Not long ago I had an experience that shook me up a bit. I doubt many people ever think about it, but it happened to me.

I was out at a location I frequent due to my line of work. Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon.

On THAT particular day I did not carry but I usually did and I strongly suspect he noticed it one day and decided to pull that stunt later. Because of his background i suspect he was going to try to steal my weapon. I'm 200 lbs and muscular, and this guy was about 230 and about an inch shorter but built like a bouncer.

Keep in mind that if thugs are looking for a concealed carry person, the4y probably know exactly what to look for. That bulge. The extra long T shirt etc.

It honestly happened so fast it was over by the time I realized what he was doing.

He then laughed it off as if he was just joking, but it was no joke. Had I been carrying an all out fight probably would have ensued.

I never went back to that location afterwards because after that I considered it too risky.

But if you have never had anything like this happen to you, it's good to think about it ahead of time. it happened so fast that he was pulling back by the time it registered what he was doing. Less than 2 seconds.

This changed my concealed carry attitude. Now I never allow anyone close enough to go for my concealed weapon. Keep in mind that because so many people do carry concealed, it might not be too difficult for thugs to profile who might be carrying and try to take your weapon.

Imagine if two guys just face punched you as they walked by and then went for your gun.

I didn't think anything like this could happen to me but I was taken by surprise by the speed of it. My advice is if you are carrying, ALWAYS be aware that criminals are out there who may be looking for someone to hit to get their weapon. If there's two, they can be on your REALLY fast and can attack you before you are even aware it's about to happen.

When I conceal carry now, I'm always vigilant to look at whos nearby and I try to always maintain at least 3 ft distance. Even at 3ft, someone can be on you in less than 1 second. I actually try to keep 6ft but it's more difficult as you get around more people. What would you do if someone went for your gun before you were prepared for the attack?

The damnedest thing would be to get shot by your own weapon.

This was an eye opening event for me and I've learned to always be alert because of it.

Have you ever had anything like this happen to you?

Whew! That's bad juju, bad karma, bad something.

That's a really weird event - most folks don't touch other folks like that or even anything remotely like that.

So, no, it never happened, and I'm a little guy, I don't let large men near me if I don't know them well and know them to be peaceable.

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Come and take it!!

"I wasn't on full alert." No you weren't...to allow hands-on!? He was confident in your reaction going into it. You now know how (little) he regards you. No sugar-coating.

Do you believe no one could touch you in a surprise attack? Are you on "Full Alert" 100% of the time?

I guarantee if someone wanted to they could knock you out cold and you would never know what hit you. The element of surprise is hard to overcome.

We are all vulnerable. Which is why we share stories, CCW, practice and learn.

Bad karma?
Why does this have to be my fault?
Or, we have a society full of bad players and the odds of you encountering one are increasing.

Yes, weird event. I made the mistake of letting my guard down because he talked about his little girls, and wife and how hard we works and this was months after I first met him so he seemed to not be a threat. If there's a psychologist on the forum they might have figured him sooner, but I don't think anyone else here is immune to surprise attacks like this.

Everyone has a story. Road rage, home invasion, robbery...something. Few of us get out of here with a perfectly clean slate.

As far as not letting large men close to you....best friends and brothers have been known to kill one another. It happens.
Wonderful people sometimes fall victim. Kate Steinle

I've worked as a security guard for the last 12 years and yes I have had people try to take my gun off me. In accordance with all my training the general assumption is the first thing somebody's going to do if they get your gun off you is shoot you with it. A gun grab is considered a deadly threat and it is responded to accordingly.

I don't understand your story. You originally said that you had to go to that location because of your work. Later you said since the incident happened you never went back there because you deemed it too risky. If the choice was yours and you knew that the area was shady you shouldn't have been there in the first place.


I am not on "FULL ALERT" 100% of the time. I'm not even on "FULL ALERT 100% of the time at work. It's not possible. However there are places that I'm required to go to because of my job that I wouldn't be caught dead in off the clock. In those places I am on full alert. Granted, in my situation it's a little bit different because anybody I run into isn't supposed to be there and I have the authority to tell them to leave BUT I don't allow them into my space and I will tell them to back up.

Bottom line if I don't know you I don't let you put me in that position. Setting appropriate boundaries is a really good way to tell if somebody is up to no good or not. It's been my experience that ignoring social boundaries is a pretty reliable preassault indicator.

