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  #51  
Old 06-16-2020, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
........ Criminals are all around. Everywhere you go. You will never be able to completely avoid the "bad element".
I do often carry OC spray.
This incident occurred in an apartment complex. People were around......
Whoa; I just got a major case of "heebie jeebies" like I've been here before. Please tell me this didn't happen in Lansing Michigan. Joe
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Old 06-16-2020, 08:41 PM
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I would be interested to know the size of gun that would have been carried or earlier seen by the person who attempted the grab, the placement of where that gun would have been, and if there were any clothing or other “tells” that this individual might have seen in earlier encounters. In other words, what set this guy up to do what he did? There HAD to be something.

I think this may be the most important part of this analysis/lesson.

Lastly, the decision to not wear your gun that day was based on the concern you were going to a bad place? Isn’t that where you want to have your gun?

Not trying to be argumentative, but these are important factors related to this incident.
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Old 06-16-2020, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
Prison surveilance video has shown many instances of inmates practicing disarming techniques. The other point is from a Weapon Retention/Disarming Instructor class. A couple of folks had paddle holsters. They frequently lost both the firearm and holster.
I took a training class several years ago and during part of the classroom portion the instructor showed photos from prison yards showing inmates practicing such techniques.

Retention is one of the reasons I like my Kramer IWB holster. It uses solidly attached belt loops, secured with Chicago screws, instead of clips. Also, the holster itself does a really good job of retaining the gun even though it's an open-top holster. The draw is smooth and easy, if the gun is pulled straight out the top. The gun is difficult to remove if the gun is pulled from behind. I know this because of my attempts at weak-hand drawing. Of course, concealment is another level of retention that shouldn't be ignored, IMO.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Xfuzz View Post
If I were an unknown to you, a very bad hombre..
In a casual setting with general daily objects
within reach and I know your packing.

I will get your gun...
Or get shot. One if those two

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Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
I believe that in spite of some posters here saying otherwise, you are correct. If someone knows you are carrying concealed, and they want your gun bad enough....you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done 'differently'
I'm sorry but that is an entirely nonsensical statement.

"If they want your gun bad enough you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done differently"

I realize there's always the possibility but you do understand that you have a gun right? You are in possession of a deadly force multiplier. Can you see any possible use for a gun in that situation?

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Situational awareness becomes paramount. But even 100% on full alert, anyone can become a victim. Even John Correia.
Not John and not Chuck Norris.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
Not long ago I had an experience that shook me up a bit. I doubt many people ever think about it, but it happened to me.

I was out at a location I frequent due to my line of work. Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon.

On THAT particular day I did not carry but I usually did and I strongly suspect he noticed it one day and decided to pull that stunt later. Because of his background i suspect he was going to try to steal my weapon. I'm 200 lbs and muscular, and this guy was about 230 and about an inch shorter but built like a bouncer.

Keep in mind that if thugs are looking for a concealed carry person, the4y probably know exactly what to look for. That bulge. The extra long T shirt etc.

It honestly happened so fast it was over by the time I realized what he was doing.

..................................




But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.


I didn't think anything like this could happen to me but I was taken by surprise by the speed of it.
The damnedest thing would be to get shot by your own weapon.

This was an eye opening event for me and I've learned to always be alert because of it.

Have you ever had anything like this happen to you?

OP, Thankyou for sharing your situation and thoughts.... Police, who have to deal with People that are on drugs, or just plain Nuts, use Retention Holsters, On-Duty and off. A Level 3 Holster will give retention to the max.

A Survival technique is Visualization....You think thru a Scenario and how you would react to it before it happens.....In your example , You would place your hand over his on your weapon and if your weapon was on your Right, you would swivel hard right and with cupped hand striking the Ear hard or a Chin strike, forcing the Head back..opposite if your weapon is on your left, and step away to gain distance...

Fortunately, You didn’t have to resort to that, because you weren’t carrying, but ALWAYS watch their hands and ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings.

Talk to any Corrections Officer at a County jail or Prison and they’ll tell you the inmates practice disarming techniques and teach it to each other.

Stay Safe.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:29 PM
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ArmedandDangerous you reacted the same way the vast majority of us would, including myself.

A "Bad Guy" will pick up in a New York second if a person is trying to maintain a buffer zone and will assume they are intimidating the "Good Guy". Who knows what their next move will be.

Cops are trained and retrained on weapon retention and unfortunately cops continue to lose their lives by their own weapons.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
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Old 06-16-2020, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike 139 View Post
OP, Thankyou for sharing your situation and thoughts.... Police, who have to deal with People that are on drugs, or just plain Nuts, use Retention Holsters, On-Duty and off. A Level 3 Holster will give retention to the max.

A Survival technique is Visualization....You think thru a Scenario and how you would react to it before it happens.....In your example , You would place your hand over his on your weapon and if your weapon was on your Right, you would swivel hard right and with cupped hand striking the Ear hard or a Chin strike, forcing the Head back..opposite if your weapon is on your left, and step away to gain distance...

Fortunately, You didn’t have to resort to that, because you weren’t carrying, but ALWAYS watch their hands and ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings.

Talk to any Corrections Officer at a County jail or Prison and they’ll tell you the inmates practice disarming techniques and teach it to each other.

