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Old 06-19-2020, 06:48 AM
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Default Clearing Jammed Revolvers - Mas AYOOB

Permission granted by author, Old periodical now OOB

Copyrighted Material - Guns and Survival 1988 - "Clearing Jammed Revolvers" by Massad AYOOB

(I wrote to Mr AYOOB a week ago requesting permission to use his article. I have not received a reply to date. Should permission not be given, I will remove the article straight away. I believed the importance of this information was imperative for those who CCW Revolvers. I hope this Thread complies).

How would you fix a jammed revolver in a Self Defence (defense) situation? I believe there's lot to talk about from this article.

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Old 06-19-2020, 08:39 AM
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This is the method I practice (lightly...full-force practice can damage your gun):

The Revolver Malfunction Drill

Another point: For those of us with snubs, you can actually pull the extractor star farther than you might think, in the event you end up with a case under the star.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:51 PM
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To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam, which is exactly why I like them. I have had light primer strikes, but I wouldn't carry a revolver that suffered from light strikes. I also occasionally have problems counting to six, but it's probably too late in life to learn advanced mathematics.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadcutter1 View Post
To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam
Good for you, but just because you've never had a revolver jam doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that it won't happen to you.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:24 PM
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I went to work for an employer that still had revolvers. We shot them a lot. Having had revolvers fail to function as intended, I found the link ContinentalOp posted a bit off.

Trigger cannot be pulled: Reach up, put a thumb on the hammer spur and YANK! There are numerous reasons why this may happen. Cocking the hammer cures most of them.

One failure it won't cure is a bullet stuck between cylinder and forcing cone. If it doesn't cure your problem, go to Plan B, possibly followed by Plan C. You do have a Plan B don't you? That might include a keychain with a dejammer rod (about 5/16 inch) that you can use on both revolvers and semi-autos to clear bore/chamber obstructions. Don't have a hammer spur? Plan B. Hammer won't move? Plan B.

Fired cases won't eject with your thumb? Whack the ejector rod with your palm or any available solid object (wall, door etc).

Beating on the gun like the article suggests may not work and there's no warranty that if you do get it reloaded, it'll function. Plan B.

I'm trying not to be unjustly negative, but the fact is that the efforts take time. Not using time to your best advantage is (beside use of cover) probably the greatest problem when facing a threat. Napoleon: "Ask me for anything but time!"

About post #1: Copyright on the material posted belongs to whoever published it, NOT the author. Some sources freely grant reproduction permission. Others don't.

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Old 06-19-2020, 07:38 PM
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Valid points. I will add that if you're not familiar with Grant Cunningham, before he retired from gunsmithing a few years ago he was considered one of the top revolversmiths around. He also helped design the Kimber K6S. I would think he'd know a thing or two about getting a gun back into action.

And he did mention that if something didn't work, like a bullet stuck in the cylinder gap, you'd better have a Plan B.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:15 PM
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Moo Moo, I never received a letter from you. I did, however, find your PM of June 12 when I logged in tonight.

The publisher, Harris Publications, went out of business a few years ago. I don't know who if anyone owns the rights to older articles there. During that period I only sold "first North American serial rights," which allowed me to retain the right to reprint.

Fine with me. As to Harris, we often got requests to copy articles for training purposes, and the policy was to grant permission so long as nothing in the articles was changed or deleted, and credit was given to both publication and author. Distributing it as you did would have been fine. I would personally consider that policy still in effect.

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Old 06-20-2020, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadcutter1 View Post
To be honest, this article seems a bit silly. I've never had a revolver jam, which is exactly why I like them. I have had light primer strikes, but I wouldn't carry a revolver that suffered from light strikes. I also occasionally have problems counting to six, but it's probably too late in life to learn advanced mathematics.
If you never had a revo jam, I would say you dont shoot a whole lot.
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:53 AM
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I have had revolver jams. On S&W revolvers, the ejector rod can unscrew and make opening the cylinder a serious challenge. A tight barrel-cylinder gap can cause a tie up if debris gets caught between the barrel and cylinder. Debris under the extractor star can make it hard to close a cylinder and prevent the cylinder from rotating. These are the failures I have experienced thus far, I know other failures are possible.
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Old 06-20-2020, 07:45 AM
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I have shot revolvers pretty much exclusively for many years, and I have had many of the above issues happen at one time or another. All of these issues have been during matches when the round count get up to 80 or 100 rounds or so, even then its pretty rare.

