "useless"
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 6518John View Post
Phil—I don’t know how much experience your daughter has with guns but those shotguns are a handful. I think the regular stocked Remington 870 youth model 20 gauge is hard to beat.

This is one of the best gun articles I have ever read and by one of our Fourm members to boot.

Consider the 20-gauge shotgun - Backwoods Home Magazine
I would definitely not suggest a Shockwave and certainly not to my wife or sister.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.
I’d go with a standard shotgun or even a traditional pistol grip over the shockwave.

My wife has a 410 bore Mossberg 500 pistol grip. She’s had it for a few years and shoots it very well. I mounted a green laser on it and she can run our shotgun soda can course very quickly. Handling, target acquisition (with or without the laser) is very easy for her. We stay away from the “Judge” ammo and stick with real 410 buckshot.

We tried my brother in laws shockwave and it wasn’t for either of us. Both of us prefer a standard shotgun or a traditional pistol grip. My wife is able to handle a pistol grip and shoot it high enough (not just from the hip) to be able to get a bead on target. The shockwave, not so much.

I’d say the best thing for your daughter is to try the different setups (standard stock, pistol grip, shockwave) and see what she likes best. If she can’t shoot them all, at least handle each one. Everybody is different and has their own preferences.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:06 AM
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Shotguns you do not shoulder are about as useful as a draw and fire from the hip with a handgun. Yes,I own one (tac-14) but just because I LOVE shotguns and goofy toys.

However...for anyone wanting to buy a shotgun for home self defense,I would suggest an autoloader in most any brand. I really like the Mossberg 930 for quality and price. Why an autoloader?? All you need to do is watch a few people struggle with a pump action.
Let's face it..most people do NOT practice actually shooting very much,and for them I suggest an autoloader. Less felt recoil and most hold 5 rounds,so even if they don't practice much..it's pretty straightforward. Load it,(including chamber) put the safety on. Need it: safety off,pull trigger.Repeat till empty or threat is neutralized.
Hollywood loves the pump..and that menacing RACK ONE IN..but such foolishness is only meant for Hollywood drama...

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Old 04-02-2020, 09:40 AM
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A couple months ago I got a Charles Daly Honcho in 410, it has the spring return (which you can remove the spring and it will function just fine) and is easy for small people to operate. It doesn't kick very much and can use all the new handgun 410 self defense loads that have come out lately. The bad thing is that apparently everybody is out except for 2 on Gun Broker for about $1000.00. Another bad point is that it is fun to shoot, I went threw a box of 000 buck before I realized it.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:55 AM
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Patrol Officers saying:
" one might survive a handgun round at close range, but not a shotgun round"
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:59 AM
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I prefer the Mossy 500 myself.



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Old 04-02-2020, 10:00 AM
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Well, Pump Shotguns are cheap, reliable, and extremely powerful, ergo when folks suddenly feel the urge to purchase a firearm fuelled by paranoia, then reach for what they know, and Pump Shotguns have a long history of use in the Military, Law Enforcement, and perhaps most importantly, Hollywood.

They're easily recognized even by a complete novice as firearms carried by Soldiers, Police, and their favorite Action Hero on the silver screen as reliable workhorse firearms that pack a serious punch.

Sure, the AR-15 has a similar reputation, but it's significantly more expensive, is constantly demonized by the media as an evil weapon used only by criminals, and has less dramatic/decisive effects when fired in movies.
Seriously, in the movies the guy with the shotgun almost always hits his mark and with devastating results , whereas the guys with ARs are either constantly missing or shooting at something like a Tank or a Monster which obviously takes no damage from it.

Even I use a Pump Shotgun for Home Defense, albeit a less conventional one.
Updated Ammoland Study on Pistol Efficacy-mossberg_590_shockwave_fde-jpg
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Seems the home defense shotgun is FAR from dead, as some have proposed in recent years.
I'm not a shotgun guy, but that's news to me. I've never heard anyone say the home defense shotgun is dead. It's popularity may have waned compared to rifles/carbines, but considering new self-defense oriented shotguns have been introduced in the last few years, like LTT's Beretta semi-auto shotgun or Stoeger's "tactical" SxS, not to mention the rise of Shockwave and Tac-14 guns, I would never have considered the shotgun dead.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:18 AM
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Up till 1982 the shotgun was the most commonly owned/admitted owning firearm. It got replaced by the rifle at that point. Don't know what the percentages are today.

A couple of years ago the local paper published the views on firearms of a wide variety of local folks. The general opinion for home defense was "Git you a shotgun".

Not necessarily a bad choice, but might not be the best choice. OTOH, as noted above, the price can be right and a shotgun beats a stern look and a harsh word. There's the myth and legend thing too. That might make actual use unnecessary. But, the user cannot count on the myths & legends. I'm aware of a few documented tragic incidents resulting from the use of shotguns.

