I love all the fantasy scenarios. You have more of a chance of dying on the way to the range than you do experiencing an active shooter or terrorist or gang of thugs.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson

Follow Rule #1 and don't worry about all the noise. Carry a pocket 380? Good on you. Carry a j frame? Good on you. carry a 17 rounder with 3 reloads? Good on you.

Each of the scenarios I described earlier has occurred not once, but several times. In the case of (1), the most likely by far, just ask anyone who works in a cell phone store.

Life is full of choices. If I worked in a cell phone store and I couldn't be armed. I wouldn't work there. Of course my carry choices would be different. It's all common sense. That is what most of these arguments lack.


I have fired shots in self defense against armed assailants. I utterly don't agree with your stance, but I respect it and I am not going to espouse how I am right and you are wrong. Carry what you want. My j frame is more than enough for me, and I actually lived it. You want to carry more, that is your right, choice, and decision. More power too you.


I have way too much fun in life and more important things to do than worry about active shooters and terrorists and kit up like i am on gang patrol in south central. I lived in war zones full of them for two years and I am alive. I am not going to run around paranoid in my own country. J frame lifestyle. Nobody is going to change my mind with fantasy scenarios that happened a couple times in a country that has multi millions of people.

Everyone talks about reloads and facing 3 armed opponents etc etc

I carry a snub nose revolver often. I also sometimes carry a Glock 19 or 43. The way I see it, no matter what you are carrying, if you need to reload or are facing multiple armed people, if they are bent on doing more than just taking your money and are determined to shoot you if necessary, you will lose that fight. You pull a gun and get lucky enough to shoot the first guy, the second or third will be shooting you. You need to reload, magazine or loader/strip, you’re not in a good spot.

On the flip side, if the “armed robbers” are not determined to do anything than find a soft target or, around here is common, carrying air soft guns to scare you into compliance, they will be running at the sight of a gun or resistance.

Carry what you want. All I know is I LIKE shooting my snubs more than my semi autos, so they get shot more and I feel I M better with them. That gives me an advantage.

The 38 I have been carried for many many years by police . I have autos they can jam even good ones uncle once told me revolver never jam so was my first gun I have many autos but my 38 is my go to gun at the house .

Maybe I should just wear an oversized sport coat and carry this:


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

When our Sheriff's Office changed from model K revolvers to model 645 pistols, I sold many revolvers to buy .45 pistols. Last year I decided to replace my J & K frame revolvers. I bought short barrel models and put a fixed rear sight on the K frame 2.75" barrel. Either of these will shoot .357 magnum rounds, or .38+p. I would feel comfortable carrying either, but I have been carrying my CS 45 for over 20+ years and like it, so I plan on continuing it. A snub nose revolver with .38 special round has put many an evil person in the ground.

I like my S&W 637 38Spl. The 38Spl is the best defensive
round there is, the TKO is outstanding.

My S&W 637 has easy concealment, Toy Gun Weight, Safe,
Easy to use, SA/DA usage for when you get jumped out of no
where, and Lead Wadcutters destroys all it contacts and a
benefit of Lead it doesn't ricochet.

I carry that little 637 Fly Fishing all the time. From my Fly
Fishing Vest, it has the Element of Surprise. The probability of
encountering a Terrorist/Active Killer is very slim too.

I have no Scenarios like the Masters above. Like Indiana Jones
when the time comes, things will be happen quite differently
then is imagined and practiced for. Sometime I'll tell you about
Bosnia and Kosovo.

I, do, must say, I should practice more with it, but just hate to.
Probably just a familiarization will do. I do enough shooting
with my S&Ws; 625, 629, 696, 686, and 617s, Rifles, and
Shotguns I'm good for now.

Attached Images

WIN_20200319_12_08_27_Pro.jpg (86.3 KB, 36 views)

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SD social distanc'n since 1889

First, he identified a Centennial revolver as "Hammerless" - shows ignorance, Second, while some of his points have some validity, they are not absolute. I would guess that more people have been shot and killed with a .38 in the last 100 years or so than any other pistol round.
Last, I have carried a 5 shot J frame for back up and off duty and daily carry since retirement for better than 40 years. I was involved in one LE shooting with a .45 ACP+P and I can tell you that there was no expansion and while the end result was good they were less than impressive. No handgun round is a death ray that's why my primary home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun.

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Support your Police, & NRA

It's refreshing to see an excellent post. No obsessive armchair tactical textbook gunfighting theory, just experience and good sense.