Finally, If I'm already in a position where I'm not feeling comfortable and you reach for me or grab for me or whatever it's on. That is something I would take really seriously. If the guy had time to grab you and frisk you you had time to react.

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Retired Career Security Guard

You clearly are not projecting a correct persona to support your ‘handle’ on this site. Presumably not correct for your line of work either. Most men don’t need guidance about letting a stranger, big enough to throw you over his shoulder and walk off with you, to touch you.

Go back to basics about , stop wearing gun until you figure it out and get back to us when you’ve tested the changes.

Regards, Porkie

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Least expected, you’re elected

There is some truth to this. If you can't defend your gun you should not be carrying it

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Retired Career Security Guard

A good example of of why not to open carry, makes it even easier for a gun grab.

Never let anyone get within your reaction gap which is about 4 feet and never turn your back on someone close when carrying.
You can usually see a gun grab attempt coming if you watch peoples eyes. They will look at your waist line to try and visually locate it before they strike. If someone grabs you like that, the best defense is to gouge their eyes out. Your lucky.

In my humble opinion, I believe that there are people who are fast enough to get almost anyone's gun. We may think we are fast enough and alert enough, but I know of at least one incident where it's hard to believe how fast these guys were. Many years ago, the owner of a large plumbing supply business in the Bronx (that's NY :-))), let everyone know (for years) that he carried (concealed and legally). One morning, while driving out of his supply yard to go on an errand, two guys pulled open his (unlocked) car door while it was moving into the busy street. They yanked him out and grabbed his gun AND his wallet. They were gone and never caught. You may think you are fast and smart, but concealed (or not), you are also a TARGET. There is always someone faster...
IMHO of course,
J.

Like just about everything else in life, there are no absolutes or guarantees here, but it's possible to reduce the probability of an attempted gun grab and, if one occurs, that it's successful. Although I try to be reasonably alert, I recognize - and I think that anyone who's really honest with themselves will also recognize - that it's just not possible 100% of the time. So, in addition I (1) never open carry even though it's fully legal here and (arguably) acceptable, (2) make some effort to avoid printing - the average person likely wouldn't notice anyway, but a potential gun grabber probably would, and (3) using a retention holster. I've thought about, but rejected, carrying a gun with a safety because a thief might waste time figuring out how to turn it off, and even going to co-called "Israeli carry" - full magazine but empty chamber - which would really slow a thief down. While both of those options would further reduce the risk of a grabbed gun being used against me, they would, IMHO, unacceptably raise the risk of other unwanted outcomes.

This is not really about "fast". If you let yourself get "jumped" by someone you already lost. If the attacker wanted to kill the OP he would be dead by now.

Consider that some atackers, if they want your gun, will have no problems whatsoever retrieving it from your corpse after killing you.

The real weapon is between your ears. Guns are just tools.

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Expect the unexpected

I've seen a number of gun takeaways captured on surveillance footage and the thought is scary. For one, I never open-carry and I do my best to carry totally concealed. I always try to know who is around me, particularly while standing in a cash register line with strangers behind me. I tend to angle my body a bit so that my left side is approximately facing the guy behind me (I carry on the right side) making it more difficult for that person to attempt a sudden takeaway.

This is the element that's hard to plan for, in my opinion. Attacks often come from ambush. In your case, you got complacent. Very often it comes from around a corner or when a person is distracted opening a car door or some other kind of transition point.

As said above, nobody can be on high alert 100% of the time.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

This is more common than thought. And unfortunately, some here are jumping to defend their egos and place blame and deny it could happen to them, rather than take the lesson at face value.

You are exactly correct. And everyone here blaming me are vulnerable to have it happen to them. There are no exceptions.

Thinking that because you might be carrying a gun makes you invincible is utterly ridiculous. If that was the case, why would cops ever get shot? In fact, I've seen stories of cops ambushed and shot with their own gun. COPS !!

IMPD officer shot with his own gun during incident

Baltimore Officer Killed With Own Gun: New Details Emerge

Fort Myers Police Officer shot by suspect with his own gun

I will say that there's no one at this forum who could have done any differently even though from the sidelines, they think otherwise. As I said, it happened in less than 2 seconds.

