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Old 06-19-2020, 06:48 AM
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Default Clearing Jammed Revolvers - Mas AYOOB

Permission granted by author, Old periodical now OOB

Copyrighted Material - Guns and Survival 1988 - "Clearing Jammed Revolvers" by Massad AYOOB

(I wrote to Mr AYOOB a week ago requesting permission to use his article. I have not received a reply to date. Should permission not be given, I will remove the article straight away. I believed the importance of this information was imperative for those who CCW Revolvers. I hope this Thread complies).

How would you fix a jammed revolver in a Self Defence (defense) situation? I believe there's lot to talk about from this article.

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Old 06-19-2020, 08:39 AM
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This is the method I practice (lightly...full-force practice can damage your gun):

The Revolver Malfunction Drill

Another point: For those of us with snubs, you can actually pull the extractor star farther than you might think, in the event you end up with a case under the star.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:51 PM
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To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam, which is exactly why I like them. I have had light primer strikes, but I wouldn't carry a revolver that suffered from light strikes. I also occasionally have problems counting to six, but it's probably too late in life to learn advanced mathematics.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadcutter1 View Post
To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam
Good for you, but just because you've never had a revolver jam doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that it won't happen to you.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:24 PM
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I went to work for an employer that still had revolvers. We shot them a lot. Having had revolvers fail to function as intended, I found the link ContinentalOp posted a bit off.

Trigger cannot be pulled: Reach up, put a thumb on the hammer spur and YANK! There are numerous reasons why this may happen. Cocking the hammer cures most of them.

One failure it won't cure is a bullet stuck between cylinder and forcing cone. If it doesn't cure your problem, go to Plan B, possibly followed by Plan C. You do have a Plan B don't you? That might include a keychain with a dejammer rod (about 5/16 inch) that you can use on both revolvers and semi-autos to clear bore/chamber obstructions. Don't have a hammer spur? Plan B. Hammer won't move? Plan B.

Fired cases won't eject with your thumb? Whack the ejector rod with your palm or any available solid object (wall, door etc).

Beating on the gun like the article suggests may not work and there's no warranty that if you do get it reloaded, it'll function. Plan B.

I'm trying not to be unjustly negative, but the fact is that the efforts take time. Not using time to your best advantage is (beside use of cover) probably the greatest problem when facing a threat. Napoleon: "Ask me for anything but time!"

About post #1: Copyright on the material posted belongs to whoever published it, NOT the author. Some sources freely grant reproduction permission. Others don't.

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Old 06-19-2020, 07:38 PM
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Valid points. I will add that if you're not familiar with Grant Cunningham, before he retired from gunsmithing a few years ago he was considered one of the top revolversmiths around. He also helped design the Kimber K6S. I would think he'd know a thing or two about getting a gun back into action.

And he did mention that if something didn't work, like a bullet stuck in the cylinder gap, you'd better have a Plan B.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:15 PM
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Moo Moo, I never received a letter from you. I did, however, find your PM of June 12 when I logged in tonight.

The publisher, Harris Publications, went out of business a few years ago. I don't know who if anyone owns the rights to older articles there. During that period I only sold "first North American serial rights," which allowed me to retain the right to reprint.

Fine with me. As to Harris, we often got requests to copy articles for training purposes, and the policy was to grant permission so long as nothing in the articles was changed or deleted, and credit was given to both publication and author. Distributing it as you did would have been fine. I would personally consider that policy still in effect.

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Old 06-20-2020, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by wadcutter1 View Post
To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam, which is exactly why I like them. I have had light primer strikes, but I wouldn't carry a revolver that suffered from light strikes. I also occasionally have problems counting to six, but it's probably too late in life to learn advanced mathematics.
If you never had a revo jam, I would say you dont shoot a whole lot.
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:53 AM
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I have had revolver jams. On S&W revolvers, the ejector rod can unscrew and make opening the cylinder a serious challenge. A tight barrel-cylinder gap can cause a tie up if debris gets caught between the barrel and cylinder. Debris under the extractor star can make it hard to close a cylinder and prevent the cylinder from rotating. These are the failures I have experienced thus far, I know other failures are possible.
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Old 06-20-2020, 07:45 AM
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I have shot revolvers pretty much exclusively for many years, and I have had many of the above issues happen at one time or another. All of these issues have been during matches when the round count get up to 80 or 100 rounds or so, even then its pretty rare.

It's my understanding that most encounters a civilian who ccw's would face has a pretty low round count. I am pretty confident that I can get a cylinder full off without issues.

I maintain my guns, a big part is keeping them clean, and every time the're cleaned all screws and the ejector rod are checked for tightness. Every night when they are removed from the holster they are wiped down and looked over. Also, all my ccw revolvers are cut for moonclips so that eliminates the old case slipped under the ejector star issue.