Stay Safe.
Thanks.
exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for.
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  #58  
Old 06-16-2020, 09:36 PM
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ArmedandDangerous you reacted the same way the vast majority of us would, including myself.

A "Bad Guy" will pick up in a New York second if a person is trying to maintain a buffer zone and will assume they are intimidating the "Good Guy". Who knows what their next move will be.

Cops are trained and retrained on weapon retention and unfortunately cops continue to lose their lives by their own weapons.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
Thank you.
It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.

I think I may get a partner and a synthetic practice handgun and practice stopping a disarm attempt.

I don't fear the man who practices 1000 techniques one time, I fear the man who practices one technique 1000 times.
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
Not long ago I had an experience that shook me up a bit. I doubt many people ever think about it, but it happened to me.

I was out at a location I frequent due to my line of work. Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon.

On THAT particular day I did not carry but I usually did and I strongly suspect he noticed it one day and decided to pull that stunt later. Because of his background i suspect he was going to try to steal my weapon. I'm 200 lbs and muscular, and this guy was about 230 and about an inch shorter but built like a bouncer.

Keep in mind that if thugs are looking for a concealed carry person, the4y probably know exactly what to look for. That bulge. The extra long T shirt etc.

It honestly happened so fast it was over by the time I realized what he was doing.

He then laughed it off as if he was just joking, but it was no joke. Had I been carrying an all out fight probably would have ensued.

I never went back to that location afterwards because after that I considered it too risky.

But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.

This changed my concealed carry attitude. Now I never allow anyone close enough to go for my concealed weapon. Keep in mind that because so many people do carry concealed, it might not be too difficult for thugs to profile who might be carrying and try to take your weapon.

Imagine if two guys just face punched you as they walked by and then went for your gun.

I didn't think anything like this could happen to me but I was taken by surprise by the speed of it. My advice is if you are carrying, ALWAYS be aware that criminals are out there who may be looking for someone to hit to get their weapon. If there's two, they can be on your REALLY fast and can attack you before you are even aware it's about to happen.

When I conceal carry now, I'm always vigilant to look at whos nearby and I try to always maintain at least 3 ft distance. Even at 3ft, someone can be on you in less than 1 second. I actually try to keep 6ft but it's more difficult as you get around more people. What would you do if someone went for your gun before you were prepared for the attack?

The damnedest thing would be to get shot by your own weapon.

This was an eye opening event for me and I've learned to always be alert because of it.

Have you ever had anything like this happen to you?
A good argument against open carry. I always try to keep tabs on people near me. In a crowd is the tough one. If you litterally have your head on a swivel you look nervous. It takes a lot of subtle head movements & body positioning to keep track. Crowds are where aiwb makes a bunch of sense.
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Old 06-16-2020, 10:58 PM
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Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes the bug. I focus on just this type of scenario. It is deadly force situation, no doubt.
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Left side is a striking implement.
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:20 PM
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Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes the bug. I focus on just this type of scenario. It is deadly force situation, no doubt.
Right side is a Benchmade Infidel.
Left side is a striking implement.
Insert thumbs up smiley. If I'm carrying a firearm, my knife is on the weak side (usually an Infidel). You can get in a couple of gut strikes fairly easily while pressing down on on your gun's backstrap. That's "Plan A" anyway.
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:29 PM
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Someone starts to grab you under any circumstances, it is time to find out just how deep you can drive your thumb into their eye socket.
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:34 PM
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With this person behind you, take your right foot heel, slam it down on his right, inside calf and slide it down to his right side instep.

At the same time, slam your left elbow into his rib cage, while spinning around hard to a forward frontal position. Take your right hand and tightly grab the other guys right wrist and twist backward as hard as you can.

Your assailant will nor be on his back.

What you now elect to do with your concealed carry is up to you.
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Old 06-17-2020, 07:28 AM
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Thank you.
It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.

...
If you're going expose your flaws to a few million total strangers on the internet, you need to come with thick skin.
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Old 06-17-2020, 08:54 AM
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A concealed firearm is an excellent defense against deadly threats. Far fewer of us will face deadly threats ever than CCW daily, so you always need to decide about the risk/benefit tradeoff. Carrying openly and regularly makes you a target for anyone who needs your firearm (it's harder than you think for felons to get one) and also limits your options in ordinary troubles or situations. The same is true for CCW if the firearm is not truly concealed, both physically and through keeping your mouth shut about it. I fear too many folks want to be known as armed without thinking through the value of no one but you knowing about your firearm.

Risk/benefit.

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Old 06-17-2020, 10:22 AM
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Let's not overlook one basic fact, the bad guy has the initiative. He chooses the victim, the time, the place, the method of attack.

Any response we are generally permitted to have is reactive. At some point, some distance, some amount of time there is nothing you can do to counter an attack once it starts. Until we get to a point where you can just open up on the "bad guys" when you see'em, the best you can hope for is they will tip their hand in time for you to react.
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
... Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon....
Your comments (as quoted above) seem to infer that you knew, even if unconsciously, the exact cause of your subsequent problem that day and your feelings of discomfort and concern.