A wise person will read my account and learn from it.
I didn't post it to get an earful of how stupid I am or that I should re consider carrying. As the evidence above clearly shows, it could happen to ANYONE.

As far as suggestions that I reconsider carrying.....tell that to the cops who have had it happen to them. The stories are plentiful....just search YouTube.

You don't "Let" yourself get jumped.

It's called an AMBUSH, and many cops are dead because of it.
You are not exempt and it could happen to you at any time.

For your information. Most of the time I don't even carry.

Edit. Please give me your definition of "ambush".

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Expect the unexpected

It's not for me to comment on the OP's situation or what he did or didn't do correctly. Opinions are like, well, you know. But here's my 2 cents on how I would try to defeat the situation.

First, I would not be in a place where I knew bad actors were frequently there. If it's job related, I would find another one. No job is worth getting hurt or killed over.

Second, I've recently started carrying OC spray as part of my EDC. In a situation like the OP encountered, it may have been possible, and certainly would have been appropriate, to spray the guy in the face. No one except family or close friends has the right to lay hands on my without my permission. So some non-lethal but effective response can handle that situation usually, or at least long enough for you to get distance and draw to prevent a follow-up attack.

I was not carrying that day either.

I don't wish it on anyone, but people are ambushed all the time.
Even cops. See post below.

When you get ambushed, you'll know (if you survive)

I already got ambushed. I'm still here.

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Expect the unexpected

My comment on your reply.......

Agreed. As soon as I felt the threat was unmanageable I stopped working there. TBH, name a residential or business place that is always free of criminal element. It's nearly impossible. If you could run a criminal background check on everyone where you are going....maybe? Criminals are all around. Everywhere you go. You will never be able to completely avoid the "bad element".

I do often carry OC spray.

This incident occurred in an apartment complex. People were around. When someone approaches you, seriously, at what point do you use the OC spray or physically attack the person?
Watch the next time you are out and tell me no one gets within 3 feet of you. Realize that if you mistakenly OC spray or attack someone, you could be facing jail time if they don't actually attack you and there are witnesses. it could be called assault.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you right here it's not as easy a decision to make as you like to think.

I'm telling EVERYONE who has not experienced something like this that it is nowhere as easy a situation to deal with as you think from the comfort of your keyboard.

In a way, I'm glad that it happened, As a result, I'm probably that much closer to being prepared for it next time than you.

We learn from experience. This was a learning experience for me.

The ONLY thing I can think of is to be keenly aware of everyone around you and keep distance.

Did i get complacent, or did the perp do an excellent job over several months of convincing conversation?

Perhaps both.

Sometimes in life, a person you completely trust can or will betray you. Ask the millions of divorce lawyers.

Perhaps I was actually far more alert than anyone here wants to give credit...since for whatever reason, I decided NOT to carry that day and I'm here to tell the story.

Maybe others here who say I messed up, and who had been armed, wouldn't have survived? No telling.

Like I said, the guy was about 230 and built like a bouncer.
He probably was a bouncer for that matter.

Congrats.

Do tell.

Don't you want others to learn from your mistakes?
You're not afraid of being told you were not prepared....are you?

I think you want to reread my comment. I didn't say you should spray everyone that gets within 3 feet of you. I said that I would spray anyone who laid hands on my without my permission unless they were family or friends. Big difference.

Any while it's true that there are criminal elements everywhere, I think it's pretty obvious to most people whether the place they're in is frequented by a bad element (as you yourself noted), versus an area that's going to be primarily civilized people.

Fine, but just know that someone could ambush you and knock you out cold....and you would never know what hit you.

What I'm saying is that you won't always have the luxury of knowing someone is about to lay their hands on you. as was the case in my situation. It was unexpected.

People get ambushed, killed, robbed at Walmart everyday.
Do you consider that a bad element place? Are you always on high alert when in Walmart?

People seem to be taking pot shots at you. Not me. Life's a mix of circumstances (good and bad), awareness (good and bad), and plain old luck (good and bad). You came through your event unscathed, learned some lessons from it, and are trying to pass the info on. OK.

One lesson my may want to add to your list... You said in your OP you knew the guy had a violent past. Never trust a known sociopath, no matter how nice they may seem. They're playing the long game and you're probably their intended victim.

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Vegan by proxy.

I wasn't ambushed alone. That's all I have to say.