I have way more confidence in my revolvers than I ever would a semi.

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Old 06-20-2020, 10:47 AM
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Nothng fails if it sits in the safe or makes it to the flat range for 100rds. Everything fails if you put it thru tough field tests. What I do know, revo failure is pretty much a terminal event in a fight.
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:59 PM
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I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.
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Old 06-20-2020, 04:59 PM
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While it's possible for a mechanical problem to arise with a DA revolver (being machines, after all) ...

... I've usually noticed, and have been told (as an armorer), that as long as a revolver is well maintained (think periodic inspections, as might be done by an armorer); the shooter doesn't short-stroke the trigger; the shooter uses good quality major American factory ammunition; the revolver is cleaned and inspected if unintentionally dropped into loose sand, dirt or standing water (or other contaminant); the revolver isn't improperly "cleaned" (wide ranging topic), that a revolver is a pretty reliable handgun, all things considered.

Not as susceptible to shooter-induced grip issues, nor does it rely upon the condition of a magazine spring, magazine feed lips, magazine seating, nor a recoil spring/recoil spring assembly.

To be fair, the same owner/shooter penchant for "modifications & improvements" as semiauto pistols may experience can potentially cause problems to occur with revolvers.

Revolvers, especially service revolvers used in LE, were often considered prime candidates for daily neglect and being subjected to abusive conditions. In older days blued revolvers left in leather holsters could develop rust. In my younger LE days it wasn't uncommon to see guys keep an extra gym towel in their lockers, so they could wipe down their blued and stainless revolvers after working shifts in wet weather, leaving them on a locker shelf, and then hang their leather gear up to dry out for the next shift.

Some didn't appear to take such simple precautions, though, as every now and then a S&W revolver or Colt Python would require some attention by the revolver armorer in order for it to be able fire and function for the qual course.

Revolvers may be susceptible to damage caused by being dropped, though. An example would be one dropped onto the right side of the revolver, specifically the cylinder, which could tweak the yoke (or crane, if you'd rather).
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:02 PM
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I have recollections of seeing a bunch of guns from a major city force after the owners retired and they wanted them "prettied up" as they'd had to buy them originally. Most spent about a week soaking in kerosene before the cylinders would open. Now some came from the traffic division, but certainly not all.

Let's not talk about removing the ammunition from the chambers.

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Old 06-20-2020, 06:09 PM
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FROM fLAGMAN 1776: " My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder:
Now I had one of those lately. Bullet lodged in forcing cone, and did not clear the brass. Cylinder locked up tighter then "Dicks's Hat band". Could not cock the hammer, etc etc. I cleared the problem with serious effort, and replaced a few parts. Piece now back working well.
Have not read the referenced article, does it cover such a situation?
If not, what is the best way to proceed. With a rod, is it possible to push the bullet back into the case far enough for the cylinder to open?
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:26 PM
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Depending upon bullet weight and cylinder length, it might not have to enter the case to free the cylinder up. It might help to hold the firearm vertically to help align bullet & case. If you're correct and the base of the bullet is still in the case, should be a snap to push the bullet back into the case.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
...

Let's not talk about removing the ammunition from the chambers.

You've probably heard apocryphal stories of someone in the Old West keeping paper "burying money" rolled up in one of their revolver cylinder charge holes, right? Well ...

One morning we got to see some crusty senior guy blow a $100 bill to hell and gone during a range qual, turning it to confetti. Apparently, he'd forgotten to remove a rolled up bill from his service Python's barrel, where he'd hidden it. Guess it worked so well as a hidden stash spot that he'd forgotten about it, and it seemingly didn't dawn on him what had created all that confetti when he fired that first round ... for a moment.

