About Jim Grant
Jim is a freelance writer, editor, and videographer for dozens of publications who loves anything and everything guns.



See, he is an expert so pay attention!

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Still Running Against the Wind

I'd wager that in addition to never mastering the snubnose revolver, the author breaks out in a cold sweat at the thought of driving a vehicle with a manual transmission.

The young man's article was basically a gentle rehash of the long-standing common complaints about small revolvers and their users.

Well, writers need to write. That was basically a simple knock-out piece that didn't cover any new ground and probably entertained some readers who had seen snub revolvers in display cases and secretly wondered about someday buying one.

I thought it was probably aimed at the crowd of relatively younger gun owners (40's and under) who had been raised in the "modern defensive pistol era". If that's your target audience, you write to it.

Me? The older I become, the more I appreciate my J-frames. Of course, that's primarily because I invested so much trigger time using them on the range while working as a LE firearms instructor, and having started in LE during the last hurrah of service revolvers.

The article had the usual generalized complaints about the difficulties experienced by inexperienced revolver shooters. Well, it's not like that's changed any, right?

I've owned and have carried a pair of 642-1's, a pair of M&P 340's (with & without the ILS), a older 649 (.38SPL), a neat 37-2DAO and a couple of 36's (nickel 3" and blue 2").

Well, I've owned and carried some other "snubs", including a pair of original 3" CA Bulldogs (blue & stainless), 2 1/4" SP101DAO, 2 1/2" & 3" K-frames and an assortment of snub Security/Speed-Six wheelies (wish I still owned those Rugers).

Complaints about a "short sight radius" isn't an excuse not to be able to make solid hits with 2"-3" revolvers out to distances far beyond those encountered in "normal" self defensive distances. I regularly ran my J-frames out to 40-50yds on standard paper and reduced size steel silhouettes and poppers. It wasn't the "short sight radius" so much as the itty bitty targets perched atop the comparatively wider sights. (That was one instance where the thin dime-thick 649 front ramp and rear notch was actually handier than the newer wide ramp/notch of the newer snubs. )

My SA-capable 2" 649 and 3" 36 allowed me to get hits at the longer distances as easily as when using my 4" revolvers ... albeit it took a moment longer to recover from +P felt recoil if I was using +P loads in the lighter +P capable snubs. The DA & DAO snubs naturally made me work harder at it as the distances got out there.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I didn't read the article. I do believe j-frames are difficult to shoot at distance and are not the best choice for new shooters, especially those with weaker hands. I'm always surprised when someone recommends them as a first gun for a woman.

I have two, a 36 and a 442. With tiny grips they are not fun to shoot. With bigger rubber grips, which I put on my 442, recoil is tolerable.

Fine for carry, IMO. Defense, yep. Are there better choices, oh yeah. But I tote mine without fear. I also sometimes carry a .32 APC.

Recently I saw an episode of Forgotten Weapons where Ian interviewed a well-known defense guy...can't remember who, it was late at night and I was recovering from a sickness. Anyway, this guy studied shootings, apparently, and said that almost any time a potential victim produces a gun and uses it against an attacker, he will almost certainly win. People don't want to get shot. At least I THINK I remember him saying this.Wish I'd listened more carefully and had a better memory for names.

I guess this applies in reverse as well.

I read the article before I read all of the subsequent comments. I had to agree with him in some cases and was surprised to read all of the negative comments afterwards.

A friend's wife bought the very gun that was used in the article. She's of small stature with small hands. She just can't master the trigger pull of a DAO. Her mistake was listening to the hype of the gun dealer about how professionals use the gun. The end result is that now she does not carry at all. Considering her profession, she is the one person that SHOULD carry.

I personally don't like DAOs because I like the ability to cock the hammer if I want to. If I don't want to the double action works anyway. But that's just me.

I carry a 3" model 36, or a LCPII, depending on the clothes I wear.

Click-Bait
I didn't fall for it though.

The title caused me to avoid even opening the article. No interest in some couch commando's opinion.

Just looking through the posts to see who's fur he rubbed the wrong way.

Mostly I carry a LW 45 commander.. but I'm not afraid when I only have my Mdl 60 in my back pocket..

You just have to remember that when it's time to play, you 'aint playin'...

Ah, another "if you don't have the latest and greatest fantastic plastic 47+1 super-elastic mini-super-micro bottom feeder YOU GONNA DIE!!!" article.