It's my understanding that most encounters a civilian who ccw's would face has a pretty low round count. I am pretty confident that I can get a cylinder full off without issues.

I maintain my guns, a big part is keeping them clean, and every time the're cleaned all screws and the ejector rod are checked for tightness. Every night when they are removed from the holster they are wiped down and looked over. Also, all my ccw revolvers are cut for moonclips so that eliminates the old case slipped under the ejector star issue.

I have way more confidence in my revolvers than I ever would a semi.

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Old 06-20-2020, 10:47 AM
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Nothng fails if it sits in the safe or makes it to the flat range for 100rds. Everything fails if you put it thru tough field tests. What I do know, revo failure is pretty much a terminal event in a fight.
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Old 06-20-2020, 12:59 PM
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I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.
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Old 06-20-2020, 04:59 PM
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While it's possible for a mechanical problem to arise with a DA revolver (being machines, after all) ...

... I've usually noticed, and have been told (as an armorer), that as long as a revolver is well maintained (think periodic inspections, as might be done by an armorer); the shooter doesn't short-stroke the trigger; the shooter uses good quality major American factory ammunition; the revolver is cleaned and inspected if unintentionally dropped into loose sand, dirt or standing water (or other contaminant); the revolver isn't improperly "cleaned" (wide ranging topic), that a revolver is a pretty reliable handgun, all things considered.

Not as susceptible to shooter-induced grip issues, nor does it rely upon the condition of a magazine spring, magazine feed lips, magazine seating, nor a recoil spring/recoil spring assembly.

To be fair, the same owner/shooter penchant for "modifications & improvements" as semiauto pistols may experience can potentially cause problems to occur with revolvers.

Revolvers, especially service revolvers used in LE, were often considered prime candidates for daily neglect and being subjected to abusive conditions. In older days blued revolvers left in leather holsters could develop rust. In my younger LE days it wasn't uncommon to see guys keep an extra gym towel in their lockers, so they could wipe down their blued and stainless revolvers after working shifts in wet weather, leaving them on a locker shelf, and then hang their leather gear up to dry out for the next shift.

Some didn't appear to take such simple precautions, though, as every now and then a S&W revolver or Colt Python would require some attention by the revolver armorer in order for it to be able fire and function for the qual course.

Revolvers may be susceptible to damage caused by being dropped, though. An example would be one dropped onto the right side of the revolver, specifically the cylinder, which could tweak the yoke (or crane, if you'd rather).
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:02 PM
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I have recollections of seeing a bunch of guns from a major city force after the owners retired and they wanted them "prettied up" as they'd had to buy them originally. Most spent about a week soaking in kerosene before the cylinders would open. Now some came from the traffic division, but certainly not all.

Let's not talk about removing the ammunition from the chambers.

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Old 06-20-2020, 06:09 PM
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FROM fLAGMAN 1776: " My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder:
Now I had one of those lately. Bullet lodged in forcing cone, and did not clear the brass. Cylinder locked up tighter then "Dicks's Hat band". Could not cock the hammer, etc etc. I cleared the problem with serious effort, and replaced a few parts. Piece now back working well.
Have not read the referenced article, does it cover such a situation?
If not, what is the best way to proceed. With a rod, is it possible to push the bullet back into the case far enough for the cylinder to open?
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Old 06-20-2020, 06:26 PM
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Depending upon bullet weight and cylinder length, it might not have to enter the case to free the cylinder up. It might help to hold the firearm vertically to help align bullet & case. If you're correct and the base of the bullet is still in the case, should be a snap to push the bullet back into the case.
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
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...

Let's not talk about removing the ammunition from the chambers.