Not someone who usually got worked up about things, but he was funny to watch that day on the range.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:12 PM
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Yes, after the drill, someone else came up with a range rod which I inserted down the barrel and bumped it against something hard and was able to push the lead swc back enough to open the cylinder.
Clearing your primary revolver under fire should probably be Plan B. A NY Reload (resorting to a back up gun) would be preferable in a gunfight.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:08 AM
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How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
Read the posts and the articles. They explain it.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:15 PM
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Yes, after the drill, someone else came up with a range rod which I inserted down the barrel and bumped it against something hard and was able to push the lead swc back enough to open the cylinder.
Clearing your primary revolver under fire should probably be Plan B. A NY Reload (resorting to a back up gun) would be preferable in a gunfight.
Thanks for that...never dawned on me to try and push bullet back into brass,,,duh!!! Of course, if it dosen't move, big trouble...OK
back to normal ...thanks again
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:53 PM
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I have seen the loose ejector rod situation on at least two occasions, a squib more than once and high primers as well as dirt or degree under the ejector star. On two occasions, I saw a damaged firing pin bushing that was not seated where it was supposed to be. When fired, the primer backed out into the hole where the bushing is and hung up the revolver. In both cases, the bushing needed replacement and in one case the S&W could not be fixed because the hole for the bushing was elongated.That was my .357 Mtn Gun. I had purchased it a a very good price and had not fired it in the several years that I owned it. The first time to the range, this happened on each shot. I had to force the cylinder opened. It could not be repaired and had to have the frame replaced.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:01 PM
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When I started around 1976, I could sign out a PD owned Victory model with 6 mismatched lead round nosed cartridges. It was so loose it rattled when shaken. It spit lead pretty badly.
We were supposed to be able to buy our own M66s through the PD. In the meanwhile, I carried my pristine M19 with hot 110 gr SuperVels. Life was good. They shot good for me.
I found a M66 brand new at the LGS and bought it. The first time I fired it, every one of the SuperVels primers flowed back around the firing pin, locking the hammer down until jiggled free. I found another load to carry after that. Our last revolver load was issued Silvertips.

Another thing I learned from matches... every round of duty ammo was chambered in the duty gun before carry... loaders too.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:15 PM
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I suppose I should mention how a bone dry aluminum yoke in some of the PD/Sc/Ti wheelguns might lend itself to a functioning problem.

One of our guys brought me his PD snub one morning at our range, complaining that he'd had to resort to turning the cylinder by hand to finish his qual course-of-fire because the trigger had become too hard to pull. Well, that ain't right.

I checked the snub and confirmed the DA trigger pull was horrendous and the cylinder couldn't be turned via trigger pull. I also opened the cylinder and found that the cylinder wouldn't spin. At all. It was very stiff to even turn by hand. (The trigger pull was fine without the cylinder closed and the hand not having to engage the ratchets.)

Removing the cylinder I noticed the yoke was very dirty and the two bearing surfaces were bone dry. I cleaned and re-lubricated the yoke and then reassembled the revolver. The cylinder spun easily and freely, as intended, and the DA trigger & cylinder carry-up was fine.

I showed the owner how to check for normal cylinder spin, and how to remove the cylinder to wipe the yoke barrel and add a couple drops to the yoke bearing surfaces if the cylinder started to feel sluggish. (I emphasized to him to avoid over-tightening the yoke screw, too, to avoid damaging the frame.)

Then I told him to go back downrange and either shoot the whole course-of-fire again, normally, or at least run a few cylinder loads through the snub to satisfy himself that he could stake his life on the gun running normally again (it was a secondary duty-weapon for him in his assignment).

FWIW, while I've not had this occur to my own J-frames that have steel yokes, I have found that the aluminum yokes in my pair of M&P 340's do seem to "dry out" sooner than my snubs that have steel yokes. The surface texture and finish of the aluminum yokes seem a bit less smooth than the steel ones, too.

I periodically check the ability of my cylinders to spin freely (cylinders open). If they start to seem as though they're slowing and not easily spinning freely as long as previously, I remove the cylinders and wipe down the yokes, and add a couple drops of lube to the yoke bearing surfaces, which always restores cylinder spin.

When I was working as a firearms instructor (before and after retirement) I was putting in a fair amount of frequent range work with my various snubs, especially my 642's and M&P 340's, and it was the aluminum yokes in the 340's that seemed to foul and lose lubrication - and the ability to freely & easily spin - sooner than in my 642's.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:30 PM
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I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.

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About post #1: Copyright on the material posted belongs to whoever published it, NOT the author.
That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:

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The publisher, Harris Publications, went out of business a few years ago. I don't know who if anyone owns the rights to older articles there. During that period I only sold "first North American serial rights," which allowed me to retain the right to reprint.
Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.


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Fine with me. As to Harris, we often got requests to copy articles for training purposes, and the policy was to grant permission so long as nothing in the articles was changed or deleted, and credit was given to both publication and author. Distributing it as you did would have been fine. I would personally consider that policy still in effect.
Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -
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and credit was given to both publication and author.
That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:49 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
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So, if Iím following this, youíre explaining to an author, thru a third party, about the authorís copyright, and disputing the authorís interpretation? #AskingForAFriend

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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.



That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:



Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.




Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -


That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by flagman1776 View Post
I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.
Though squibs disable any handgun. You wont have time to clear it with a range rod.
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
Seriously? Bullet jumps the crimp & ties up the cyl. Primer backs out & ties up the cyl. Grit gets between forcing cone & cyl, ties up cyl. During a reload a spent case falls under the ejector. All pretty much puts you out of a fight. Then there are things that break or bend.
AlSo anything that gets between cyl & lock during rotation is jambed up revo. Though that one might be cleared by just opening the cyl, maybe.
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