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Old 06-15-2020, 11:06 PM
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Default SAA/Blackhawk vs 1911 Condition 2

Was cleaning the old Blackhawk 45 and the Government Model today and wondering, not much difference carrying them as stated in the title.
Having been schooled in fast draw/fanning, while in the Air Force in the last half of the '60s, why or why not carry the SA autos that way if you also carry the old style revolvers?
I do carry Condition 1 with 1911s and P238s.

Thoughts other than the 1911 can be carried safely in Cond1 when nanoseconds are critical?
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Old 06-16-2020, 12:34 AM
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Okay, I don't mean to be critical but I have to ask, who in the world uses fast draw and fanning except in films and for certain competitions and for fun, in the right place with nobody standing anywhere around you?

It's not standard practice for self defense revolvers.

In Cowboy Action Shooting you'll be disqualified if you fan your SAA or replica. In fast draw you shoot wax bullets against the clock with a whiteboard type of backstop mostly to ensure that you actually hit something for your time to qualify in the standings and you only take one shot and you will not be fanning. The standard guns are a little tricked out to make cocking easier but in my experience it's still buzzer/draw/cock/shoot.

That said, that's condition 3. See below.

Seriously, and I'm not being mean, besides every joke I ever heard about the lack of being "military" in the Air Force, see below, what was the Air Force training you for or was it some side game you did on your time off?

Unless you're the second coming of the late lamented and very great Bob Munden or you're Kevin Costner in the movie "Open Range", it's an ordinarily undisputed fact that fanning a SAA is inaccurate, sometimes dangerous, and not good for the gun, not including guns rebuilt for that purpose/game a la' Bob Munden or maybe Jerry Miculek.

To conclude, and I can't prove this, but supposedly in the Old West you generally didn't carry your SAA with the hammer resting on a chambered round (I think one could argue that would be untrue if you KNEW you were headed to a gunfight), you carried the sixth chamber empty with the hammer down on that chamber to avoid an AD if you dropped your gun. Blackhawks started life that way until Ruger put transfer bars in them or the conversion kit and then you eliminated the risk of the hammer resting on the primer. Call me crazy but I was always taught to never carry a SAA or a true replica with six rounds loaded. But let's presume you were taught differently. Okay, fine.

So, that little discussion out of the way, back to your question - are you suggesting that you would carry a 1911 with the hammer down in Condition 2? You're carrying your old timey Blackhawk in Condition 2 and you think you can do the same thing with a 1911 because you think you can fan it faster than dropping the safety on the a 1911 in Condition 1?

You can't. If you try to fan that hammer you'll fail - maybe not at a range where you practice that move for fun but getting it done when the adrenaline hits you that fanning thing will fail. You can tell me that you trained for it - I won't argue about your training. Fanning a 1911 will fail. It would just be easier the cock the hammer. If you only have nano seconds you are in so much trouble I can't imagine the major problems you will encounter trying to fan the hammer.

Offhand, and obviously it's a YMMV thing, but I know a boatload of extremely fast single action revolver shooters and I never heard any of them suggest that they'd ever carry a standard SAA-type weapon with 6 rounds loaded as their EDC. Transfer bar equipped? Sure. So if they wouldn't carry an original SAA or Blackhawk that way they sure wouldn't do it with a 1911.

So that's why it would be incorrect to carry a single action semi-auto in condition 2.

YMMV

No offense meant.


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Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.




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Old 06-16-2020, 02:20 AM
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Way too much yodering Yoda.
Always some useful takeaway in information and/or the manner of it's telling.

Your gun is in a holster and as you draw you cock the hammer and fire.
1911 or Blackhawk.
Thats all.
Just conversation for a rainy night.

Did many chores and fun things in the Military besides my main responsibilities/schooling.
Wasn't NCOIC of the Burial Squad long enough to buy patent leather shoes, just solved the problems as asked, moved to another extra chore, but can spit shine with the best of them.

Fast draw/fanning just means that those who practiced those disciplines are not unfamiliar with firearms.

Transfer bar on my Blackhawk.
No transfer bar is carried on an empty chamber and when the hammer is cocked... its hot.
There's always a chance of mistakes between the holster and getting on target but that's why we learn to do it correctly and then practice.

Firearms are a way of life and not a hobby like stamp collecting etc etc.
Fishing, boats and operating big power tools as well.
Hope to add driving a tractor and steering a horse, better than when
I was growing up, as well.

Thx
RT
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:26 AM
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As someone who always liked Cond 2 on a 1911, I would never imagine fanning it. Especially with a Commander hammer!

"Slip-fire", is that the term for guns made to have the hammer pulled back and released, no trigger required?
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:14 AM
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[QUOTE=Imissedagain;140806086

Your gun is in a holster and as you draw you cock the hammer and fire.
1911 or Blackhawk.
Thats all.
Just conversation for a rainy night.