(yawn)

(zzzzzz)

Bet he gets some payola from Glock etc.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Admittedly, perhaps my perspective is a bit skewed on the subject of snub .38's.

However, I tend to look at it this way ...

Once I was able to demonstrate to myself that my own ability to run a J-frame could let me produce a "cold" 1-handed "close combat" 5-shot group that clustered in an approx clenched fist-size group, fired from 3-5yds, in approx 3 secs or less ... and then a 2-handed group, fired flash/front-sight, at 5yds, producing a similarly-sized clenched fist group, in 2 secs ... I stopped worrying about the inherent accuracy of the venerable snub revolver.

It's not the limitations of the actual revolver, but the limitations of the revolver user, that's probably going to make the most difference.

Yes, many folks find it more difficult to shoot a revolver, let alone a diminutive J-frame, compared to some of the modern pistols available. Fine. That's a shooter's choice, based upon a shooter's realization of his/her own skill limitations.

"Terminal ballistics"? Well, when we talking about what's essentially a "threshold" centerfire defensive caliber, if a particular shooter and their revolver are able to take advantage of the newest advances in defensive ammunition for the .38SPL, that's not a bad thing. (I'd still rather have a 5-shot .38 snub loaded with low-powered target wadcutters, or even 158gr LSWC, instead of a .25 or .32, when it comes right down to it.)

So, what's a "threshold defensive caliber"?

Kinda depends on the user's perspective, I'd think. I'd roughly opine that category of calibers to consist of .380ACP, .38SPL and 9mm, in about that ascending order. The emphasis on ammunition development for the 9mm as a service round, and the prevalence of the modern 9mm pistol in "duty" circles, with the .38SPL snubs usually relegated to Secondary/Backup, off-duty and personal defensive chores, understandably offers an advantage to the 9mm over the .38SPL.

Now, I own some .38/.357 snubs and some 9mm pistols of compact & subcompact size. The pistols offer me an advantage of magazine capacity ranging from 7-10rds, with larger grip frames and slides running on recoil springs to help soften felt recoil. However, I can't slip any of my 9mm pistols into my jeans front pockets ... like I can my J-frames and pair of LCP pistols.

Handguns are a COMPROMISE when it comes to defensive carry use.

Consider your anticipated task(s), your carry circumstances and lifestyle activities, and your level of skillset development and abilities ... and then choose where, on the great range of the handgun COMPROMISE spectrum, you wish to be if your life is on the line.

It's not a talisman. It's a tool. The tool-user is going to shoulder the significant amount of how "effective" the tool might be in any given situation.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

As a writer, I can appreciate what he did --- you all read the article and are discussing it.

Sometimes writers play the heel to do this very thing.

But I'll continue to carry a Glock 26 (or 34) when I can and a 442PC when I can't. For the wilderness I'm all S&W: 686+ or 629 most of the time, but that's not really the focus of the article.

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Psalm 27:2

This is the difference between mechanical and practical accuracy. The snubnose has a surprisingly good mechanical accuracy and a low practical accuracy, while, say, an open-bolt machinegun on a bipod is the opposite.

Very few people can outshoot their pistol under stress (at normal ranges), so the discussion tends to go toward that long DA pull, capacity, and the reload of a revolver.

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Psalm 27:2

I pretty much stopped reading anything "gun writers" cranked out after Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan retired but I suspect this kid will write anything that will get his article more clicks to boost his pay grade.

I carry a Colt Commander almost every day, When I can't carry JMB's finest I carry a Smith 638 loaded with Buffalo Bore standard pressure LHPSWC ammo with a couple of Speed Strips. I practice with it and I'm confident in my ability to use it and in the .38 specials ability to defend me if needed.

I've got the little Smith on me right now and I don't feel undergunned in the slightest.

Whats not to like about snubbie sights? They are about as foolproof as they come. Dont really agree with the snub being an experts only gun either. Put granma cross the room with a couple of cylinders of wadcutters and watch her fill a cereal box with all of em. Slip the high velocity stuff in and give the pistol back to her and tell her take no prisoners.

I'm not a big fan of YouTube and I'm unfamiliar with this kid. I don't know if he writes for himself or some Internet magazine. Regardless, a lot of guys that write Internet stuff are paid nothing, but they need no experience or credentials. That's seldom the case in the paper publishing business, despite what many of us may think of that media.

Total agreement with your assessment. I find the juice to be much higher per squeeze with a slightly less concealable Glock 26 than a 442. However, concealment sometimes becomes a greater concern than sheer shoot-ability of the Glock, it is a J Frame. The beauty is we can make those trade offs.