False. My Smith 686 jammed. My M&P hasn't, with many more rounds through it.

I know an HPD officer. His partner escorted a drunk out of a bar. At the doorway, the drunk produced and swung a knife. Partner's Smith revolver jammed. Our officer pulled his Colt 1911, ended the problem with 230 fmj.

It can happen.

My wife has gone to a full-sized 357 as her long-carried M49 doesn't work well with her arthritic hands. The bigger revolver requires a different grip altogether, one she can more easily manage while pulling a trigger.

What ammo, if you don't mind my asking?

I lead a rather sheltered life and have no idea who this guy is so the question I have to ask is ...... Why should I care what he has to say ?
How many shootouts does he have to his credit ? How many times has he shot an attacker and failed to stop them with a snub .38 ? How many has he stopped with whatever weapon he is suggesting as a replacement for the .38 snub ? Being a writer gives him no weight with me , I can write an article stating that the .44 Magnum is not effective as a defense weapon . Does not make it true . I didn't bother to read what he had to say , got more important things to do like sorting some pocket lint .

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Meet the most decorated detective in NYPD history

This is a guy I'd pay attention to . Jim Cirillo would be another .

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I was reminded of Wiley Clapps articles on why the 44 Special sucked and needed to be obsolete. I believe this follows the thoughts that any readership is good press.

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Front sight and squeeze

Like I posted in Post #21 "Just because he is a gun writer does not give him any bonafides.........."

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I'm all about a snub nose Specials....And using enough gun

.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

No one yet has mentioned the thousands of us who watched a conflict between L. H. Oswald and Jack Ruby. It would be difficult to explain to my nine year old self how a 38 wasn't enough gun.

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Front sight and squeeze

Sorry. won't happen. I've shot single action for 50+ years. Too old to learn new tricks. So, by your thinking a single action only revolver is not suitable home defense or any other self defense scenario. Just might be more than a few Ruger fans that would dispute that.

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Super Snooper

I started on SA and still carry one pretty regular so I second those last two statements .

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

It's almost impossible to reload a double-action revolver in a short-range shootout. Has anybody ever done it?

How much harder to reload a single action!

There you are, poking out the empties one by one, while the Jackboys with their Glock Forties hammer you into the dust.

Nobody's too old to park that single action revolver, and get into a Glock, M&P, P226, VP9, or other modern handgun eminently suited to save your life.

"Ruger Fans" might indeed dispute this now, but you won't find any alive after a gunfight to do any disputin'. They'll be at the morgue.


N.B. to Mtgianni: There was no "conflict" between Oswald and Jack Ruby. Ruby shot an unarmed Oswald restrained by police. I have the autopsy report. The 158 grain bullet turned right and downward and perforated many vital organs.

So, how many gunfights and shootouts have you been in with your wonder 9 or 40? Member of the "Spray & Pray" Club??
I'll save my life by making smart decisions and situation awareness, and not going gangsta.

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Super Snooper

Complete nonsense. Find another line of work, like writing fiction. Oh, that's what you WERE doing. BALONEY!

Author definately swimming upstream with this article. I'm quite sure
that a great majority of Law enforcement, and trained concealed carriers,
many of them obviously smarter than this so called gun writer (?) author,
prefer the snub nosed revolver, and .38 Spl. is the favorite caliber.
But he knows how to get attention: Controversy!

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In Omnia Paratus

In his day I would not discount Thell Reed with a single action as his protection piece. Also Bob Mundin, both of those people could do both a very accurate unload (shoot) and do a rapid reload on a single action revolver.

I for one would not say they would be easy pickings when push came to shove!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

Oh to be exceptional just to survive. There are modern day cowboy action shooters that are as good. I would think only someone who fires several thousand rounds a year Inna competitive setting would be any good at all with those guns. Just hitting things in general not reloading and such.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Has the threat level really changed? That notion is advanced a lot on firearms forums, but just how true is it?

Does Walter Mitty ever appear firearms forum posts?

Just to be totally unambiguous about it, I think yes and no .

If you're an active or retired LEO, it looks to me like the threat has increased a lot. If I was in that circumstance, I'd want to carry big guns with lots of big boolits.

For a civilian self defender, unless you have some special circumstance like needing to carry lots of cash or you're cheating with some guys wife, I don't think the threat level has really increased. A .38 snub will work just fine. JMO.

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Vegan by proxy.

You’re not going to have much lucky trying to reload ANY firearm in a short range shootout. You don’t have to shoot first and shoot fastest. You have to make a hit first.