You've probably heard apocryphal stories of someone in the Old West keeping paper "burying money" rolled up in one of their revolver cylinder charge holes, right? Well ...

One morning we got to see some crusty senior guy blow a $100 bill to hell and gone during a range qual, turning it to confetti. Apparently, he'd forgotten to remove a rolled up bill from his service Python's barrel, where he'd hidden it. Guess it worked so well as a hidden stash spot that he'd forgotten about it, and it seemingly didn't dawn on him what had created all that confetti when he fired that first round ... for a moment.

Not someone who usually got worked up about things, but he was funny to watch that day on the range.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:12 PM
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Yes, after the drill, someone else came up with a range rod which I inserted down the barrel and bumped it against something hard and was able to push the lead swc back enough to open the cylinder.
Clearing your primary revolver under fire should probably be Plan B. A NY Reload (resorting to a back up gun) would be preferable in a gunfight.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:08 AM
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How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
Read the posts and the articles. They explain it.
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Old 06-21-2020, 12:15 PM
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Yes, after the drill, someone else came up with a range rod which I inserted down the barrel and bumped it against something hard and was able to push the lead swc back enough to open the cylinder.
Clearing your primary revolver under fire should probably be Plan B. A NY Reload (resorting to a back up gun) would be preferable in a gunfight.
Thanks for that...never dawned on me to try and push bullet back into brass,,,duh!!! Of course, if it dosen't move, big trouble...OK
back to normal ...thanks again
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:53 PM
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I have seen the loose ejector rod situation on at least two occasions, a squib more than once and high primers as well as dirt or degree under the ejector star. On two occasions, I saw a damaged firing pin bushing that was not seated where it was supposed to be. When fired, the primer backed out into the hole where the bushing is and hung up the revolver. In both cases, the bushing needed replacement and in one case the S&W could not be fixed because the hole for the bushing was elongated.That was my .357 Mtn Gun. I had purchased it a a very good price and had not fired it in the several years that I owned it. The first time to the range, this happened on each shot. I had to force the cylinder opened. It could not be repaired and had to have the frame replaced.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:01 PM
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When I started around 1976, I could sign out a PD owned Victory model with 6 mismatched lead round nosed cartridges. It was so loose it rattled when shaken. It spit lead pretty badly.
We were supposed to be able to buy our own M66s through the PD. In the meanwhile, I carried my pristine M19 with hot 110 gr SuperVels. Life was good. They shot good for me.
I found a M66 brand new at the LGS and bought it. The first time I fired it, every one of the SuperVels primers flowed back around the firing pin, locking the hammer down until jiggled free. I found another load to carry after that. Our last revolver load was issued Silvertips.

Another thing I learned from matches... every round of duty ammo was chambered in the duty gun before carry... loaders too.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:15 PM
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I suppose I should mention how a bone dry aluminum yoke in some of the PD/Sc/Ti wheelguns might lend itself to a functioning problem.

One of our guys brought me his PD snub one morning at our range, complaining that he'd had to resort to turning the cylinder by hand to finish his qual course-of-fire because the trigger had become too hard to pull. Well, that ain't right.

I checked the snub and confirmed the DA trigger pull was horrendous and the cylinder couldn't be turned via trigger pull. I also opened the cylinder and found that the cylinder wouldn't spin. At all. It was very stiff to even turn by hand. (The trigger pull was fine without the cylinder closed and the hand not having to engage the ratchets.)

Removing the cylinder I noticed the yoke was very dirty and the two bearing surfaces were bone dry. I cleaned and re-lubricated the yoke and then reassembled the revolver. The cylinder spun easily and freely, as intended, and the DA trigger & cylinder carry-up was fine.

I showed the owner how to check for normal cylinder spin, and how to remove the cylinder to wipe the yoke barrel and add a couple drops to the yoke bearing surfaces if the cylinder started to feel sluggish. (I emphasized to him to avoid over-tightening the yoke screw, too, to avoid damaging the frame.)

Then I told him to go back downrange and either shoot the whole course-of-fire again, normally, or at least run a few cylinder loads through the snub to satisfy himself that he could stake his life on the gun running normally again (it was a secondary duty-weapon for him in his assignment).

