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  #51  
Old 05-25-2020, 04:33 PM
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Jim Cirillo wrote that he had failures to stop with everything including buck and slugs.
Wish this was over in the shotgun resurgence thread... all the more reason to leave the bird shot to the bird hunting.
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  #52  
Old 05-25-2020, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 7shooter View Post
Jim Cirillo wrote that he had failures to stop with everything including buck and slugs.
Wish this was over in the shotgun resurgence thread... all the more reason to leave the bird shot to the bird hunting.
Well said gents. Shot placement trumps caliber.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:05 PM
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I can't see myself concerned about drywall penetration when my life or the life of my loved ones depends on my marksmanship.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:15 PM
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Take an AR15 loaded with 5.56 ammo with 55 grain FMJ's with you to test as well inside of 20 yards. Curious as to what your results will be on that ...
I've done this, it's like the Energizer bunny-it keeps on going, and going and .......... bullet does stay intact and stable as proved by holes in targets beyond. If you want to cause that bullet to fragment outside of tissue, you need 1/4 in steel plate. BTW, the bullet does create a substantial hole in the plate and what exits the plate is molten steel and fragments capable of causing serious injury.

Someone above mentioned frangible/pre-fragmented bullets earlier. Sheetrock doesn't stop them. In the case of Glasers, I know of one ND (didn't double check prior to dry fire) that passed through the wall and into the duplex on the other side. No injuries-no one home, but don't recall where it ended up.

I tried the Barnes RRLP and even on angles it stayed intact-destabilized and tumbled, but intact. I expect a 55 gr bullet going sideways at ~2900 f/s is still potentially lethal. Bullet really intended for use on reactive steel targets at close range.

Last edited by WR Moore; 05-26-2020 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vt_shooter View Post
If you hit someone center-of-mass with a load of number 6 shot from a 12 ga., and were close enough that the pattern was under, say, 4 inches, I doubt that guy is going anywhere. But if the walls you're worried about are far enough away that the pattern would open up to say 8 inches or more before the shot hit it, I suspect it would't be deadly on the other side. Might still be a problem, but I'd take that over say a 9mm or a .223 going through the wall.
In a riot choke, shot soreads about 1" per yard. So across a decent size room, 6-7" spread. The shot isnt heavy enough to penetrate much beyond surface of meat after just 4 layers of denim. If I have to shoot someone, it is serious enough to win the fight & #4 buck will do just fine.
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  #56  
Old 05-31-2020, 02:13 AM
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I think we need some more jello tests, maybe add some drywall just to make it interesting.

We could always do what the US Army did back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, and compare all our ammo by shooting live goats, sheet, or pigs. No reason we couldn't add some drywall just to make it interesting. Don't let the local PETA folks hear about what we're doing; they might get all tense and upset.

Just thinking about it and realized that I kind of like my drywall. Please try not to shoot it, even if your jello block is on the other side.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:48 AM
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I'm going too get tense and upset about shooting jello because I like it especially with fruit in it. I have never been attacked or threatened in any way by jello and I don't see any logical reason to shoot it. Larry
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:58 AM
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I'm going too get tense and upset about shooting jello because I like it especially with fruit in it. I have never been attacked or threatened in any way by jello and I don't see any logical reason to shoot it. Larry
Use .45 ACP. It'll plow right thru the grapefruit wedges. It won't deflect like little 9mm bullets.
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  #59  
Old 05-31-2020, 12:04 PM
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This is ever so interesting.

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The problem here is missing what you shoot at. Most discussions about over penetration are really about missing the target.
That is the essence of the problem. The fact remains that there is no target too close or too big that you cannot miss it with a handgun. Except maybe touching distance. And you don't want to be that close to a home invader.

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A load of birdshot (#7 1/2 or 8) will certainly penetrate a sheet or two of drywall at in house distances.
There is no doubt about that. To test that theory I tried an experiment on an old, dilapidated barn. I was dove hunting, the shotgun was loaded with #7.5 or #8 birdshot, there were no birds, and I was bored. So I decided to see what the birdshot could do against corrugated steel barn walls.