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Expect the unexpected

Does that include those of us who did do something differently and did keep our guns?

I'm sorry mister but you did let yourself get jumped.

What you describe was not an ambush. What you're describing is you failing to maintain situational awareness and to enforce your Reaction Gap.

I would like to respectfully suggest that you look around your area and see if there any trainers that offer classes in managing unknown contacts. I think you would benefit.

Are you familiar at all with pre assault indicators? There's a really good video on YouTube by Massad Ayoob called Danger Signs you might want to give it a look.

I most assuredly do. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night


I most assuredly am. Especially after about 9 O'Clock at night.

Walmart is what is known as a "Watering Hole". A watering hole is a place were predators gather because they know prey goes there. Street Rats go to Walmart literally looking for people to rob


You're not "Here to tell the story" because of anything you did you're "Here to tell the story" because he let you go.

See, this is where some training in managing unknown contacts would really be beneficial. To answer your question, you use OC spray or attack the person when you can articulate a very specific action on the part of the other person that would cause any reasonable person to believe that their life was in danger or they were in danger of being seriously injured.

FROM EXPERIENCE, I'm telling you it's not that hard to figure out

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Retired Career Security Guard

Nobody can maintain 100% full-alert status 100% of the time. Of course, that's a bit different than being aware of your environment, who's near you, what they're doing, etc. It's Condition Orange/Red vs. Condition Yellow, in Jeff Cooper-speak.

Of course, nobody is infallible. Even trained teams of bodyguards can miss something. The assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, protected by his Secret Service detail, is one example of that.

That's why those of us who carry guns for self protection do so, for those times when we can't avoid a life threatening situation.

And sometimes, even if we do everything right, it can still end badly.

So I do my best to be aware of my surroundings and avoid potentially sketchy situations. I keep my guns concealed. I've learned some basic empty-hand self defense techniques and weapon retention skills. It's never happened to me, even when I worked as an armed guard carrying openly, but I know it's a possibility.

Just my opinion.

First off, I want to thank the OP for having the courage to admit a mistake and open this discussion so we can all learn from it. Anyone can be overpowered. We try hard not to be surprised. But that is the definition of an ambush.
A lot of cops are indeed shot with their own or a partner's snatched gun. Security holsters can help but if a perp can't get your gun out, neither can you.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

ok. thanks
But know that your style could likely discourage others from sharing their experiences with us. There is no need to attack or insult the messenger.

Thank you.

I REALLY appreciate your kind words. Rare so far.

I believe I learned from that mistake.
Still, no matter how aware I am I realize that it is not possible to be 100%, 100% of the time. That was a moment I will not forget.

I also want to throw out there that it is possible that there could be people practicing to do this...just as people practice drawing a firearm or marksmanship.

The guy did it so fast that I am not certain he has not done it before.

Most likely has, a lot of times. Being able to do a quick frisk is sort of basic training in the 'hood.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

There's a difference between attacking and disagreeing.

I mean, with all due respect you act like you're the only person this has happened to. It's happened to me more than once and I'm still here AND I still have my gun.

I mean I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but you made some mistakes which indicate to me that you have very little training.

It's hard to even tell for sure what happened because there's a lot of gaps in your story. What were you doing for a living that had you in that apartment building several times? What were you doing that gave you time to hang out and talk to this thug while you were at work? What allowed you to make decision not to go back to work anymore? Do you deliver pizzas? Are you a cable installer? Do you do maintenance for the apartment company?

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Retired Career Security Guard

To OP that's odd behavior for someone to do. He ether knew you carried a firearm or seen you printing at some point. You handled it well, I know I would have broke his nose.

Variation on the 21ft rule.......... no way you can keep everyone outside a 21 ft circle.... things you can do..... but not things you can do all the time.


Did he trap your arms against your body??????

Why God gave you feet and knees!

lol.

No, IIRC, he took a few steps forward as though he was going past me then in less than 2 seconds reached under my arms and around my waist.

Seriously, it was that fast. Blink of an eye.

No matter what anyone says in this thread, I don't think anyone could have done any different. The guy was smooth and like I said, I'm thinking he's done this before.

Could I have fought him? Yeah. But we were on the 4th floor on the balcony and he was like 230 bouncer type def muscular enough to lift me over the edge. A 40 ft drop.