In my 33 years, I was hit with a 22, and a 38.
Both hurt. Any body knocks any rounds, needs to ponder taking said round by the pointy end.

Food for thought.

I agree a J-frame is for an experienced shooter. Some grannies don't have the hand strength to pull a DA trigger, or to deal with recoil, even with wadcutters. I think it would be an awful trick to change ammo on grannie. I think you should practice with the ammo you carry. There are a lot less recoiling guns/rounds than .38 wadcutters. I'd rather my grannie have a .22 she can shoot rather than a .38 she can't.

During my 27 years with the NYPD I have been blessed to know, train with and learn from some of the best real world experienced combat revolver shooters.

Two of which are Jim Cirillo and Bill Allard (may they both rest in peace).

When I look back at the time I spent with them and what they both imparted on me I know I was lucky to have that opportunity.

What I can say about Mr. Grant and his opinion editorial is that it establishes he has ZERO real life experience, is not willing to work at trying or is simply not able to become proficient and he has the all too typical “it can’t be my fault” attitude.

Long story short #SPAM

This is why I always recommend that someone thinking about either returning to a snub (after some years away from using one), or trying a snub for the first time, invest some time, money and effort into figuring out the risk/benefit of using them for other than range/leisure plinking.

First time revolver shooters are probably better off starting (and staying?) with a medium-frame 6-shot .38SPL, whether 2"-4".

Even experienced revolver shooters still need to make sure they can acclimate their skills to meet the higher demands of the diminutive 5-shot snubs, whether using the 20oz all-steel models, but particularly if thinking about the light Airweights and even lighter Sc/Ti models.

I've watched my fair share of folks (cops and private shooters alike) on a qual range who simply could not run a snub revolver controllably, quickly and especially accurately enough to make it a practical choice for a dedicated defensive weapon.

Then, there's the folks who can't seem to help but think they need (and will have time) to thumb-cock a traditional revolver into single action ... at 3yds ... for each shot.

Reloading? When it reaches the point that you're likely going to need a minute hand on your watch to measure your technique, you're probably on the way to pushing it to make reloading a moot point.

Sometimes "handy" & "practical" may turn out to be a lot farther apart than someone might assume. TANSTAAFL.

Now, in light of this thread topic, I've got to serve as chauffeur for my wife to go and help her pastor and another person set up and run an online service tonight. Considering I'll have to wait outside in the SUV in the parking lot, and the early hot temperatures we're seeing, I won't be belting on and covering up one of my 9's, .40's or .45's. Instead, I'll be pocket-holstering one of my .357MAG J-frames ... and reading my Kindle. Handy and practical ... for me.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Exactly why popcorn was invented.

I'll still check out trainers who are also writers, or trainers who are trying to become writers, but that's a lingering habit from my own instructor time.

Not all instructors ever need to become writers (or may wish to), but some are forced into it if they have to learn to write effective lesson plans. Especially if they realize that their professional writing may have to be examined, explained and justified in court at some point down the line.

I've been asked by one respected and prominent trainer/writer why I'm NOT writing for publication at this point, and my only answer was ... laziness? Up until now I've only had to write for official reports/court and professional training purposes (in-house for my agency, and then for a state level committee that provided training to outside agencies).

Besides, I rather thought the gun/tactics training market was pretty well saturated by writers, with more appearing all the time. So, now I merely offer some thoughts in both public and private forums.My opinions are worth the cost, which is nothing.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

It is safe to say I am extremely jealous of the opportunity for that first hand wisdom. I hope you are paying it forward.

Nothing new here, simply a rehash on a popular topic: Snubs are too limited on capacity, and the .38 Spl. is under-powered. He starts by saying NEVER to use a .38 Spl snub, then ends with "..... a .38 snub nose is a dangerously effective tool when employed correctly." So, what's the point?
For those of us not out looking for a fight or expecting to hold off the Red Army, I find my 649 quite a comfort to carry. It is for self-defense in a sticky close-quarter situation. Really, it's quite adequate, and with practice and a good proficiency, a .38 Spl. snub is an extraordinarily deadly weapon.
If you are carrying for something other than self-defense in a sticky close-quarter situation, it may not be suitable.

It’s easier to teach someone to shoot a J frame than a semi auto.

At self defense distance a J frame is plenty. Try telling a few generations of folks that it isn’t.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

While the 38 special is not the most powerful round it is still very deadly. Just ask Lee Harvey Oswald.