I wasn't really close. Ten, maybe twelve feet away. But not much more than that and in a home you could be considerably further away from a bad guy. But, anyway, the birdshot blew a 6" or larger hole right through that steel!

Jim Cirillo was right, of course, there's always that time that you could have a failure to stop. But I still load my HD shotguns with birdshot. There are 9mm and .38 Special handguns at the ready, too.

My personal good news is that I don't have any sleeping loved ones in another room. And in my newly rebuilt-from-the-ground-up home the external walls are all brick so unless a window is penetrated my neighbors won't have flying projectiles coming to them. So if a home invasion occurs I don't need to think about over penetration - because I used all of that brick with that in mind. Thank you Col. Cooper......
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:35 PM
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Missing.

The NYPD went to hollow point pistol ammunition for the expressed purpose of reducing "over penetration." Not for such as "better stopping power."

The irony being that the annual police department reports showed that NY officers missed with

83%

. . . of their shots.
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I just watched a few vids of different types of walls and one with Paul Harrell doing mostly sheet rock.

My interior walls are all sheet rock. 9mm JHP has been my mainstay for defense of any kind. But I just found out that 9mm (and a LOT of other calibers) go through sheet rock almost like it's not there and have almost as much energy on the other side. Buckshot was extremely destructive on over penetration. Somebody said that 5.56 bullets go through the wall and are found sitting on the floor on the other side. THAT is obviously a real load of ****.

Anyway, I'm beginning to change my thinking. Birdshot/small game shot is said not to penetrate enough, but at a range of 5 yards max wouldn't it hit almost like a slug and be stopped by walls?

I think i'll take a couple pieces of sheet rock to the range and test out some shot loads. What's your opinion on this? I haven't exactly changed my mind yet. I love my Golden Sabers and HSTs. But if my thinking turns out to be flat wrong, I could change my strategy. At least have a shotgun backup IF I were to have time to make a choice.
You didn't mention whether you were living in an apartment complex or if you had anyone in any adjacent rooms living with you. If neither, I wouldn't change anything.

If you're concerned about over-penetration there are various frangible handgun rounds on the market or you could go with a slow, heavy round like a .44spl JHP that makes big holes but tends not to over penetrate much.

Last edited by Wood & Steel; 06-01-2020 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:18 AM
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A normal sheetrock covered wall is considered concealment not cover. There may come a time when you will have to take advantage of that fact. There have been many urban fire fights through walls and floors.

Last edited by USMC_1978; 06-01-2020 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
We could always do what the US Army did back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, and compare all our ammo by shooting live goats, sheep, or pigs. No reason we couldn't add some drywall just to make it interesting. Don't let the local PETA folks hear about what we're doing; they might get all tense and upset.
Ray,
We (the Army) did this into the 70 - 90's, that I know if, for Special Forces medical training.
We had to bring the goats into the lab at about 2 AM so as not to be seen by PETA and other such groups.
A Vet would give them anesthesia so they didn't feel any pain. They, usually six, would be strapped to a wood frame
so they could be precisely targeted in the ballistics lab and then shot.

The SF Medic students then had to keep them alive for a given number of days.
Then the Vet would administer a fatal dose in the IV tube. The goats were then used
for more classes on tooth extraction, broken bone splinting, ECT, that didn't need a live animal.

And no, nobody ate Cabrito that night.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:32 PM
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I had a commercial bullet casting business. Naturally I needed to test the product. I tested a lot of loads fresh off the press before I loaded a boat load of them... including bought JHPs. In constructing my test area, I lugged buckets of beach sand and filled paper bags with it, all in a row. Conveniently the paper bags were 6" deep. About all JHP loads, max 357 loads, 41 mag, 45acp would penetrate into the third bag, penetration of 12-18 inches in fine beach sand. Bullets fully expanded. I got the same penetration range in LSWC ammo.
I wouldn't count on something stopping bullets without planned hardening like a steel plate.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:39 PM
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And no, nobody ate Cabrito that night.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I was thinking, why drug them when you could eat them!!!! Oh, well.................
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