FWIW, while I've not had this occur to my own J-frames that have steel yokes, I have found that the aluminum yokes in my pair of M&P 340's do seem to "dry out" sooner than my snubs that have steel yokes. The surface texture and finish of the aluminum yokes seem a bit less smooth than the steel ones, too.

I periodically check the ability of my cylinders to spin freely (cylinders open). If they start to seem as though they're slowing and not easily spinning freely as long as previously, I remove the cylinders and wipe down the yokes, and add a couple drops of lube to the yoke bearing surfaces, which always restores cylinder spin.

When I was working as a firearms instructor (before and after retirement) I was putting in a fair amount of frequent range work with my various snubs, especially my 642's and M&P 340's, and it was the aluminum yokes in the 340's that seemed to foul and lose lubrication - and the ability to freely & easily spin - sooner than in my 642's.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:30 PM
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I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.

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About post #1: Copyright on the material posted belongs to whoever published it, NOT the author.
That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:

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The publisher, Harris Publications, went out of business a few years ago. I don't know who if anyone owns the rights to older articles there. During that period I only sold "first North American serial rights," which allowed me to retain the right to reprint.
Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.


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Fine with me. As to Harris, we often got requests to copy articles for training purposes, and the policy was to grant permission so long as nothing in the articles was changed or deleted, and credit was given to both publication and author. Distributing it as you did would have been fine. I would personally consider that policy still in effect.
Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -
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and credit was given to both publication and author.
That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:49 PM
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So, if Iím following this, youíre explaining to an author, thru a third party, about the authorís copyright, and disputing the authorís interpretation? #AskingForAFriend

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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I read the posts. I understand many things but I am afraid the term "jam" is just too broad. But I'll go along with it just because I like the folks around this campfire.



That is technically incorrect. If you create a written "piece" the copyright attaches to it immediately and it is yours. If your written item is published by someone other than yourself then either the publisher has its own copyright or you, the author, can transfer your rights to the publisher. See what Mas says:



Exactly. Mas transferred XYZ rights to the publisher but retained ABC rights. If the publisher is out of business, and if nobody bought their assets, then Mas would be the sole owner of the copyright again.




Again, Mas is correct, except that legally he's probably the sole owner of the copyright at this point in time.

Specifically for this campfire - -


That's more or less the policy of the S&W Forum except I doubt that the moderators are going to insist on double credits unless it's spectacularly obvious.
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by flagman1776 View Post
I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.
Though squibs disable any handgun. You wont have time to clear it with a range rod.
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
How does a revolver jam? I used to shoot a lot more than I do now but I still shoot wheelguns and I still cannot figure out how one jams.

This doesn't count squib loads or dollar bills rolled up into a SAA cylinder. Squibs are not jams - they are disasters but quite different from some mechanical jam.
Seriously? Bullet jumps the crimp & ties up the cyl. Primer backs out & ties up the cyl. Grit gets between forcing cone & cyl, ties up cyl. During a reload a spent case falls under the ejector. All pretty much puts you out of a fight. Then there are things that break or bend.
AlSo anything that gets between cyl & lock during rotation is jambed up revo. Though that one might be cleared by just opening the cyl, maybe.
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:16 PM
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fredj338. You left out ejector rod lose (canít open cylinder), brass expanding from heated cylinder and wonít eject. Iím sure there are others, but these are two more Iíve seen at State and Fed Requals. Just adding some more items to your already great list. Just Sayen !