If he felt confident he could approach that close and grasp you, he might've assessed your potential as being less of a possible threat to him better than you'd assessed him as being a possible threat to you ... even with you already knowing "a bit about his violent background".

Consider that close to 95% of all human communication (in person) occurs via body language and demeanor. Perhaps you weren't reading him as well as he was reading you. Or, your body language and demeanor was telling him things about you, and what you'd (unwillingly) "allow" him to do, and you just didn't realize what your manner was revealing about yourself.

Granted, I offer these comments after having entered my 49th year of my martial arts pursuits, and after having carried a badge for 34 years (active and then reserve, after retirement). The combination of those things gives me what I feel is at least a passing familiarity of the potential threats that may be presented by others, under a variety of circumstances, and having learned how to detect danger by the body language, demeanor, etc, of others, at least to some practical degree.

I've been told that while I've successfully "toned down" my physical presence and alert manner since retirement, that some folks still feel "something" about how I carry myself in everyday contact with folks, no matter how I may smile or act friendly and relaxed. As long as it may still give predators/predatory people pause, and hopefully induce them to avoid "targeting" me, I'm content. Do I "trust" that it will? Obviously not. Predators are predators, and given the opportunity will likely continue to willfully prey on others. Not all of them may have a well developed sense of self preservation, either, or they simply ignore it in favor of pursuing their violent nature. Go figure.

Sometimes when some "average, law-abiding" folks may carry a gun on their person as a lawful self defense weapon, even though it may provide them with a sense of comfort, it may turn out that they're more or less carrying it around until it may be taken from them by someone else of violent criminal intent ... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".

It is what it is ... and who has ever intimated the world is a safe place?

No reason to walk around "on edge", though, or giving the dog eye to each and every person. Overall, unreasoning paranoia is never a good look.

Consider the difference between a bare fear and a reasonable fear, and how the former may be problematic compared to the latter, and then add a pinch of common sense and prudence.
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:17 PM
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... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".
I have seen this in person. It didn't end well for the prankster. He ended up eating through a straw for 6 weeks.

I believe a citizen who carries has a duty to maintain control of their firearm. Personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that says "If he is trying to take away my gun, he means me serious bodily injury or death, react accordingly".

I am prepared do to what is necessary to go home to my family at the end of the day/shift, and will make every effort to do that regardless or the consequences to the offender.

This is not a time for warm & fuzzy feelings. Act decisively and quickly to stop the threat.

And for what it is worth - A lot of LE agencies consider an attempt to disarm an officer a deadly force event, and use of deadly force to end the attack is authorized/permitted. I would imagine that they would view it the same way for a citizen.
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:40 PM
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It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.
Not difficult to tell who isn't a professional either.
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Old 06-17-2020, 04:25 PM
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Not difficult to tell who isn't a professional either.

I would add. The OP should look up the meaning of the word "ambush". This may sound pedantic, English being only my third language, but now that he has disclosed what happened. I can guarantee that he was not "ambushed".

I'm out.
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Old 06-17-2020, 07:15 PM
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I've been simultaneously gifted and yet cursed by my unsettling appearance which tends to prevent most folks from even making eye contact with me, much less engaging me in conversation.

I stand 6 feet tall, I'm something of an amateur bodybuilder, and a potent combination of a traumatic life coupled with a few unfortunate accidents have left me with a numerous facial scars, a lazy eye, crooked/jagged teeth, a permanent thousand-yard-stare, and very few reasons to smile. Underneath my external appearance, I'm really not a bad guy, but the way I look has dissuaded folks good and bad from interacting with me, and those who have tend to be further dissuaded by my eccentric behavior and offputting PTSD symptoms. One of said symptoms lies in the utter inability to drop my guard, so I'm always instinctively on the lookout for danger.
If all else fails, I carry a BUG and a knife, so anyone who attempt to grab my gun is liable to receive any number of serious injuries for their efforts.

That being said, it's important to note that most thieves are looking for an easy target, so for most folks, simply looking like the sort of person is typically enough to dissuade your average would-be mugger. Even so much as trying to swipe someone else's weapon requires nerves, desperation, or a degree of recklessness which is not characteristic of your average thug.

For everything else, strength, courage, and vigilance should suffice. The best way to avoid becoming a victim is refusing to be one. Never surrender, don't go down without a fight, and should you ever become a victim despite your best efforts, don't ever adopt that label, because that's not what you are nor who you are, you are a survivor and what can't kill you only makes you one mean son of a gun.
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Old 06-17-2020, 07:33 PM
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Thank you.

I think I may get a partner and a synthetic practice handgun and practice stopping a disarm attempt.
I don't recall who makes them, but the aluminum practice guns don't break. The synthetic ones have been known to under the stress put on them. This is more a problem in disarming than in retention, but there have been injuries. Unless the synthetics now have metal reinforcement, been awhile.

Or, you could both wear gloves.

FWIW, I found the Lindell system better than whatever S&W Academy was teaching back when. Can't recall the name right now.
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Old 06-17-2020, 08:27 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
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All the bravado aside . . .

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Old 06-17-2020, 09:28 PM
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I have seen this in person. It didn't end well for the prankster. He ended up eating through a straw for 6 weeks.

I believe a citizen who carries has a duty to maintain control of their firearm. Personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that says "If he is trying to take away my gun, he means me serious bodily injury or death, react accordingly".