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Old 04-02-2020, 10:55 AM
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My favorite shotgun, I have several, is the Remington V3 Tac 13. It is short, easy to deploy and shoot, and I have a bandoleer full of reduced recoil shells for it. I have always liked shotguns as Dad gave me my first one at age 10, a .410 Winchester pump.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:16 AM
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I'm sure this is based on non-gun people thinking that a shotgun is a point-and-shoot weapon that kills the bad guy with the first shot because the shot spreads out and hits the guy with a blanket of lead. The reality couldn't be further from the truth, at least as far as the shot spread is concerned.

I use Federal Tactical Low Recoil #1 Buck in my Kel-Tec KSG (photo below). I patterned the gun because it's the only way to truly know how the gun handles the load at different distances. I got the results I expected, which you can see in the photos below.

The net result is that pretty much any shotgun will be similar to a single large projectile at typical home defense distances, which is under 10 yards (unless you have a really big house). This is why there's a red dot on my KSG.






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Old 04-02-2020, 11:42 AM
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Norinco made a pretty good 870 clone. All forged parts, no MIM, unlike Remington's current standard 870. Ghost ring sights are handy and effective. If two rounds of buckshot and three slugs are not enough then, "You inna heap'o'trouble...boy!"
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:45 AM
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I have always wondered what the wad would do to a ner-do-well? I suspect after the 00 buck, the wad would be the least of the worries, but I bet that dang thing would leave a mark!
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:29 PM
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I have always wondered what the wad would do to a ner-do-well? I suspect after the 00 buck, the wad would be the least of the worries, but I bet that dang thing would leave a mark!
Yeah, it almost seems like an afterthought insult. And one more thing for the surgeon to find.
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:48 PM
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The net result is that pretty much any shotgun will be similar to a single large projectile at typical home defense distances, which is under 10 yards (unless you have a really big house). This is why there's a red dot on my KSG.
Attached, (edit) #8 target load 20 gauge, 10 yds. 14" cylinder bore barrel. #6 game loads about the same pattern size.
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:18 PM
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I have always wondered what the wad would do to a ner-do-well? I suspect after the 00 buck, the wad would be the least of the worries, but I bet that dang thing would leave a mark!
At ten yards, with #7 shot, Tac-14, the wad would knock over our target stands
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:20 PM
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OUCH!!!!!!!
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Old 04-02-2020, 01:50 PM
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Attached, #6 game load 20 gauge, 10 yds. 14" cylinder bore barrel.
While the target certainly looks devastating, the penetration testing with birdshot shows otherwise. The little pellets don't have enough mass to penetrate to the vital organs, especially after passing through clothing.

After looking at these two videos, I settled on the Federal Tactical #1 Buck. But everyone can do as they like.

Multiple size shot tests

Federal Tactical #1 Buck test
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:05 PM
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While the target certainly looks devastating, the penetration testing with birdshot shows otherwise. The little pellets don't have enough mass to penetrate to the vital organs, especially after passing through clothing.
There was a news story in the previous city I lived in where an elderly woman used a shotgun with birdshot (don't know the size or the range, but it looked like a modest-sized house) to defend herself against a couple of home invaders, who were later caught. The one who got shot had minor injuries, with most of the shot being stopped by his leather jacket. I guess you could say it worked, though, as both offenders fled immediately after being shot at. Personally, not something I would want to count on. If I go the shotgun route, I'd be leaning towards #1 buck, or #4 buck if I can't find #1.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:08 PM
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Not necessarily a bad choice, but might not be the best choice.
I'm not a long gun guy, and my experience shooting shotguns is minimal, but I've also seriously considered getting a long gun for home defense. While a shotgun would be nice to have and would work quite well, for me, personally, I think a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) would suit my needs/wants a bit better, so I'd probably get one of those before a shotgun.

Still wanna get a shotgun, though.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:10 PM
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I'm sure this guy laughed this off as a "mere flesh wound".
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Breakaway500 View Post
However...for anyone wanting to buy a shotgun for home self defense,I would suggest an autoloader in most any brand.
Again, not a shotgun guy, but when doing my research I found myself leaning towards getting a semi-auto rather than a pump. Not because of difficulty with the pump, though. I've had some training with the Remington 870 and can't recall ever having issues with the pump. Of course, I've also never had to work the pump while someone was trying to kill me. What swayed my thinking was the thought of Special Agent Ed Mireles trying to work an 870 pump one-handed during the 1986 Miami Shootout. I like the idea of self defense guns that can be operated one-handed if necessary, including long guns.