Had I hit him it would have been "ON" and one or both of us would have been hurt or worse. Was it worth it to go that route? The outcome was no harm to me, no loss of my weapon, lesson learned. Looking back, the ONLY things I could have done to prevent this is to not have gone there, avoid this guy completely or always keep distance and when he first stepped forward, I could have stepped back....but again you have less than 2 seconds.

There was absolutely ZERO time to use OC spray or anything.
LESS than 2 SECONDS.

It's like some of the folks here saying I was basically asking for it, but I would bet $100 cash that I could tap out any of them with a blind sucker punch with no problem.

I had had conversations with this guy over months. he talked about his kids, wife and all the normal things people talk about.
So when he did this, I was completely taken off guard. It would be the equivalent of having someone at work do it, then make light of it. Has no one ever known someone who was an ex felon? Or someone who has been in trouble with the law? You can still have friends or family like that.

It's not always possible to know who will do what.

For my part, since then I stay clear of people I perceive as dangerous or psyco. The only reason I was there was because of work. Skilled technician work.

LOL..... should have given him a big wet kiss on the lips........ bet that would have backed him off!!!

If in doubt...... open hand slap to both ears.

In my introduction to formalized firearms training with NYPD during the 1960s, the instructors told us that one in five police officers shot with a handgun is shot with his own or his partner's gun. But, things were a bit different then: retention holsters usually were equipped with a single strap held in place by a snap fastener, holsters cannot retain revolvers as well as holsters made for semi-autos. Police now receive handgun retention training, or at least they should be, Today's holsters are far stronger than what was offered fifty years ago.

That reminded me of an article I read several years ago, probably back in the 90s. It described an incident where a police officer got knocked unconscious. He was wearing a Level III retention holster. Witnesses reportedly said that the attacker tried several times to get the officer's gun out of the holster, but couldn't, at one point lifting the officer's body off the ground.

Even better, do it with cupped hands.

ArmednDangerous On that rare occasion your not arms think about how you carry a knife or even a back up knife if legal or a a tactical pen like maybe under a watch band or wrist band . Don't want tactical make it a basic plastic bic with no cap . My flash light has scalloped edges on both ends and is just a bit longer then my hand and will peal a large chuck of tissue loss and if hand to hand go for the eyes and ears . If you can get a hand near an eye ball push and if you can also grab an ear it will make for some interesting screaming . I hung with a wilder crowd when young and I know a couple of these tricks that work well with doing major damage .

If I were an unknown to you, a very bad hombre..
In a casual setting with general daily objects
within reach and I know your packing.

I will get your gun...

I don't know how many others have noticed this besides myself, but I have seen more than a few folks over the years who were doing concealed carry but being pretty obvious about it, either through poor behavior habits or carelessness. If others can tell you're packing, then you are NOT carrying concealed.

My wife had to quietly approach another diner at a restaurant she was at because he was carrying in the small of his back - but because he was leaning forward the weapon was fully exposed and even if he tried to rise up in a non-emergent situation the pistol's grip would have caught on the back of the chair literally locking the chair onto his back. When she leaned over to whisper into his ear, he apparently learned that he wasn't all that good looking after all!

You can carry back ups to back ups till the cows come home. Being alert to what’s going on around you is a better defense. Don’t put yourself in neighborhoods or situations that could turn into a problem. You are dealing with people that kill for tennis shoes. They won’t hesitate to cave your head in with a brick. You can’t stay far enough from these people. They say that a person 21 feet will knife you before you shoot him. I think both participants would have to be experts but that’s close enough. The bad guy could grab you instead of knife you. Remember you don’t know he’s coming. Personally I think these SD classes should spend more time on awareness. Most people you could kill with a base fiddle because they are playing with phone or have earphones. They don’t look before they cross the street.

I believe that in spite of some posters here saying otherwise, you are correct. If someone knows you are carrying concealed, and they want your gun bad enough....you are going to lose it no matter what you may have done 'differently'

Situational awareness becomes paramount. But even 100% on full alert, anyone can become a victim. Even John Correia.

Thanks to the OP for sharing. Should give us all a warning and something to think about.

A couple of points here. Prison surveilance video has shown many instances of inmates practicing disarming techniques. The other point is from a Weapon Retention/Disarming Instructor class. A couple of folks had paddle holsters. They frequently lost both the firearm and holster.