At bare minimum you need to carry an M16 converted to belt feed with at least 200 of ammo....
Actually, I carry a 642 and no reload.

Well, I don't want to just brush the kid off...but, I will.
Like a lot of us, I've been shooting revolvers since before his parents were probably out of high school. Muscle memory has a huge part of how well anyone can manage any actions governed by physical dexterity. Reloads, trigger control, etc are learned skills.

Accuracy? Ha! A good snubbie is effective out to at least 50 yds, especially if it has SA-DA capability.

The kid is part of a generation that has been overindulged in regard to the "value" of their opinions than any previous generation. It's a major problem with our education system. They get to express their opinions (usually uninformed at best) and have that count in leau of facts.

Besides, doesn't this kid know how many KAOS agents Maxwell Smart Secret Agent 86 shot with his various S&W snubbies?

To be fair, he probably hit them by accident or was "helped" by 99.

I agree with the brush-off. As a matter of fact I somehow felt he was brushing me off with the all too common attitude of today.
As for Maxwell, he was good, but I much more enjoyed Agent 99.
And as Max one time said to 99.... "You make three 33's, 99."

The only point I would agree with in the article is that J frames in general are harder to shoot well than their larger counterparts. The rest of his article is based on assumptions, and perhaps his own shortcomings. I will say this if you are only going to practice a few times a year no hand gun will likely be adequate. I have a backyard range set up with markers from 10 yards to 50 in 10 yard increments. I try to at least shoot 50 rounds a week through something. It may only be a lowly K22 I shoot a golf balls makes it more interesting for me, and won't have to guess if I hit it or not. This also causes the target to move, and when it does I'm tracking it to shoot again when it lands. I have carried both a Model 36, and a Ruger LCP for years now. I practice regularly with both. I am 5'6" and 150lbs so carrying a larger gun concealed is a problem for me. The 38spl has been around since 1899, and shows no sign of going anywhere. I just bet the J frame sized guns have piled up a pretty tall body count. There is a certain guy named Jerry I just bet could shoot a model 36 faster than you could see. Training is the key no matter what you choose to carry, if its a lowly 22 then practice until you can shoot the eyes out of the silhouette target. Ok that's my 2 cents worth.

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Randy

Fellows should fight for their life with their bare hands & feet before they run down anyone's weapon system.
There. I said it.
Anyone who has fought for their life knows what I'm sayin'.

Consider most carry a specific gun that is comfy for them, not because it is the best tool to defend themselves. Many that carry small 5 shots rarely shoot them but they fit nicely in a pocket. Is 5 enough, sure, until its not. I never say never but I tend to lean toward what I shoot every weekend.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

It's a Belly gun, for Bad Breath range.
Steve W

I disagree, it has far more potential than that. In skilled hands of course but isn't that true of all firearms? An unskilled person will miss with a target pistol beyond "bad breath range".

Another view on the subject: Shooting Illustrated | Snubnose Revolvers: Still Meeting Defensive Needs

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Only a cold warrior

The internet and a cheap video camera has made a lot of people who know nothing into "experts". Sadly, people who know very little believe them and then proclaim the person an expert. And the myth continues.

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183rd FBINA

No matter how much skill, failures to stop are pretty common with any caliber, much less 38sp snub loads. So sure, it may be just fine, until its not. There are far too many instances of attackers taking multiple good hits & staying in the fight.
If its an unarmed mugger, you are probably fine. If your attacker has a gun or a knife knife in close, yeah not worth me rolling those tiny dice. I shoot my snubs just fine, better than most will shoot their compact 9, but 5rds goes really fast in a fight & no reload will save you.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Kind of surprised any knowledgeable publisher would put this article in print.
Jim

Here’s what I know: My .38 saved me three times during my career, and I had to reload under fire during one fight. As to the assertion that snubs are not accurate, or recoil too much, one of my fights was w/a Colt DS (I had to reload this one under fire) and it did the job. Would I have done better w/an auto loader, who knows. Modern semi autos make sense for LE & the military, but those who no longer go in harm‘s way should carry what works best for them.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

With practice it’s acceptable accurate. I’m having no trouble getting 100% hits rapid fire with +p ammo @ 7 yds. Slower with more concentration I’m still good at 15yds

Years back (late 70s) a good friend (LEO and a long time member of he Governors 20) was shooting his model 60 at the 50 yard line.