I am prepared do to what is necessary to go home to my family at the end of the day/shift, and will make every effort to do that regardless or the consequences to the offender.

This is not a time for warm & fuzzy feelings. Act decisively and quickly to stop the threat.

And for what it is worth - A lot of LE agencies consider an attempt to disarm an officer a deadly force event, and use of deadly force to end the attack is authorized/permitted. I would imagine that they would view it the same way for a citizen.
If you don't mind, this surely made the news, would you mind providing a link to the source or some info so I can look it up?

I would like to read more about this case.

Thanks
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Old 06-17-2020, 09:30 PM
ArmednDangerous ArmednDangerous is offline
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I would add. The OP should look up the meaning of the word "ambush". This may sound pedantic, English being only my third language, but now that he has disclosed what happened. I can guarantee that he was not "ambushed".

I'm out.
Here's the definition I found.....

According to this, this definitely was an "Ambush"
He was "hiding" in plain sight.

An ambush is a sneak attack. To ambush your enemy, hide and wait for him to come near and then pounce on him. ... Ambush comes from a Latin word meaning “to place in a wood,” and hiding in the woods behind a tree is a classic starting point for an ambush.

But is this really that important?
It seems to me whatever it was, the situation was more important than what I called it. Just my opinion.

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Old 06-17-2020, 10:04 PM
ArmednDangerous ArmednDangerous is offline
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Your comments (as quoted above) seem to infer that you knew, even if unconsciously, the exact cause of your subsequent problem that day and your feelings of discomfort and concern.
I would say that I knew he had the potential for bad moves, but given months of talking to him and having quite a few conversations with him, it's possible I missed the psychosis.
Lesson learned.

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If he felt confident he could approach that close and grasp you, he might've assessed your potential as being less of a possible threat to him better than you'd assessed him as being a possible threat to you ... even with you already knowing "a bit about his violent background".
Possibly.
We weren't exactly strangers. I think he mainly did it to be 'Macho". He didn't get violent after not finding my gun.
To be honest, since I wasn't carrying, I wasn't sure what the hell he was doing until I left. Then it dawned on me.

I do believe that had I been carrying that day, his lunge towards me would have been perceived differently and responded to differently.

This has never happened before or since, and I don't intend to allow a situation like that again. But I would guess that some of the members of this forum will personally experience similar situations or worse. But VERY FEW will ever post it here. (for good reason)

Someone mentioned that maybe I bragged of carrying and that's not the case. I think he noticed it because it was summer and I may have been printing unwittingly.

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Consider that close to 95% of all human communication (in person) occurs via body language and demeanor. Perhaps you weren't reading him as well as he was reading you. Or, your body language and demeanor was telling him things about you, and what you'd (unwillingly) "allow" him to do, and you just didn't realize what your manner was revealing about yourself.

Or perhaps he was on drugs that day or drinking or a host of possibilities. Who knows? There are a lot of drugged out crazed people out there. He probably worked as a bouncer or in some capacity where he was used to physical confrontation and more comfortable with it than most people. This happened a while back and I can't recall all his details now.
Hard to say. I would say that I'm about as menacing as the average guy. Neither wimpy looking nor fierce looking.


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Granted, I offer these comments after having entered my 49th year of my martial arts pursuits, and after having carried a badge for 34 years (active and then reserve, after retirement). The combination of those things gives me what I feel is at least a passing familiarity of the potential threats that may be presented by others, under a variety of circumstances, and having learned how to detect danger by the body language, demeanor, etc, of others, at least to some practical degree.
You certainly have a lot more experience than I do. Maybe more than most here. I'm a life member of the international TaeKwonDo Federation and I've competed in tournaments.
But that was a while back. I wouldn't say I'm a "tough" guy per se, but I would most definitely say I'm not the easiest adversary.


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I've been told that while I've successfully "toned down" my physical presence and alert manner since retirement, that some folks still feel "something" about how I carry myself in everyday contact with folks, no matter how I may smile or act friendly and relaxed. As long as it may still give predators/predatory people pause, and hopefully induce them to avoid "targeting" me, I'm content. Do I "trust" that it will? Obviously not. Predators are predators, and given the opportunity will likely continue to willfully prey on others. Not all of them may have a well developed sense of self preservation, either, or they simply ignore it in favor of pursuing their violent nature. Go figure.
Absolutely. In spite of this one lapse, I would say this sounds like me.


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Sometimes when some "average, law-abiding" folks may carry a gun on their person as a lawful self defense weapon, even though it may provide them with a sense of comfort, it may turn out that they're more of less carrying it around until it may be taken from them by someone else of violent criminal intent ... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".

It is what it is ... and who has ever intimated the world is a safe place?
I think this is more truthful than most people realize.
I'm somewhat surprised we don't see this more often.
We have a lot of MS13 and other violent offenders coming up from South America and Mexico....not to mention home brewed evil. I have a feeling we are going to be hearing more of this in the future.

I prefer to always have a gun in the car when I'm in it and at home. But I don't carry all the time. Like you say, no matter how big and bad you may be, there is always someone bigger and badder or working in groups that can ambush or surprise attack you..