Thx
RT[/QUOTE]
In a past life when I had more hand strength and dexterity I carried my Colt .45ACP with the barrel loaded and hammer down. I only used one hand and cocked the hammer when I drew just like with a SA revolver. It was easier and safer for me to cock the hammer when drawing than carry cocked and throw the safety. My hand won't do do that anymore so now when I carry a .45ACP it's a P220. Larry
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:27 AM
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Condition 2 is fine as long as one understands all aspects of that mode of carry. Grip angle & hammer design make it not as fast as a SAA. SAA would be significantly faster imo.

As a general carry mode I think it's more appealing to left handers who dislike ambi Thumb safeties. Carrying a series 80 this way is preferable I think (VS series 70).

Lots of guys back in the day carried 1911's condition 2.

As for general comparisons, first shot speed SAA wins every time from hammer down VS 1911.

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Old 06-16-2020, 01:04 PM
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The problem with carrying a 1911 in C2 is that you have to lower the hammer on a live round, which means you have to pull the trigger to do so. Not something I want to deal with. With a SAA, you can always lower the hammer on an empty chamber for safety.

In the event of a high-stress self-defense situation with either gun, when your hands might be shaky, are you going to be able to lower the hammer safely on a live round? Again, not something I want to deal with.

That's why I stick with DAO revolvers or DA/SA semi-autos with decockers.

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Old 06-16-2020, 03:10 PM
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As long as the proper safety protocols are kept in mind & one is alert & slow there's nothing dangerous about lowering the hammer on a 1911 for condition 2 carry. Having said that, I prefer condition 1. In fact if I were in a spot where I thought things might go south quickly I'd be flicking off that safety & carrying condition 0 in the holster.

But I digress, the OP's topic is not about these things, it's about what is faster from hammer down, SAA or 1911. As I said before., SAA wins on first shot out of the holster every time.
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Old 06-16-2020, 03:50 PM
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I actually think we're on the same page. I can write a lot. I'm a lawyer before I became a Senior Chief or a Jedi Master......

Quote:
Your gun is in a holster and as you draw you cock the hammer and fire.
1911 or Blackhawk.
Thats all.
Just conversation for a rainy night
That's not fanning. So we agree on that much.

And we need rain - don't hog it all!
Quote:
Lots of guys back in the day carried 1911's condition 2.
Lots of Army guys carried their 1911s in Condition 3!
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:59 PM
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As the P.O. of the watch on the Quarter Deck back when C3 was mandated.
But that was in the early '60's in U.S. Ports.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:41 PM
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I have a vague memory of Jeff Cooper writing in one of his books that single-action revolvers, double-action revolvers and single action autos were all about the same for speed of first shot out of the holster (in good hands).
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
The problem with carrying a 1911 in C2 is that you have to lower the hammer on a live round, which means you have to pull the trigger to do so. Not something I want to deal with. With a SAA, you can always lower the hammer on an empty chamber for safety.

In the event of a high-stress self-defense situation with either gun, when your hands might be shaky, are you going to be able to lower the hammer safely on a live round? Again, not something I want to deal with.

That's why I stick with DAO revolvers or DA/SA semi-autos with decockers.
I've used double barrel and single barrel hammer shotguns, 1911 Colts, Marlin M39s and Winchester 94s for 68 yrs. (78-10) and I've never had a hammer slip and fire. BUT I always do it outside and pointed at the ground. IF in a shooting situation there's a good chance the law will take the gun and if I didn't think I could lower the hammer safely I would hand it to the law cocked and then it's their problem. Larry
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:58 PM
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I've used double barrel and single barrel hammer shotguns, 1911 Colts, Marlin M39s and Winchester 94s for 68 yrs. (78-10) and I've never had a hammer slip and fire. BUT I always do it outside and pointed at the ground. IF in a shooting situation there's a good chance the law will take the gun and if I didn't think I could lower the hammer safely I would hand it to the law cocked and then it's their problem. Larry
Fair enough. Still outside my comfort zone, though.
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Old 06-16-2020, 06:26 PM
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I think the only fanning one should be doing is sitting in front of one to cool off.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:06 PM
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I have seen SA revolvers beat by fanning. Dead give away is firing pin strikes across the web between chambers. The 22rf clones take a worse beating. Fanning is foolishness or gun tricks for experts. In my experience there is a never ending supply of fools but experts are in short supply.
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Imissedagain View Post
Was cleaning the old Blackhawk 45 and the Government Model today and wondering, not much difference carrying them as stated in the title.
Having been schooled in fast draw/fanning, while in the Air Force in the last half of the '60s, why or why not carry the SA autos that way if you also carry the old style revolvers?
I do carry Condition 1 with 1911s and P238s.