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Old 07-14-2020, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
If you never had a revo jam, I would say you dont shoot a whole lot.
And I would say B.S. We used to carry revolvers at my Dept ( wish we still did) I used to shoot IHMSA back when I used to have free time, I still hunt with a revolver when I get the time, and have been shooting them a lot for 40 years. I have had ONE jam with a revolver. The ejector rod backed out on an old 1917 S&W. a little fingernail polish and tightening fixed that. Bottom feeders are 100% better than they where 30-40 years ago, still there is more moving parts so more that can go wrong. So to make up this deficiency the auto crowd seems to have to point and cry O.M.G. at each and every possible revolver malfunction. As a side note I know of a Makarov and at least 2 Glocks all with 3-4 thousand rounds through em with nary a hiccup.
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Old 07-14-2020, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo Moo View Post
How would you fix a jammed revolver in a Self-Defense situation?
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Originally Posted by wadcutter1 View Post
To be honest, this article seems a bit silly.
With all due respect to Massad Ayoob, whom I deeply respect and follow online (and who has forgotten more about self-defense than I will ever know), the article is silly. The article may be fine for the range, but not for the middle of an active gun fight. Only one good point comes out of the article: Make damn sure ahead of time that your revolver will not jam... or else.
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:06 AM
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For other than LEO , who no longer carry revolvers, There is very little to no time to clear any firearm at the time and distance that a true self defense situation happens.

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Old 07-14-2020, 12:06 PM
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I think this was a great thread! Forgetting the article mentioned above, there were a lot of good comments. Just about everything that can go wrong with a revolver was mentioned including broken parts (which you canít fix in a self defense gunfight).
The thing to remember is that the vast majority of people who own revolvers think that if you put ammo in the gun and pull the trigger,it will go bang every time and will never have an issue with reloading.
Most everyone on this forum know of these potential problems and maintain/check their guns & ammo regularly.

Iím of the opinion that no one was being critical or slamming revolvers.
I have been shooting revolvers for over 50 years without ever having one jamming on my personal guns, but on my duty weapon, have had casings go under the ejector or swell in the cylinder and only come out part way requiring manually pulling it out by hand at State and Fed requals. It may have only happened 2 or 3 times over a dozen years, but it does happen.

I never heard about bullets moving forward in the casing due to recoil in a light J frame or checking primers that stuck out to far before joining here.There are other things I learned because of this and other forums.
Keep the comments/threads/post coming!!

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Old 07-14-2020, 05:16 PM
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I have fired revolvers A LOT (probably around 180,000 rounds) during the past 6 years, experiencing every type of jam that Mas writes about, except for the bullets moving forward in their cases and jamming the revolver. I have even had squibs once in a while using factory ammo.

I get far fewer squibs now because I now only use factory ammo. I am a lot more careful cleaning the revolvers after shooting than when I first took up revolvers, and I have tightened down the extractor rods so that they no longer back out. I do not use less than 13# rebound springs, so the trigger returns are always positive now.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:01 AM
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For other than LEO , who no longer carry revolvers, There is very little to no time to clear any firearm at the time and distance that a true self defense situation happens.
A lot depends on distance. If you have time tomreliad, you have time to clear most semi malfs. A revo generally needs ahop time to get up & running again. So while slightly more reliable, when they do fail, & they do, its a club. Which really sucks if your attacker has a gun.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fatcat3 View Post
And I would say B.S. We used to carry revolvers at my Dept ( wish we still did) I used to shoot IHMSA back when I used to have free time, I still hunt with a revolver when I get the time, and have been shooting them a lot for 40 years. I have had ONE jam with a revolver. The ejector rod backed out on an old 1917 S&W. a little fingernail polish and tightening fixed that. Bottom feeders are 100% better than they where 30-40 years ago, still there is more moving parts so more that can go wrong. So to make up this deficiency the auto crowd seems to have to point and cry O.M.G. at each and every possible revolver malfunction. As a side note I know of a Makarov and at least 2 Glocks all with 3-4 thousand rounds through em with nary a hiccup.
Well first, you had a jam so not bs. I have been shooting for a bit longer than you, all kinds of revo, all kinds of co,petition & hunting. If anyone tells me they never had a failure then I can only say they arent putting a lot of rds downrange. I can fix a type 3 in a semi in 3-4sec. A jamb in a revo is game over.
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Old 07-15-2020, 11:37 AM
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Default Interesting thread but...

Being a little older I don't shoot as much competition as I used to and I was never particularly good at the various games, but I enjoyed them.