People think that just because they’re carrying a semiauto their reloads are faster than a revolver. But many people don’t practice reloads (at least quickly). I make it a point when I’m doing my qualifications with my revolver to get my reload done and get the next shot off quicker than the semiauto guys.

But I still don’t think you would get the chance for a reload in a self defense shooting (civilian, not law enforcement).

I largely agree with the article. J Frame revolvers for CCW, barring some physical handicap, are, if not obsolete, obsolescent at best. The reasons as outlined above by many other posters.

That said the only thing I will add is, for the same volume of practice, the same shooter will achieve competence and maintain confidence much quicker and more easily with a carry sized Glock like the 43x than they would with a J frame revolver. Yes you can shoot J Frames well, but there is no denying that they are difficult firearms to shoot well, slow to reload compared to a magazine change, and at a large capacity disadvantage.

Carrying a J frame today can only be a handicap unless its the only thing you can carry. The decision is ultimately up to the user though. What people choose to do has no effect on my life, plus then we'd have nothing to argue about

Because there's nothing like a good argument to pass the time during Corona quarantine, I'm going to disagree.

I'm all about semi's, but I think a J-Frame or an LCR with .38 wadcutters are ideal tools for an inexperienced shooter that is just looking to defend themselves and is only going to practice occasionally.

There's just not much to go wrong with a snub. At typical self defense ranges, they are natural pointers. They're pretty much point and shoot. Easy to load. Easy to clear. Nice long trigger pull. For inexperienced shooters, there's too much to go wrong with a semi.

Just my 2 cents.

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Vegan by proxy.

A snub revolver is vastly inferior to a high capacity autoloader in the context that snub detractors on gun forums often frame the debate, but from my perspective, the context is wrong.

All due respect to guys like Jim Cirillo, but what LEO’s do or don’t use, doesn’t really matter much to me. Civilians just don’t get into shoot-outs that have any resemblance to the ones cops are involved very often. There might have been a couple of incidents, but we’re talking winning the powerball and getting struck by lightning on the same day odds. I just don’t worry about things that improbable.

While the high capacity autoloader is superior to the snub revolver in a ranged firefight, I think the snub is actually the superior weapon in the types of close-quarter incidents I’m most likely to encounter out in public as an armed citizen, but these relatively likely scenarios seem to be overlooked in favor for preparing for events that while possible, are so improbable that they border on being considered fantasy. It makes much more sense to me to spend my training time and choose weapons based on what’s realistically probable.

Same ammo - 158 grain LSWCHP +P 38 spec. The recoil is not her issue; closing her hand quickly and predictably on the J-frame is the problem. She shoots the M66 better anyway.

First off, I previously said that I don't shoot a J frame well. I shoot a 2 1/2 in K frame. I don't have 50 years to learn/adjust to shooting a semi-auto.
Sticking with the one that brought me to the dance.

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Super Snooper

7-8 years ago one of our Deputy Sheriffs was investigating a reported pot growing operation. The grower opened fire with an "assault" rifle at a range of around 75 yds striking the Deputy two or three times. The Deputy returned fire with his S&W M&P and if he did not kill, he disabled his attacker. The pistol was not the ideal choice to return fire but he made it work. The thing that still irritates me is I contacted the local S&W rep, sent him the story and said "You should make the Deputy the poster boy for S&W M&P pistols while he is recovering". I could picture the effectiveness of this Deputy sitting at the S&W booth telling how the M&P saved his life, but the S&W rep said he didn't think the idea was worth pursuing. Guess that is why I'm not a salesman.

Hello. Well I have tried to carry several guns but I found that a 2 inch snubby Smith model 649 in .38 special in a pocket holster is the ideal CCW. This is a personal choice and I understand that someone else would be comfortable with a Ruger LCP or something similiar but I like the comfort and safety of this smith. I have read the reports of accidental discharges with the striker fired pistols and I would not be comfortable with carrying one unless it had the manual safety. I do have a Sig p320 with red dot but I would never try to carry it concealed. I rented the smith and wesson EZ 9mm at a local range but I found that it was too large for pocket carry. Just my $.02.

Carried a Model 37 for years as a back up are concealed. I now carry a Shield 2.0. I shoot the Shield much better than I did the 37. Don't feel a bit better armed than I did with the 37. It's me not the gun that makes the Shield hit better. Something in my grip and trigger pull. But the gun is a tool and it is only as good as the operator. My 37 will be close by in the house always. This is my opinion.

..."but you can't kill a Grizzly with a 22 !" ...

...right?...