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No reason to walk around "on edge", though, or giving the dog eye to each and every person. Overall, unreasoning paranoia is never a good look.

Consider the difference between a bare fear and a reasonable fear, and how the former may be problematic compared to the latter, and then add a pinch of common sense and prudence.
Agreed. Thanks. Good read.

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Old 06-17-2020, 10:09 PM
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I don't recall who makes them, but the aluminum practice guns don't break. The synthetic ones have been known to under the stress put on them. This is more a problem in disarming than in retention, but there have been injuries. Unless the synthetics now have metal reinforcement, been awhile.

Or, you could both wear gloves.

FWIW, I found the Lindell system better than whatever S&W Academy was teaching back when. Can't recall the name right now.
I have a simulated Glock arriving Saturday.
Thanks
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Old 06-18-2020, 04:13 PM
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I wouldn't say I'm a "tough" guy per se, but I would most definitely say I'm not the easiest adversary.
I would suspect that the guy who was able to put his hands on you and have you completely under his control with zero resistance on your part would disagree.
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Old 06-18-2020, 05:39 PM
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I would suspect that the guy who was able to put his hands on you and have you completely under his control with zero resistance on your part would disagree.
"Completely under his control"
Yeah, you have a very active imagination.
ok.

But just know that you are not like him and would never be able to do what he did and that he would have yours as well

How do I know this? Your need to keep making these silly, unnecessary remarks proves you are weak.

That said, if you are severely handicapped in any way then maybe not weakness, but fear. You list yourself as a veteran. If you are a wounded warrior then I understand your frustration.

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Old 06-18-2020, 06:12 PM
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Situational context and the totality of the circumstances would have to be known in order to try and reasonably determine whether he was just a bully who enjoyed being able to push you around ... or someone who would've taken sudden advantage of the situation by taking your weapon, just to take it (because he wanted to, and could), or whether he would've used it on you.

Why would he have wanted to use it on you, though? Why did he just grab you and momentarily immobilize you if he'd actually intended to cause you serious bodily injury or death, only to then take your gun and cause you serious bodily injury or death by using your weapon on you?

Why not just come up to you and seriously hurt you without warning, to try and disable you from being able to access a gun if he suspected you might be wearing one (and he wanted it)? He'd demonstrated that he could put you at a serious disadvantage... but he didn't. Maybe he might have done so if he'd felt the outline of a gun?

Well, that didn't happen, so it's only speculation to try and ponder what didn't happen, and why it didn't happen. Perhaps this fellow just liked being a bully and throwing his weight around to cause people fear or shame, when he thought he could get away with it? Having likely become a little familiar with you over the time involved, he apparently sized you up and decided he could do what he did with impunity, or prevent you from effectively resisting. It seems he might not have been wrong, either way.

On the other hand, from your descriptions it doesn't sound like he intended you seriously bodily harm or death, so considering a response involving deadly force would've likely been unlawful, and gotten you in trouble. Or, he might've even used greater force and claimed self defense against your presentation of a gun, and that might've worked out for him if the police had responded.

While it's laudable and prudent to consider how to physically retain possession and control of your gun, you still need to be mindful of the laws involving the use of deadly force in your state (as well as the threatened use of it, brandishing, etc) before you find yourself in a situation where you decide to use it against somebody.

Perhaps you might explore the options for non-LE training in the laws of your state, and/or investing in reading up on general discussions of the topic. Mas Ayoob has written some helpful books, as have some other experienced authorities on the topic (some of whom are active or retired cops, and some others attorneys). Ignorance of the laws can result in some mistakes of judgment.

Now, I'm merely another member of the general public at this point, no longer being a peace officer (for my state). I'm not an attorney, either, so I certainly cannot presume to offer legal advice. (You can go buy some, though. )

Not sure what "lessons" you may feel you've gleaned from that previous incident, but firearms retention may not be as high on a list or priorities - if I were in your place - as you seem to wish it to be.

Your call, though. Not my business, other than engaging in polite (non-expert) conversation on some internet forum. I don't presume to have any answers. I wasn't there.

Best regards.
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Old 06-18-2020, 06:22 PM
ArmednDangerous ArmednDangerous is offline
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Situational context and the totality of the circumstances would have to be known in order to try and reasonably determine whether he was just a bully who enjoyed being able to push you around ... or someone who would've taken sudden advantage of the situation by taking your weapon, just to take it (because he wanted to, and could), or whether he would've used it on you.

Why would he have wanted to use it on you, though? Why did he just grab you and momentarily immobilize you if he'd actually intended to cause you serious bodily injury or death, only to then take your gun and cause you serious bodily injury or death by using your weapon on you?

Why not just come up to you and seriously hurt you without warning, to try and disable you from being able to access a gun if he suspected you might be wearing one (and he wanted it)? He'd demonstrated that he could put you at a serious disadvantage... but he didn't. Maybe he might have done so if he'd felt the outline of a gun?

Well, that didn't happen, so it's only speculation to try and ponder what didn't happen, and why it didn't happen. Perhaps this fellow just liked being a bully and throwing his weight around to cause people fear or shame, when he thought he could get away with it? Having likely become a little familiar with you over the time involved, he apparently sized you up and decided he could do what he did with impunity, or prevent you from effectively resisting. It seems he might not have been wrong, either way.