Bullseye, PPC, IDPA were what I did. Still do a little PPC in a modified club match (no 50 yard stage).

What I will say is this: While shooting the above I saw scores of malfunctions with semi-auto pistols. And very few with revolvers.

Granted, particularly in IDPA the semi-auto pistols greatly outnumbered the revolvers, so naturally there were many more opportunities for malfunctions.

That being said, I trust a revolver over a semi to work when the chips are down. And as a civilian, that means basically one cylinder full in most cases.

I'm sure a new, well maintained Glock 19 is most unlikely to fail, but I put my faith in this Model 60 for the time being. Or its big brother, a K-frame Model 13. I practice with these regularly, clean them when I'm done and use factory ammo.

I can't remember when I last had a problem with either of them, other than with my sometimes deficient marksmanship!
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:24 PM
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Want to maximize the potential for normal functioning of a DA revolver?

Learn to run a DA trigger without short-stroking it and compromising trigger recovery.

Inspect each cartridge before loading it into the revolver, looking for manufacturing defects like high primers, improperly sized or mangled cases & case mouths (crimp), bullets seated too deeply or not deeply enough, etc.

Practice proper cleaning practices of the revolver, and especially confirm the cylinder spins freely; the charge holes are clean; no debris has gathered under the extractor star; and the ejector rod hasn't become loose.

In other words, work to mitigate potential problems that might be related to the shooter's operation of the revolver, or inattention on the part of the shooter.

Did I mention not short-stroking the DA trigger's recovery?
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
A lot depends on distance. If you have time tomreliad, you have time to clear most semi malfs. A revo generally needs ahop time to get up & running again. So while slightly more reliable, when they do fail, & they do, its a club. Which really sucks if your attacker has a gun.
And the specific situation matters as well. There are numerous videos online showing people successful clearing sim gun malfunctions during FOF training at close-quarters, in the clinch, on the ground and even fighting inside the confines of a vehicle. Not easy to do and possibly extremely problematic in many real world defense scenarios, but itís not necessarily the automatic death sentence as many make it out to be.
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:47 PM
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Good stuff. I personally have never had a clean revolver in good working order jam in 58 years of shooting. The fastest solution is to draw another revolver. My normal carry guns are two K-Frames, one 4" Model 65-1, one 2" Model 12-2.

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Old 07-28-2020, 06:09 PM
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So, if Iím following this, youíre explaining to an author, thru a third party, about the authorís copyright, and disputing the authorís interpretation? #AskingForAFriend
As a follow up, and please remember that not everyone on here is a lawyer but everyone on here is a shooter, the copyright rules are fairly simple. So, unless Cajun Lawyer or any other lawyer on here wants to dispute my legal opinion, here goes:

Item 1. If you write something, the copyright is yours.

Item 2. If you are hired to write something the article is a "work for hire" and the copyright would ordinarily belong to the buyer, not the author.

Item 3. If you sell something that you write, ordinarily the copyright transfers to the buyer, unless you make other arrangements.

Item 4. If you sell something that you have written, like an article sold to a magazine, and the publisher agrees that the copyright did not transfer, then under normal circumstances a publisher should note that fact, as in "The copyrights to this article belong to the author".

Item 5. If you give an article to a magazine for publication you can certainly request that the publisher lets you retain the copyright. That occurs here and there in certain types of publications where readers "contribute" but do not sell their work. It happened just this past month in the Texas State Rifle Association's magazine and they made it perfectly clear that the author retained the copyright.

Item 6. If you sell an article and retain limited copyrights, like USA only, or similar, then the copyrights are owned by you for that purpose or "place" but the buyer owns the copyrights for every other "place".

Item 7. This is the only tricky item. If you sell an article to a magazine and it goes out of business and there is no successor entity and you did not retain a copyright interest I have to presume (I am not going to do the research for this but I know whom to ask so I'll get back to y'all on this) that all of the defunct magazine's articles are in the public domain. I don't think that reversionary copyright interests exist. But I shall find out. In the present case, if the author retained North American copyrights then he still owns that and the article is not in the public domain.