Thoughts other than the 1911 can be carried safely in Cond1 when nanoseconds are critical?
Fightng eith a SAA & a 1911 is a night & day thing. Besides the obvious reload time issue, you are starting out with 3 less rds. Then speed of hits, no contest. I would never seriously carry a SAA as an anti personnel weapon. Could I fight with one? Sure just not even close to a 1911.
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkenfast View Post
I have a vague memory of Jeff Cooper writing in one of his books that single-action revolvers, double-action revolvers and single action autos were all about the same for speed of first shot out of the holster (in good hands).
About the same is kinda vague. Yes, DA revo vs any semi in condition 1, first hits will be pretty much identical . The SA revo, a huge amount of practice required to thumb the hammer on presentation then you would be as fast but after that, fighting with a SA revo is a slow motion event imo & I am pretty good with mine. Easy to prove just run some basic drills with all three.
Btw, why would anyone carry a 1911 in any condition but cocked & locked?
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:32 PM
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SAA's used in fast draw (I'm not talking SASS) are highly customized along with the holsters etc. In fact they are essentially good for nothing else. This includes a lot of work to allow fanning, special hammer configuration, lock work, aluminum cylinder & barrel etc. You can't even fire actual conventional rounds only blanks or primer loaded wax bullets only.

Regular SAA's get fugged up due to people trying to 'fan' them or otherwise abusing them. Same as people spinning cylinders on DA revolvers & slamming then shut or screwing up extractors in semi-autos by placing a round in the chamber & slamming the slide into battery. I could go on.
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Old 06-17-2020, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chino74 View Post
SAA's used in fast draw (I'm not talking SASS) are highly customized along with the holsters etc. In fact they are essentially good for nothing else. This includes a lot of work to allow fanning, special hammer configuration, lock work, aluminum cylinder & barrel etc. You can't even fire actual conventional rounds only blanks or primer loaded wax bullets only.

Regular SAA's get fugged up due to people trying to 'fan' them or otherwise abusing them. Same as people spinning cylinders on DA revolvers & slamming then shut or screwing up extractors in semi-autos by placing a round in the chamber & slamming the slide into battery. I could go on.
And SAA used for fast draw are also typically not required to hit anything, often shot with blanks. Not a good fighting tool unless your attacker s sim or lesser armed, imo.
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Old 06-17-2020, 08:24 PM
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Btw, why would anyone carry a 1911 in any condition but cocked & locked?
Number 11 of the 12 golden safety rules is don't rely on the guns safety too keep the gun from firing. I have never and don't want too understand why a person gets upset if a loaded shotgun or rifle that is striker or internal hammer fired is pointed at them with the safety on but they will strap on a cocked pistol that is pointed at some part of their body and feel safe because the safety is on. I realize that a safety failing is probably 1 in 10 blue million but I'm trying my best too not be that 1. Larry
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Old 06-17-2020, 08:34 PM
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Number 11 of the 12 golden safety rules is don't rely on the guns safety too keep the gun from firing. I have never and don't want too understand why a person gets upset if a loaded shotgun or rifle that is striker or internal hammer fired is pointed at them with the safety on but they will strap on a cocked pistol that is pointed at some part of their body and feel safe because the safety is on. I realize that a safety failing is probably 1 in 10 blue million but I'm trying my best too not be that 1. Larry
Sounds like you dont understand the 1911. It was designed to be carried cocked & locked. Both manual & grip safety would have to fail if you negligently put your finger the trigger.
Fwiw, when I carry any pistol, its not pointed at any part of my body @ 3-3:30 iwb. I also dont get those that carry empty chamber on anything. You are 1/2 ready for a fight not carrying your gun in the condition it was designed, imho.
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Old 06-17-2020, 08:51 PM
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I see no condition designation for loaded chamber and hammer down on safety notch. 1911 has safety notch, m94 Winchester has safety notch, I am foggy on SAA clones, but I believe they also have safety notch. I own no SAA's now to check. Any thoughts?
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Old 06-17-2020, 09:09 PM
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Forgive me for asking, but how in the heck do you fan a M1911? About the time that hammer falls the slide is going to come back and snag your hand.