On the other hand, from your descriptions it doesn't sound like he intended you seriously bodily harm or death, so considering a response involving deadly force would've likely been unlawful, and gotten you in trouble. Or, he might've even used greater force and claimed self defense against your presentation of a gun, and that might've worked out for him if the police had responded.

While it's laudable and prudent to consider how to physically retain possession and control of your gun, you still need to be mindful of the laws involving the use of deadly force in your state (as well as the threatened use of it, brandishing, etc) before you find yourself in a situation where you decide to use it against somebody.

Perhaps you might explore the options for non-LE training in the laws of your state, and/or investing in reading up on general discussions of the topic. Mas Ayoob has written some helpful books, as have some other experienced authorities on the topic (some of whom are active or retired cops, and some others attorneys). Ignorance of the laws can result in some mistakes of judgment.

Now, I'm merely another member of the general public at this point, no longer being a peace officer (for my state). I'm not an attorney, either, so I certainly cannot presume to offer legal advice. (You can go buy some, though. )

Not sure what "lessons" you may feel you've gleaned from that previous incident, but firearms retention may not be as high on a list or priorities - if I were in your place - as you seem to wish it to be.

Your call, though. Not my business, other than engaging in polite (non-expert) conversation on some internet forum. I don't presume to have any answers. I wasn't there.

Best regards.
Good information. Thanks.

The entire incident took less than 2 seconds. maybe 1.5 seconds.

As mentioned, since I was NOT carrying at that time, I didn't really realize what he was doing until after the fact. It's like if someone felt your lower leg in less than 2 seconds and you had nothing there, you might wonder what the heck they are doing.
I would imagine the normal human response is a few seconds of confusion. I guess depending on the person and situation an instant counterattack might be the way to go.

It's like you're talking to someone and they suddenly reach around your waist then move back. LESS than 2 seconds.
You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted. since I had had many discussions with him it was not expected. And in the instant, a bit confusing.

It would be like someone saying you let your guard down and invited the attack, if someone sucker punched you from behind.

I'm not sure that if I was carrying that day that I could have reacted that fast. it was super quick. But I believe that if I had been carrying I would have perceived his move as much more threatening.

Because of this incident, I will likely be more prone to instantly counter attack if anything like this happens again. However it still requires careful attention because if you attack someone erroneously the consequences could be serious. Do you shoot, slice up or attack full on every time someone touches you? No.
Unless you like small cells. Every situation can be different.

Anyway, good feedback.

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Old 06-18-2020, 08:09 PM
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Good information. Thanks.

The entire incident took less than 2 seconds. maybe 1.5 seconds.

As mentioned, since I was NOT carrying at that time, I didn't really realize what he was doing until after the fact.

You still don't know his intention for having done it. Not unless you asked him and he happened to be honest about it. You're speculating.

However, you (hopefully) learned how quickly someone could put you at a position of physical disadvantage. Unfortunately, this can also put you at a position of disadvantage in grasping and understanding motive, and that chews up more time (OODA Loop stuff).

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I would imagine the normal human response is a few seconds of confusion. I guess depending on the person and situation an instant counterattack might be the way to go.
Lots of room to speculate about "normal human response". Situational context comes into play.

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It's like you're talking to someone and they suddenly reach around your waist then move back. LESS than 2 seconds.
You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted. since I had had many discussions with him it was not expected. And in the instant, a bit confusing.
Confusion when confronted by the unexpected isn't unusual. You didn't expect it, and it rather seems that you may not have given any thought to your range of potential options should it happen in that situation, or in variations on a theme.

Granted, anybody can be sandbagged. There's a wide difference between oblivious (with some naivety?) and being tensely paranoid and startled by anything done by each and every person you meet, though. Strive for the optimal balance of awareness and alertness in your life and daily activities.

I'm not a "hugging" person, nor someone who encourages close approach and proximity to my person by others. I also don't like it when someone directly approaches me from behind, or lingers standing very close behind me (especially if they're facing toward me, etc). I'll move and shift to change the dynamics of the situation, but without telegraphing anything resembling a "threat" to them. Why would I? Maybe they're simply being inattentive, or they're naturally (or culturally) inclined to be comfortable with a much closer social distancing space. (Except for now, of course, during this covid concern.)

The "You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted" comment leaves worlds to think about. Consider getting some training or education in how the law works in such matters. (I already mention the significant legal difference to be considered between claiming a bare fear versus a reasonable fear? It's not just a catchy slogan.)

The number of discussions you may have with someone may influence you to lower your "trust" needle, even though you knew about his "violent" background. It wouldn't me, but that's me. That said, that certainly does not mean I'd automatically resort to an excessive (unreasonable and unjustified) amount of force if merely surprised by someone getting too close, nor even attempting to grasp me in a bear hug. Totality of circumstances. Was he making verbal threats? Has he commented that he might take There's a lot that can be done to prevent and dissuade someone from doing that, which you've possibly seen or learned with your karate background.

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...But I believe that if I had been carrying I would have perceived his move as much more threatening.
Why?

What else was involved that might've reasonably communicated an intention on his part to cause you serious bodily injury or death. With or without your gun? Why couldn't he simply have been a bully or meathead who liked to intimidate people?