However, I still like the Ithaca 37/87 with its downward shell ejection; if I start getting into long guns, I plan on doing it as a lefty since I'm cross-dominant.

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Originally Posted by Breakaway500 View Post
Load it,(including chamber) put the safety on.
This is something I've always been concerned about with long guns. My understanding is that they don't have passive safeties to keep a gun from discharging if dropped, like most handguns do. I've always seen it recommended to keep the mag full but the chamber empty, whether rifle or shotgun, pump or semi-auto, when stored but ready for action if needed, including instructors I've had.

But as I said before, I'm not all that familiar with long guns, so I could be wrong.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:34 PM
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Not really surprising. “Just get a shotgun” for home defense is a common recommendation from hunters, backyard shooters or semi-educated gun guys to complete beginners who come to them with questions and are simply wanting a means of self-defense “just in case”. Plus they are generally affordable. For me, a shotgun can serve a role or specific niche or even be ideal in certain specific circumstances, but I think they are a terrible choice if only having one gun, especially for an untrained novice.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Again, not a shotgun guy, but when doing my research I found myself leaning towards getting a semi-auto rather than a pump. Not because of difficulty with the pump, though. I've had some training with the Remington 870 and can't recall ever having issues with the pump. Of course, I've also never had to work the pump while someone was trying to kill me. What swayed my thinking was the thought of Special Agent Ed Mireles trying to work an 870 pump one-handed during the 1986 Miami Shootout. I like the idea of self defense guns that can be operated one-handed if necessary, including long guns.

However, I still like the Ithaca 37/87 with its downward shell ejection; if I start getting into long guns, I plan on doing it as a lefty since I'm cross-dominant.



This is something I've always been concerned about with long guns. My understanding is that they don't have passive safeties to keep a gun from discharging if dropped, like most handguns do. I've always seen it recommended to keep the mag full but the chamber empty, whether rifle or shotgun, pump or semi-auto, when stored but ready for action if needed, including instructors I've had.

But as I said before, I'm not all that familiar with long guns, so I could be wrong.
I'm cross-eye dominant, shoot long guns left handed, and prefer the Mossberg 500 due to the tang safety.

I do have a semi, a Black Aces (Turkish) that I just couldn't pass up for less than four bills with real walnut furniture. I still really need to break it in, but it's a solid gun.

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Old 04-02-2020, 02:46 PM
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I'm cross-eye dominant, shoot long guns left handed, and prefer the Mossberg 500 due to the tang safety.
That's another one I've considered. I think Mossberg makes a semi-auto with tang safety, too. 935...? It's been a while since I've looked into them.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:00 PM
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The 930s should be laid out the same.

Having the ease of visually checking the chamber when firing left handed is a benefit. I never get distracted by shells flying around as I'm looking at the target when shooting.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:10 PM
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The 930s should be laid out the same.

Having the ease of visually checking the chamber when firing left handed is a benefit. I never get distracted by shells flying around as I'm looking at the target when shooting.
Cool. Thanks. I'm more worried about getting hit in the face with ejected shells than being visually distracted. That's why I like the Ithaca 37/87 with it's downward ejection, or ARs with case deflectors. I'd rather not get a lefty-specific gun/controls, though.

P.S.: Off topic, but from your username I think we like the same movie.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:16 PM
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For home (or other stationary) defense purposes, nothing makes more sense, and is more deadly, than a handy shotgun. I won't get into the merits of types, gauges,or shot sizes as it doesn't make that much difference in results. For me, it's a 12 Gauge pump loaded with #4 Buck.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:20 PM
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Cool. Thanks. I'm more worried about getting hit in the face with ejected shells than being visually distracted. That's why I like the Ithaca 37/87 with it's downward ejection, or ARs with case deflectors. I'd rather not get a lefty-specific gun/controls, though.

P.S.: Off topic, but from your username I think we like the same movie.
Not many people get it. Movie is over 35 years old now. I don't even know why I started using it as a gun forum username. I think I had just seen the movie again and thought it would be cute.

Just remember, red Lectroids bad, black Lectroids good.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:25 PM
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Not many people get it. Movie is over 35 years old now. I don't even know why I started using it as a gun forum username. I think I had just seen the movie again and thought it would be cute.

Just remember, red Lectroids bad, black Lectroids good.
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:30 PM
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Again, not a shotgun guy, but when doing my research I found myself leaning towards getting a semi-auto rather than a pump.
When I laid out courses of fire for shotgun that were tactically oriented I was shocked at the number of folks who didn't automatically cycle a fresh round into the chamber. Probably shouldn't have been. The semi eliminates that failure.