If you think that I was disputing Massad Ayoob's understanding of his copyright interests please tell me where I did that because I do not think that that happened.
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Old 08-02-2020, 12:45 PM
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While it's possible for a mechanical problem to arise with a DA revolver (being machines, after all) ...

Revolvers, especially service revolvers used in LE, were often considered prime candidates for daily neglect and being subjected to abusive conditions. In older days blued revolvers left in leather holsters could develop rust.
Some didn't appear to take such simple precautions, though, as every now and then a S&W revolver or Colt Python would require some attention by the revolver armorer in order for it to be able fire and function for the qual course.
A buddy of mine was then a part-timer in a rural town in Northern Massachusetts. On qualification day, Officer Joe Friendly (name changed to protect the guilty) tried to draw his issue 4" M10 from his leather holster. When the dust settled, it was determined 'ole Joe had planted a 158 gr RNL in the dirt next to his toe. The gun was still in what remained of the holster though it now had a vent flap bottom. The R. O. cleared the range.

It seems the gun had been on duty since the previous qualification and hadn't been out of the holster. The remaining cartridges had to removed from the cylinder with tools. The 12 cartridges in his drop boxes were so green none would chamber.

By the time Joe's revolver was fuctional, everyone else had qualified and someone had made a coffee run. There was a crowd. Was anyone manning dispatch? Joe qualified... alone. The R. O. used the patrol unit's P. A. to give range commands from the parking lot with everyone behind cover.

I'd like to think they instituted inspections after that, but i really don't know. Back then, I also carried in a holster with an exposed trigger guard. Why did we do that? There are better designs today.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:16 PM
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I have had the extractor rod loosen on my son's 63 which can make it hard to open/close the cylinder. An occasional tightening fixes that easily. Also I have had a hang fire where the firing pin on the hammer got stuck in the primer. That one took a lot of tugging to get loose---only happened once in over 60 years of shooting and was most likely a soft primer.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:11 PM
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Long ago, when I first went to work for the local PD... I carried my nearly new M19. It was a few months before I was able to find and buy a 4" M66-1 at the LGS.
I made a really rookie mistake. I just switched to the 66. They are identical guns, right? Same ammo, same speedloaders. The first time I went to practice... the six in the gun I had the primer flow back around the firing pin in this funny volcano shape, locking the hammer down. I was able to free it by rocking the cylinder. They were hot Super Vels... worked fine in my blue 19.
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Old 08-03-2020, 12:41 AM
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I paid significant personal funds to take a training program by nationally recognized trainers. I was using my duty gear. BUGs weren't allowed. The only thing my PD provided was practice ammo, 38swc reloads. On one drill, myself and my partner were to exit the "patrol unit" take cover on the drivers side and engage 2 hostiles on the passenger's side. My first round was a squib, lodged in the forcing cone and locked the cylinder. I didn't carry a range rod. I don't even think I knew there was such a thing other than on a cleaning bench. There was nothing I could do except take cover.
Both myself and my partner were judged "dead". Since I couldn't engage, it was presumed my perp had gone around the front of the car to outflank us.
I have never had a squib with any ammo before or since. I immediately added a suitable brass rod to my key chain. I also carried a BUG.
Lesson Learned.
Another reason to carry TWO guns-- AND NEVER trust your life to reloads-- When your life is on the line stupid rules go out the window--

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Old 08-03-2020, 01:46 AM
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A brother officer in the NMSP was issued a highly prized 686. He hated cleaning, and thought stainless would allow shortcuts. He wiped the bore, chambers and exterior with Hoppes #9, loaded it, and carried it. We had an unusual schedule change for qualification a month or so later; he had not unloaded the revolver since 'cleaning' it. Well, the nickel-cased Federal 357 125 grain JHPs wouldn't eject! The Hoppes had turned the nickel plating into a sticky slurry - it took serious tapping on the end of the ejector rod to finally get the rounds out. The nickel slurry came out less easily.

We cleaned the rounds off - all fired, but he would have been unable to reload.

Last edited by biku324; 08-03-2020 at 01:16 PM.
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