For all you know, he might've turned out to have been shocked to suddenly feel a gun belted around your waist, and might've been concerned that you might over react to a stupid rude stunt on his part.

When it comes right down to it, what can you actually articulate that would make a reasonable person believe he was checking you for a gun? Sure, someone carrying a gun that feel that suspicion, or at least wonder about it. But was it present on his part?

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Because of this incident, I will likely be more prone to instantly counter attack if anything like this happens again. However it still requires careful attention because if you attack someone erroneously the consequences could be serious. ...
Careful attention if you "attack someone erroneously"? That's putting it charitably. Perhaps consider becoming a bit more aware to the potential for someone to deliberately put you in a position of physical disadvantage? But not to the point of being scared and paranoid and being unable to use good judgment to make a response, if indeed a physical response is appropriate, but that's also not unwarranted, unnecessary and unreasonable ... and unjustified (hence, unlawful)?

Have you ever had the opportunity to take some short training class/course, especially as part of concealed carry firearms training, which involves educating you about the local laws of your state and how they're commonly enforced? Might be a good place to start. There's (unfortunately) no shortage of people who have been sentenced to county jails and state prisons after making mistakes of judgment in the use of force, and were shocked to suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the law when police and the courts started sorting things out.
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Old 06-18-2020, 09:42 PM
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You still don't know his intention for having done it. Not unless you asked him and he happened to be honest about it. You're speculating.
in retrospect, there is the possibility that you are correct.
I never asked him to confirm that he was feeling for my handgun.

In fact, we had been talking amicably for about 1/2 an hour when he did it.

My conclusion was that it was the only thing he could have been doing.

Fortunately, I will never know what would have happened had I been carrying that day but if I am carrying and someone grabs for my gun I have no choice but to fight.

Even so, if IN COURT (after the big fight) the guy claims he was only trying to flick a bee off my waist, then in Arizona for example, I could face a mandatory 5 - 15 years in prison.

Self defense is not as easy as just "gouging someones eyes out" simply because they touch you inappropriately.

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Old 06-19-2020, 12:57 AM
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There are a number of posts here that say I was weak, failed to act etc where the poster said the guy in my scenario would have been shot or physically attacked if it had happened to them.

I think everyone who said that would do well to watch this Lawyer and his advice on Gun use. Extremely informative video.

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Old 06-19-2020, 04:07 AM
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There's a difference between choosing not to react because legalities are in question and not being able to react because you got caught short.

The first time something like this happened to me I learned two very valuable lessons. First yes, it can happen to you. The second being regardless of what you hear on the internet, bad guys are NOT afraid of you. They don't generally think you have the testicular fortitude to do anything anyway unless you SHOW them different.

Now I realize that my circumstances are a little different. By its very nature, my job involves confrontations with people but I don't hang around for 30 minutes talking amicably with sociopaths. I conduct my business and I move on to the next thing.

I can't remember the last time I left my house unarmed. It's simply not something I do, so there isn't going to be a day where it's okay for you to grab me because I don't have a gun anyway.

It doesn't matter if I know you or not if you put your hands on me like that unexpectedly you're going to get a reaction and it's going to be a reaction is assumes that you are intending to do me harm, that's how I was trained and that's what my experience dictates.

I am going to suggest again (and for the last time) that the OP get some actual, professional, training with an emphasis on MUC, weapons retention and Force on Force. Otherwise, as has already been suggested by another poster, he is simply holding his gun for whoever ends up taking it from him.

Having said that, you all enjoy your discussion
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:26 AM
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Unless you live an extremely restricted life, people will get close to you. Having some H2H and weapon retention skills is a good idea. Reading an article, watching a video or attending a single class won’t be much help though. Unless you’re really physically gifted, you’ll likely need to study and practice a fair amount to be able to actually apply them, but anything is better than nothing. Some actual situational and environmental awareness and managing unknown contacts study is appropriate as well.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:15 PM
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Videos aren't the be-all, end-all, but they can help. At my age, I'm not looking for a 100% solution to every possible problem. Just some simple tools to help get an edge.

I like this guys videos. Straight forward. Simple techniques.


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Old 06-19-2020, 04:10 PM
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Before I retired I was required to attend an in-service defensive tactics class as part of the usual training cycle. I'd not been required to go through that particular training for some years. I naturally knew the instructor, who was good.

At one point the class involved a weapon retention technique (belt-holstered duty weapon), demonstrating a technique to try and maintain control of the weapon, attempting to deny access and control of it to someone forcefully attempting to wrest it from the holster of the "defending officer".

The "attacker" with whom I was paired was approx 10+/- years younger, several inches taller and had about 40-50 pounds on me (not hanging around his waist, either). Let's just say that he was physically "capable".

As soon as he grabbed at my simulated holstered weapon, I poked him (not hard, and intentionally not causing any injury). He couldn't jerk back his upper body, back-pedal and get away from me fast enough. His hands had quickly flown away from my simulated weapon. The instructor just smiled and shook his head, and reminded me that they were teaching the new people different denial of weapon tactics nowadays.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:39 PM
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I remember working a crowd control detail and having a civilian bump into my back on purpose to confirm I was wearing my Second Chance vest. I really pissed me off.
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:27 PM
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No cop or CCW holder has ever lost his pistol by somebody standing an arms length away and extending one arm or the other to grab his pistol. It's sad that these videos are so unrealistic . . .