...one to the head...and it was dead...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Don't like J-Frames or pocket carry for the primary, but it's a Model 649 in a pocket on the infrequent occasions I feel the need for a backup..

The single action is great. Very accurate and reliable. Right up until your thumb gets broken or shot off or the support side arm gets shot or broken. Try reloading with just one operational hand. Try clearing a malfunction with one hand.

Not so whiz bang now are you? How well do you shoot left handed unsupported? Ever practice firing with the middle finger instead of the index? What's your plan for a reload? What about a dumped speed loader? Do you consider placing speedloaders in both front pockets? Can you reach across your body and access the undrawn weapon? How about cross body speedloaders? Do you ever practice clearing brass "from under the star"? Do you ever practice loading, indexing and firing one round only? How about loading and firing the gun with one hand only? How would you make a one handed reload?

Now I'm pretty good with a revolver and at no disadvantage with a snubnose, but I will not choose to use either single action mode nor a single action revolver for the business of defense. There are just too many negative aspects.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Ziggy, I'm not clear on what the difference is between retired-LEO, and everybody else.

-And I am not retired.

But I soon hope to be.

Once I am... what's the difference, as postulated here?

I have my opinion.

The most important difference is experience, and training, in that order.

IMO, the biggest difference between cop and non-cop, that I read over and over online, is the understanding of when not to shoot.

If one is still asking, "If "X" happens, can I shoot..." then one was not a cop.

There is a difference between cop and not-a-cop in decision making, but the weapon in hand isn't it.

Nor is active or retired status. Nor is the threat profile.

I'd bet that, in the USA, more retired cops are carrying 2" .38s than any other type. But it's not because they don't know what they're doing, or because anything is different.

I'd be interested to hear a different view, because it might affect my own decision making.

So if we're using a revolver we're up-the-creek if our thumb gets shot off, but we're still whiz-bang if we use an automatic?

Is that how it works?

After reading the article from that Youtube "expert" I feel totally inadequate. So I've ordered one of these in .50 cal., and I'm having a pocket holster made for it. Range reports and photos of holster to follow.

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John

Reading carefully you see I said I would not use single action mode and a single action revolver for defense. I happen to carry a 360 M&P with CT grips. You may well be whiz bang carrying an "automatic". My intention was to highlight many of the issues that are a show stopper for single actions and the lack of preparation of a certain individual who has 50 years of experience thumb cocking revolvers. With the semi auto pistol there is a definite volume of remedial action procedures one can go through to return the weapon to working order with one hand. These have mostly been lost in the case of the Revolver.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

There's no doubt many retired LEO's have way more street experience with criminals. Not all, but a lot. Especially larger city cops, U.S. Marshals, and state patrol troopers. Working with criminals is what they did for a living. Maybe not so much the guy that spent his entire career in a 500 person town, but that's a separate point.

Like I mentioned in my post you quoted, IMO the threat level is higher for retired LEO's vs a plain old civilian permit holder. The possibility there are guys you arrested, that went to jail/prison, and when they get out they may decide they have a score to settle. That's why if I was in that position, I'd want a "bigger gun with lots of big boolets."

BTW, didn't just make the extra threat thing up. Have heard it from more than one of the retired cops that were teaching training classes I've taken. Also just a sample of one, but knew a city cop that had a guy he arrested come after his kid.

Most civilians don't get that as part of their retirement package.

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Vegan by proxy.

Extensive shooting use of revolvers for some 45 years now has taught me that a volume of remedial action never was required anyway in order to return the revolvers to working order for they always worked for me. I use double-action revolvers for serious social purposes. The single-action revolvers on hand here are for collecting and for fun.

I shoot automatics too. Tap-rack-bang and all the other volume of remedial action represents a really crummy way to have to run an automatic but it all sounds so great, so simple and foolproof in forum posts.

The derisively placed quotation marks around the word "automatic" are duly noted, indicating a certain condescending disapproval.





The pistols have been referred to as "automatics" since 1900 and the term remains in use today.

When I was processing into the FBI one of the agents in the local office was closing in on 60, though the mandatory retirement age was (and still is) 57. A guy he had locked up 20 years before got out and his first order of business was to burn down the agent’s house. No loss of life, but even with insurance it was a financial blow, and the agent was allowed to stay on the job past mandatory to help him recover. He said he barely remembered the bad guy. As the saying goes: The tree remembers what the axe forgets.

That story really stuck with me, and I’ve always worried more about somebody burning down my house than just shooting me at a stoplight.