Quote:
My understanding is that they don't have passive safeties to keep a gun from discharging if dropped, like most handguns do. I've always seen it recommended to keep the mag full but the chamber empty, whether rifle or shotgun, pump or semi-auto, when stored but ready for action if needed, including instructors I've had.
Virtually all shotguns have trigger blocking safeties and therefore aren't drop safe. Generally, if you can apply the safety when the hammer/striker isn't cocked, you have a trigger blocking safety. Sear blocking safeties are much better in that respect.

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Old 04-02-2020, 05:39 PM
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If one must use "Birdshot" aim for the face or crotch





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There was a news story in the previous city I lived in where an elderly woman used a shotgun with birdshot (don't know the size or the range, but it looked like a modest-sized house) to defend herself against a couple of home invaders, who were later caught. The one who got shot had minor injuries, with most of the shot being stopped by his leather jacket. I guess you could say it worked, though, as both offenders fled immediately after being shot at. Personally, not something I would want to count on. If I go the shotgun route, I'd be leaning towards #1 buck, or #4 buck if I can't find #1.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:59 PM
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If one must use "Birdshot" aim for the face or crotch
That's actually good advice in general.

Headshots tend to be incapacitating and a good shot to the pelvis will disable the attackers ability to remain standing. Besides, even if you don't hit their brain or spine, the odds of them being temporarily blinded by getting blood spattered in their eyes is pretty high. Furthermore, a missed shot to the pelvis is still going to hit something important.

Also, when engaging a sexual predator, a crotch shot is obviously the most appropriate spot to aim for.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:02 PM
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That's actually good advice in general.

Headshots tend to be incapacitating and a good shot to the pelvis will disable the attackers ability to remain standing. Besides, even if you don't hit their brain or spine, the odds of them being temporarily blinded by getting blood spattered in their eyes is pretty high. Furthermore, a missed shot to the pelvis is still going to hit something important.

Also, when engaging a sexual predator, a crouch shot is obviously the most appropriate spot to aim for.
The target with a shotgun should be no different that the target with any other gun. Center mass. Anything else is dangerous, especially under the stress of needing to use deadly force.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:05 PM
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I've always had a shotgun close at hand for home defense as well as a trusty S&W revolver. That shotgun being a youth model 20ga Mossberg 500.
I recently acquired this Circa 1970's Mossberg 500ATP. It was imported - purportedly used by the Malaysian army. Extended tube with bayonet M16 mounting lug. Bluing is all gone if it ever had any and the furniture is worn. Overall shape is fair to good but the action and internals are all working well.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:12 PM
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The history of shotguns for personal defense is centuries long. Blunderbusses loaded with gravel or nails served very well as a defense against highwaymen or burglars. "Buck and ball" muskets provided many pioneers with both home protection and hunting capabilities. Shotguns were commonly used in the American Revolution and later in the Civil War, either with buckshot or "punkin balls". Stage coach guards and express agents relied on shotguns to protect their charges. US Postal Service guards carried shotguns in performing their duties. Shotguns were feared and reviled in WW1 trench warfare, to a point that German troops frequently executed any Allied soldiers armed with shotguns. Shotguns were issued to American forces in WW2, and highly regarded for close combat in such places as Guadalcanal and the Phillipines. Shotguns were in general issue when I served in Vietnam, with both buckshot and "nail rounds" (fleschette cartridges loaded with nail-like darts). Shotguns have been in common use by American law enforcement officers for as long as there have been American law enforcement officers.

I still keep a Remington 870 12-gauge pump at home, loaded with 2-3/4" field loads of BB-shot, about 90 pellets of .17 to .18 caliber. The longest unobstructed distance in my home is less than 40 feet. I doubt that anyone on the receiving end would ever know the difference between 1.25 oz. of BB's or a rifled slug, but I know my ammo will not penetrate two interior walls or one exterior wall.

A good shotgun makes a fine defensive weapon for the home. Minimal training and minimal experience required for maximum effectiveness in times of need.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:23 PM
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Lots of remarks... But again I say that High Brass in a Home with others inside is foolish. As I posted above Ive treated several folks that were DOA but I had to do the ER GSW Protocol till a MD could call the Code. Ive shot #7 shot at 12 Yds into a HD 5 gal water Bucket and it blew through it. Anyone who says it wont go through a Leather Jacket is ...well.... Kind of out of reality.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:23 PM
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Interesting timing. This just popped up on my YouTube feed.

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Old 04-02-2020, 07:35 PM
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" Shotguns were feared and reviled in WW1 trench warfare, to a point that German troops frequently executed any Allied soldiers armed with shotguns. "

The Germans threatened to do that, but never did any executions. Pershing set them straight that if anything like that happened, the AEF would adopt a "Take No Prisoners" policy.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:47 PM
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for a first time firearms buyer, with no previous experience, a shotgun is the best bet.

Their current popularity doesn't surprise me in the least.
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