When I was a younger person, I was in the Corps and was assigned to the USMC Security Force Battalion, Pacific as a Combat Pistol & Combat Shotgun Instructor. We were trained by Instructors, who had been to Gunsite and trained by Lt.Col.Cooper and his instructors. We carried Condition 1, and this was the only place in the Corps who did. All other security forces carried condition 3. There was no Condition 0, did they invent one while I was asleep?
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Old 06-17-2020, 10:13 PM
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When I was at FT. Bliss one guy in our outfit joined a Fast Draw club. It’s been over 50yrs but I think the name was Raw Hiders. He started prowling to find a gun. He ended up with a very nice Ruger Blackhawk 44mg. We shot this pistol and it was close to on the money with factory Rem 44s, lead SWC bullets. Then he had big spoon hammer spur, barrel cut down and back sight removed. It wasn’t Bubba job, nice ruination. When he was done Gun was worthless.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:11 PM
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All other security forces carried condition 3. There was no Condition 0, did they invent one while I was asleep?
Someone invented it - all I did was steal it from the Internet. And EVERYONE I ever saw carry a 1911 in the military carried it in Condition 3. Personally, I think claiming that 1911s were designed to be carried in Condition 1 is a myth perpetrated by the guys who like to do it! I have seen LEOs in Texas do it - they like it, okay, fine by me.

Cowboy Fast Draw is still a current game but not popular with the Hollywood crowd as it was 70 or so years ago. And the shooters ARE required to hit a target with their wax bullets or the shot doesn't count no matter how fast it was.

Don't take my word for it........................here it is.............and no fanning!!! The guns are tricked out and that especially includes the hammers!

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Old 06-17-2020, 11:19 PM
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Someone invented it - all I did was steal it from the Internet. And EVERYONE I ever saw carry a 1911 in the military carried it in Condition 3. Personally, I think claiming that 1911s were designed to be carried in Condition 1 is a myth perpetrated by the guys who like to do it! I have seen LEOs in Texas do it - they like it, okay, fine by me.

Cowboy Fast Draw is still a current game but not popular with the Hollywood crowd as it was 70 or so years ago. And the shooters ARE required to hit a target with their wax bullets or the shot doesn't count no matter how fast it was.

Don't take my word for it........................here it is.............and no fanning!!! The guns are tricked out and that especially includes the hammers!

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Myth, seriously? Just what was the safety for? If it were designed to be carried emoty chamber, why out a safety on it? No, that is excatly why the safety was put there, to carry it with a round chambered.
I get it, its a bit creepy the first time you holster a cocked & locked 1911 but no real diff han a striker fired pistol with internal safeties.
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Old 06-17-2020, 11:51 PM
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Actually, the safety was added by the Army to overcome the objections of the cavalry. The 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 2. Cocked and locked was a risk reduction measure for the cavalry. An after market redesign.

You can look it up.
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Old 06-18-2020, 08:31 AM
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What, what about condition 0 ???

For those time when ya got to be settin' on ready & rockin' on go !!!



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Old 06-18-2020, 09:24 AM
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Ok, if you want a Condition without a number, it was not unknown for soldiers in foxholes at night to keep a 1911 on the half-cock notch, chamber loaded, safety off. Obviously a better idea with the orig style halfcock notch than later on.

IIRC the original intent of the safety was to let a Calvary guy re-holster safely while riding. Whereas with a SAA they used to just plant a round into nearby ground to "decock".
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Actually, the safety was added by the Army to overcome the objections of the cavalry. The 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 2. Cocked and locked was a risk reduction measure for the cavalry. An after market redesign.

You can look it up.
The 1911 as adopted, was designed for cocked & locked, pretty bovious since the hammer has to be cocked to apply the safety. It was not after market, ridiculous.
The half cock notch was never designed as a carry position but an addl safety element if the users thumb slipped off the hammer. Though again, why anyone would carry chambered, hammer down is just stupid. Probably why for decades empty chamber, hammer down was a military std.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
Ok, if you want a Condition without a number, it was not unknown for soldiers in foxholes at night to keep a 1911 on the half-cock notch, chamber loaded, safety off. Obviously a better idea with the orig style halfcock notch than later on.

IIRC the original intent of the safety was to let a Calvary guy re-holster safely while riding. Whereas with a SAA they used to just plant a round into nearby ground to "decock".
Which s probably true but then you are back to,cocked & locked, how it was meant to be carried.
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Old 06-18-2020, 11:11 AM
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That's interesting that the military required everyone to carry the gun in a way other than it was "designed for". I mean, since it was designed for them.

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Old 06-18-2020, 12:43 PM
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Carry positions as I was taught were from 1 to 4. We carried Condition 1 handguns. When we were in "Condition 0" as some call it, we were no longer "carrying". We had drawn our weapons and were in the process of firing. We operated under different rules than the police do.
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:42 PM
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Default Just say no to condition 2.

The problem with C2 on 1911 is getting to C2. You have to pull the trigger and lower the hammer on a live round. If you do get to C2 successfully, if the weapon is dropped and lands on the hammer, it will fire (Series 70). Finally, if you have to use the weapon, the hammer must be cocked under stress with the thumb. It could go off or get stuck in the half-cock position, rendering the weapon useless. If someone is not comfortable carrying a 1911 C1, they should carry something else.
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