I try not to stress over it. I was the case agent in probably 400 cases that resulted in somebody going to the federal pen. Then there are the many hundreds of fugitive arrests where all I did was locate and arrest folks on other people’s warrants. On top of that there are an ungodly number of people with whom I sat in small rooms and accused of awful things who were never charged. I’m sure 99.9999999 percent couldn’t pick me out of a lineup, but it only takes one to burn my damn house down.

That said, I’m fine with a .38 Colt Agent and no reload. I’ll sort it out with that, but I totally understand how others might feel the need for a different set up.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Extensive experience and never found any type of malfunction that could shut a revolver down? After 45 years? I found about kinetic bullet pulling jamming a cylinder's rotation and getting an empty casing hard seated very early in my experience with revolvers. Having knowledge of the malfunction and some idea of the remedial action prevents the revolver from becoming a paper weight. A volume of remedial action refers to a series of known procedures not necessarily a great many. I believe that this has been mostly lost for the revolvers. Do you carry a pen that can fit in your cylinder throats? How about a knife with a sturdy clip point blade? Two things that can help clear a shell caught under the extractor quickly or push a projectile that got pulled by recoil back into the cylinder.

I will cede you the "automatic" as used by Colt. Most follow on with "clip" soon thereafter the utterance of "automatic". No condescension on that.

Nowhere did I use tap, rack and bang. Representation of a crummy way to run something may be unsavory to forum experts, but a determined user of a firearm that goes through the remedial actions during a malfunction is a survivor. Yes the situation may eventually overwhelm the user of the malfunctioning firearm, but they have a higher probability of survival if they know what to do and attempt to correct the problem instantly.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

"Extensive experience and never found any type of malfunction that could shut a revolver down?"

Of course anything that we post on firearms forums must by nature be anecdotal and taken with a grain of salt for there is little that may be proven by individuals posting their personal experiences.

Livin' Th' Dream

Anyhoo ... l grew up in a rural environment with unlimited shooting opportunities on several different family owned rural properties so shoot I did and shoot I still do. We still own the largest of those properties and I regularly shoot and hunt there yet. As an adult I've always belonged to private gun clubs, belong to a local gun club at present with a range less than three minutes from my driveway. I grew up around handguns and have been shooting my own since the mid-1970s: plinking, range practice (both bad and good habits and technique), formal competition, hunting afield, and enjoying hand load development for them.

Actually I admire and enjoy rifles best of all.

In the years that I've used revolvers, I've experienced difficulties with high primers on an occasion back in my early days of hand loading in the mid-1970s, something easily remedied by attention to primer seating. Fixed.

Also, back in early hand loading days I deliberately set out to experimentally see how little crimp I could get by with in hand loading .38 Special ammunition, with predictable results. In this instance the simple expedient of a thumb pressing the bullets back into the fronts of the chambers fixed the problem and I subsequently adjusted the crimp accordingly. Fixed.

A third occasion found me experimentally hand loading "performance" ammunition for the .32-20 in a 1907 vintage Smith & Wesson K-Frame Hand Ejector using a very heavy charge of IMR 4227. This nuclear powered handload caused the tapered and slightly bottlenecked .32-20 cases to back out and tie up the cylinder rendering the revolver inoperable and difficult to open. That handload was scrapped and the revolver was returned to service, none the worse for the wear ... by all outward appearances. Fixed.

I was a noob, young and dumb back then, but even then I'd have never employed any of those "experimental" hand loads for any serious revolver use.

Dud rounds are an annoyance in either revolver or automatic. An expedient pull of the trigger fixes the dud round in the double-action revolver in an emergency.

A bullet stuck in a barrel during an emergency need for a handgun pretty well means one is having a bad day with either revolver or automatic.

Otherwise, I could contrive a number of scenarios which would tie up either a revolver or an automatic where neither you nor I could sort it out in an emergency situation. Them's the breaks.

Other than those three experiences mentioned above which I caused I've had no further issues with revolvers in decades of heavy shooting use and I'm still regularly shooting some of the same revolvers I was shooting 40 years ago. I love automatics, especially 1911 guns, but cannot attest to the same track record of revolver reliability with many of the automatics I've had. Some have been flawless in their reliability, but for me there's niggling doubt about the breed.

To bring this tortured pontification back around to the topic at hand, I would choose a snub Smith & Wesson or Colt revolver over any model of compact automatic ever made by any manufacturer.

That's just me.

Revolvers, particularly Smith & Wesson revolvers is why I'm a member of the Forum.