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Videos aren't the be-all, end-all, but they can help. At my age, I'm not looking for a 100% solution to every possible problem. Just some simple tools to help get an edge.

I like this guys videos. Straight forward. Simple techniques.

In Holster Retention

In Hand Retention
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:46 PM
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Just FWIW ...

According the FBI's LEOKA stats (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted), from 2010-2019 (inclusive) there were 511 cops feloniously killed.

491 were killed with a weapon other than their own, and 20 were killed with their own firearms. Lots of tables and distilled data that can be viewed. You can even find the number of victim cops who attempted to use their weapons, how many (average) rounds were fired by those were were able to fire them, number of rounds (averaged) fired by assisting officers and even the number of rounds fired (averaged) by the offenders, if you want to browse among the tables.

In other parts of the reports you can get summaries of the incidents. (Search by state)

FBI — Officers Feloniously Killed

FBI — Summaries: Officers Feloniously Killed
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
No cop or CCW holder has ever lost his pistol by somebody standing an arms length away and extending one arm or the other to grab his pistol. It's sad that these videos are so unrealistic . . .
Did you actually watch the video or did you just respond. The reason I ask is because he says the same thing.
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:11 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
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I watched it. Trying to keep others from wasting their time.

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Did you actually watch the video or did you just respond. The reason I ask is because he says the same thing.
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Before I retired I was required to attend an in-service defensive tactics class as part of the usual training cycle. I'd not been required to go through that particular training for some years. I naturally knew the instructor, who was good.

At one point the class involved a weapon retention technique (belt-holstered duty weapon), demonstrating a technique to try and maintain control of the weapon, attempting to deny access and control of it to someone forcefully attempting to wrest it from the holster of the "defending officer".

The "attacker" with whom I was paired was approx 10+/- years younger, several inches taller and had about 40-50 pounds on me (not hanging around his waist, either). Let's just say that he was physically "capable".

As soon as he grabbed at my simulated holstered weapon, I poked him (not hard, and intentionally not causing any injury). He couldn't jerk back his upper body, back-pedal and get away from me fast enough. His hands had quickly flown away from my simulated weapon. The instructor just smiled and shook his head, and reminded me that they were teaching the new people different denial of weapon tactics nowadays.
What exactly do you mean by "Poked him" ?
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmednDangerous View Post
What exactly do you mean by "Poked him" ?
I deliberately worded it in that vague manner. This isn't a "how to" martial arts self defense or defensive tactics forum, nor am I your martial arts teacher, coach, sifu, etc.

Depending on your own length of study, practice and degree of accomplishment in a martial art, you might have already learned how to apply various strikes to different anatomical areas, their effects and how to exert the force involved to avoid causing serious injury (to the degree possible for the extent of the threat and totality of the circumstances), while still achieving your desired result.

If not, consider reapplying yourself to the study of a martial art again.

FWIW, when that afternoon class of DT was held, they also included a technique for "disarming" an attacker who was pointing a gun at the defending cop. I thought that was interesting.

I used a different disarming technique in that, too. One that took my (same) "attacker" right down to his knees and made him relinquish the weapon, while putting the muzzle offline to myself. More or less the same response from the guy teaching the DT class. The "attacker" wanted nothing to do with trying to point the gun at me, or maintain possession of it, and the instructor reminded me that we were teaching ... gentler? ... different methods of dealing with such things.

Well, I have a strong dislike and aversion to people threatening me with weapons, and especially guns. The "attacker" was uninjured, and I was no longer being threatened. I don't think it even would've looked "bad" on camera, or if viewed by bystanders. Then again, since I'd repeatedly turned down the position of head DT instructor for one of the divisions some years prior (and caught some minor, but not career-ending, flak for it up the chain of command), I can't really offer any criticism of what the program became when other people became involved. Just one of those things.
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Old 06-23-2020, 12:06 AM
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LOL ... Thread did not go as OP intended.


I’m wondering why in the world anyone would feel comfortable letting someone outside of their household get within 6 feet of them these days anyway. I mean, this virus ain’t finished being a threat yet.
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Old 06-23-2020, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpus13 View Post
LOL ... Thread did not go as OP intended.


I’m wondering why in the world anyone would feel comfortable letting someone outside of their household get within 6 feet of them these days anyway. I mean, this virus ain’t finished being a threat yet.
Yeah, that got ugly really fast and didn’t let up......but like a car wreck....I could not look away. Now I can move along.
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Old 06-23-2020, 08:22 AM
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Had a woman grab my revolver and almost wrench it free of the holster. I grabbed her wrist w/one hand and dropped her w/a good right cross. The strange thing was there were no pre attack indicators. We were facing each other while I was explaining the law relative to domestic assault. No retention holsters in the late ‘60s, she was so strong the holster tore as the gun came partially out.
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Old 06-23-2020, 11:38 AM
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short n sweet
no gray matter

Regardless of your occupation , training never ends
Always strive to get better at what you do

the end
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