His target look as good or better than many of the shooters that were using bigger & longer barreled guns.

Of course my friend was a super serious shooter, armorer and instructor for his 100 man town force. He devoted lots of time to his shooting and I would say he was a natural shooter and was good with rifles and shotguns also.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

Well, it's a free country...so far.

Most of the points I might have made have been made, so I'll stick with my current mantra:

Life is too short to spend time online arguing politics (or guns) with people you don't know.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I helped teach a CCW class several years ago. We had "that guy" in class who knew everything about anything involving firearms and defensive shooting. He said a snub gun was only accurate to belly button distance. If someone was shooting at him with a snub from 100 yards he'd stand there all day and let them shoot at him. No way anyone could hit anything at 100. When it was time to do some shooting we went to 100 yard line. Targets were B27 silhouettes. I was carrying my S&W 49 loaded with W-W 158 LSWCHP+Ps. 2 handed standing I fired 5 rounds and we went down range to check the target. 5 holes in the body. "Know it all" claimed the holes were already in the target or it was just luck. So I let him hang a fresh target. Back to 100 yards, 5 more rds, 5 more body hits. At least it shut him up so we could get thru the shooting phase of class.
It's the basics. Sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze. Same whether 10 yards or 100 yards, handgun or rifle. And Fastbolt already mentioned about the thinner sights on the older S&Ws. Thinner front sight can be an advantage.
Too bad I didn't have a cheap camera back then or know anything about how to post video on the internet. Maybe I could have been an "expert" and write internet stories too.

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183rd FBINA

If I am at a distance that I can not hit a chest size target regularly, than I am far enough away to get away from the danger. I used to carry a 6 Shot Colt Detective Special in 2" then moved to an S&W Model 36 and then a 60, both in 2". Then I wanted something flatter and moved to a Walther PPK/s. But in over 10 years having concealed carry all the time and never having to have to clear leather, I stopped carrying altogether.

Today, with all the restrictions where and when you can't carry, it is not worth the aggravation to me to carry, but a 2" .38 revolver with upside down loaded 148 grain Full Hollow Base Wad Cutters are in each of my homes.

Bob

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Sag Harbor & Manhattan, N.Y.

Excellent point

For me, I want a "Cowboy pistol" that I can snap shoot a rider out of the saddle at 100 yards on every shot.
They are greased lightning out of leather and can shoot at least 200 times without having to reload.
Oh, and when you shoot them they don't recoil.

All that said, mine is either a 2" Model 60 no dash, or a 2" Model 10 no dash.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

I grew up shooting revolvers from my grandfathers H&R 22 at 8 yrs old forward. I started carrying a revolver at age 18 and have almost every day since. I'm 68 so a little more than 50 years. I carried a J frame as a BUG or primary or both since I was 21. I have taught lots of LEOs and civilians to shoot. Grant is correct a snub is not a beginner's gun AND it takes a lot of practice to master. Other than those 2 points, I would add:

A 3" barrel is much easier to shoot well than a 2". There's a lot to be said for the 32 rather than the 38 but shoot the larger of the 32, 38, 357, or 44 you can shoot very well and lets you conceal it within your lifestyle. NEVER trust an autoloader unless you carry a revolver as a BUG. I have seen way too much go wrong with autoloaders. Just my rules of survival from the school of hard knocks. Ignore at your own risk. Whatever you do, if you carry, you owe it to yourself and the innocent folks down range from the bad guy to PRACTICE.

Good luck in these troubled times and God bless you and yours.

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

Just skimmed through it and read enough to know the guy talks a big story but is one that probably is not much of a do'er. Anyone that carries a J-frame and does not shoot it on a regular basis, might agree with him. While I have never seen a 38 gunshot wound in person, I do know that I would not want to get hit with one! When even my lite-weight 148HBWC loads ding and swing an 8" circle of 3/8" steel at 20-50 yards, I know I would not want to be standing on the wrong side.

I think I will stick to reading Massad Ayoob and his years of actual field experience.

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"Tastes just like chicken"

I never looked forward to practicing with my J frame .38. Was never able to shoot it well and hated the recoil. Consequently I sold it and got a Ruger Compact 9mm. It has reasonable power, 10+1 and much easier to shoot well. Although I find the J's cool looking, they just don't work for me.

An attack is an attack, LEO or ccw. Limiting ones self seems foolish in either case. I am sure in the events you speak of your attacker was armed sim to you, not out gunning you with a high cap pistol??

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO