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  #51  
Old 06-25-2020, 10:44 AM
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I agree with leaving some space between you and the car ahead of you. however that assumes that you have another lane to get into. a going over a low curb would probably disable a lot of cars today because of how low they sit
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Old 06-25-2020, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
It's not a Kobiyashi Maru, my friend, and you don't need a full tank of gas.
You may not need a full tank of gas, but this is exactly the Kobiyashi Maru.

For those not nerdy enough, the Kobiyashi Maru is a fictional test given to officers during training on the television show Star Trek. It's supposed to be a fighting scenario where the leader has to decide between two terrible choices; send a single crewman to his death or let the whole ship go down. The "no win" scenario.

Some people misinterpret the concept of a "no win" scenario to say that it isn't realistic because you can win. Not only can you win, but you should be working as hard as you can to win. That's the only acceptable outcome of a self-defense situation.

The thing is, every time someone has to fight, it's a no win for all involved. Many will disagree with me, but all self-defense fights are a no win. Why? Because the best you can hope for in the outcome is to get back to your regular life.

In most self-defense situations where a gun is involved, there are legal issues that must be dealt with. That will cost you time and money. Result - your life is changed, not for the better.

Then there's the emotional repercussions. Only a psychopath is not affected by causing the death of another person. It will affect everyone to different degrees, but it will affect you. A lot of people say on the internet, "I'll kill that MF and dance a jig while doing it." Yeah, that's not how reality works. Result - your life it changed, not for the better.


There are many different ways to live through the scenario in the OP. All of them involve life changing actions. In this situation, the best you can hope for is to get out without killing anyone, but you'll probably need a new car. The worst would be you have to shoot your way out, take a few people down and then see yourself on the news and youtube doing it. The liberal media and public will paint you not as a victim saving their life, but rather as a terrorist killing innocent protestors.

Yes, this is a no win scenario. If you're not prepared to deal with the backlash, why are you carrying a gun?
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Old 06-25-2020, 10:55 AM
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In this hypothetical situation, one should stop when one first notices what is going on in front of you. Situational awareness friends! It's more likely it will expand towards you than give room to let you pass. The longer you wait, the more congested with people and vehicles around you. You turn immediately, back up slowly to get room if you must. Don't deliberately hit or run over anybody... avoid them if you can... but your life is in danger and least use of force is to exit the danger zone. If they try to block you, that is a hostile act... run over them if necessary. We are used to being law abiding... drive the wrong way on a divided street if you must. You can correctly say you were trying to avoid having to employ deadly force (your pistol). Under extreme circumstances one might consider shooting a rioter off your hood through the windshield.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by VM View Post
Nice M1009! Is it still 24 volt?
An oxymoron if there ever was one.

I was a First Sergeant when we were issued these in Germany in 1985. I popped into one of the classes our drivers were getting from GM. As with all military vehicles, the CUCV came equipped with receptcles "slave cables" used for "jump starting."

After a long discussion (with charts, slides and diagrams) of the basic 12 volt vehicle system, cobbled together with relays and such to meet a 24 volt military requirement the instructor explained that you couldn't use the slave cables to jump your vehicle if the battery was dead.

I was gratified by one of my young PFC's who asked, "Why the @##@ would you want to jump the vehicle if the battery wasn't dead?"

Not long after we had to remove the tow pintles as actually towing a trailer pulled the mounting bolts through the bumper.
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Old 06-25-2020, 02:52 PM
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Many who instruct on “pp” driving suggest leaving the vehicle as a last resort.

You’d be surprised where your car can go, if you don’t care about paint or exhaust damage.

https://www.fourwheeler.com/news/160...of-moab-video/

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Old 06-25-2020, 03:02 PM
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That's why I have a savings account just for this!

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Old 06-25-2020, 04:02 PM
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Don’t plan on getting caught in that fashion but I’ll do whatever I have to at the time to hopefully get out alive.
I try never to allow myself to be boxed in and always have room to maneuver.
Ill try backing my way out, if vehicle comes under attack and windows start to be broken, well then self preservation and personal defense takes over!
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:26 PM
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Florida law says I can use deadly force under that scenario.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:55 PM
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“Leaving enough room” is great until the panicky Pete behind you pulls up and the guy in front backs up to your bumper.

Were I to be completely blocked in I would put on some on easy listening and shoot people who try to pull me out of the car. No need to overthink it.
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
“Leaving enough room” is great until the panicky Pete behind you pulls up and the guy in front backs up to your bumper.

Were I to be completely blocked in I would put on some on easy listening and shoot people who try to pull me out of the car. No need to overthink it.
If this had been a quiz....which it was in a way.
You win.
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:43 PM
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I used to do demo derbies. Might be some smashed up sheet metal and mangled radiators, but I WOULD move. Also I seldom drive small cars. You can shove stuff around pretty good and even a 5 ft run at it helps. Back and forth, make room. Bounce over that curb, its just a car and mostly metal. Make it move. The air bags switches take an amount of deceleration to go off. Pushing d=some cars around at low speed probably wont do it on the older rigs I drive.

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Old 06-26-2020, 01:36 AM
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I always leave myself room in all directions around my vehicle. I know sometimes that's difficult but it is possible if one is alert to what's going on around you.--

I admit I'm not from Texas. I got here as fast as I could. I was born and raised in a northeast city where I practiced pharmacy before I was a lawyer and I worked in the medicaid business in some of the toughest neighborhoods you could ever imagine. The rule of thumb at all times was NEVER drive bumper to bumper and especially at red lights; always leave room to maneuver. Yes, it's not always easy but you should always be thinking about it. Condition yellow I think is the correct terminology.....

Quote:
How does your vehicle respond, once "airbags" have been triggered and deployed?
Pushing people out of your way at 5 mph will not cause your airbags to deploy. Ramming cars will, of course, do that, and I am not sure if my vehicles will cease running if the airbags deploy. Hopefully not.......
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:22 AM
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Very old Nazis

Hey! the P.38 is still our service pistol.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:16 AM
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Frontal air bags are generally designed to deploy in "moderate to severe" frontal or near-frontal crashes, which are defined as crashes that are equivalent to hitting a solid, fixed barrier at 8 to 14 mph or higher. (This would be equivalent to striking a parked car of similar size at about 16 to 28 mph or higher.)

Big clue here is they are in front, use the rear end to hammer your way out.

Plus, most have a reset button under the dash

But, then both my trucks have mechanical fuel pumps and no fuel shut offs. The vehicles with switches wouldn't be hard to disable if you were so inclined. Better idea if you were so inclined would be to simply add an accessible bypass switch to the circuit

I hit a fuel grown whitetail buck with a 2005 Escape and wrinkled up a bunch os sheet metal, my wife hit one with her Windstar, and totaled it. Neither had the bags go off or quit running. It takes a pretty hard hit to fire them.

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  #65  
Old 06-26-2020, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
“Leaving enough room” is great until the panicky Pete behind you pulls up and the guy in front backs up to your bumper.

Were I to be completely blocked in I would put on some on easy listening and shoot people who try to pull me out of the car. No need to overthink it.

keep a couple extra mags in the center console....
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2020, 08:50 AM
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Talking Awareness - By one of the greatest car racers ever

Here is an example of awarenees.


"Eight days after Nino Farina's victory in the inaugural World Championship race at Silverstone, Juan Manuel Fangio, who was to dominate the sport for the next seven years, eased to a win in a race marred by a first-lap pile-up.

Fangio qualified on pole and that proved vital as he was able to avoid the carnage behind him, caused when Farina skidded on the part of the road soaked by the sea at Tabac Corner after a manic start. In the resulting melee, eight others were put out and by the end of the second lap only nine of the 19 starters remained and the tracked was soaked in spilt fuel.

Only Fangio and Luigi Villoresi escaped the chaos, but as Fangio came round again he became aware of yellow flags waving. "The spectators … were not looking at me leading the race but the other way," he said, and instinctively raised his hand to warn drivers behind him of the danger.

Arriving on the scene, Fangio found the track blocked and fuel spilling everywhere along with marshals desperately trying to clear the area. He leant out and gently nudged one of the crashed cars out of the way and continued. Villoresi and Alberto Ascari followed but none came close to catching Fangio who finished a lap ahead of Ascari."


The fact that a pilot, concentrated on doing the fastest lap possible on a GP car, was able to notice what the spectators were doing is one of the best examples of awareness I can find.

Edit. But the truth is. Fangio was outstanding.
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:37 AM
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Back in college in '73 we had a panty raid. Long story short, a bunch of us actually picked up a car with two chicks in it. It wasn't no compact car, either. Luckily, no one was hurt. We was just havin' some fun.

This is a good topic. Part of my situational awareness is not to get in this type of situation. Sadly, it does happen near me, in St. Louis. I stay away from there.

I would stay on main through fares. Wolves always cut out their prey from the edge of the herd.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:22 PM
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When we drive anywhere, I put the zipper bag with the KEL-TEC s/w 40 in the car with me.
This is their SEMI-auto pistol that resembles a sub-machine gun with a fold-able metal stock. I have 5 fifty round magazines in the bag with it.
Give me a safe feeling when driving long distances!
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
“Leaving enough room” is great until the panicky Pete behind you pulls up and the guy in front backs up to your bumper.

Were I to be completely blocked in I would put on some on easy listening and shoot people who try to pull me out of the car. No need to overthink it.
Would putting in ear plugs be evidence of premeditation?
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:13 PM
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Would putting in ear plugs be evidence of premeditation?
In this situation? Not if I'm on the jury. That's quality preparation as far as I'm concerned. Of course you know the news will spin it as premeditation.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:56 PM
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You might need to thin out the gene pool a little.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
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Serious quest for the gang:

How does your vehicle respond, once "airbags" have been triggered and deployed?

I would think that the on-board intelligence (computer) would create a shut down command to the vehicle.. ???

Many cars have the "turn off airbag" option for the passenger portion of the vehicle, is this available for the entire car?

If one is in the described situation , and the need to immediately vacate arises, your vehicle no longer is drivable ??
It takes a lot more than a tap to cause the airbag to deploy. Dad hit a deer at highway speed once, destroying the front end. The airbag did not go off. This was a mid 90's Suburban.
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:27 AM
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Another thing is, once the hear the ker boom ker boom of my 45 and the blood and bits start getting on them, I think most of them will do their best Usain Bolt imitation. Part of it is a pack mentality, some of them start attacking cars and most of them join in. Some of them start running and most of the survivors will run too. They do under stand strength in numbers. They will also understand that changes with "He has a a gun".

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Old 06-27-2020, 08:55 AM
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They are not the sharpest tools in the kit...............


Have you seen the video of them trying to pull down the Andrew Jackson statue in DC....... protesters with ropes on both sides pulling in opposite directions...like a tug of war.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:42 AM
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There was a Video clip on Fox last week.... A Black Dodge Charger trying to ease forward in traffic, that happened to be an unmarked City of Miami Unit....Had Red and Blue lights flashing on bottom Rocker panels....The rioters surrounded it and One took his Skateboard and raising it over his head, struck the Vehicle on the passenger right front fender.... 4 Uniformed Officers with Helmets/ Faceshields and Batons immediately exited the Vehicle and made arrests... That is what Field Force is and should have been deployed in the beginning.


Peaceful protest, no problem....a riot is a problem for everyone.... If you DO get caught up in it, you have to get out of the “ Kill Zone”, ....Reverse your way out, don’t drive into it....Have a plan, Do what you have to do to get out of there and be Safe.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:53 AM
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This is the type of thread that lawyers print out and bring to court with them to prove premeditation. Good job fellas... good job.
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:20 AM
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This is the type of thread that lawyers print out and bring to court with them to prove premeditation. Good job fellas... good job.
A couple of people have said this in this thread. Please explain to us how this is premeditation and not preparation?

I ask because I see it completely differently. Talking about stuff just like this is how we learn to avoid this type of situation altogether.
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:33 AM
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Unfortunately, this scenario could be very likely and any response could be used to indicate premeditation. Therefore, I will exercise my right to remain silent
Regardless of what may happen in such a situation, remember that anything you say on social media can possibly be used against you...
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:47 PM
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YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS.

Think of a "warning shot" from the other guys' perspective. The law always looks at events from all litigants' sides. Your shots put the other guy in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. Thus, the other guy may reasonably use deadly force to stop the attack, ie, shoot at you and kill you.

Firing a "warning shot" is doing what? Making noise? Trying to scare somebody? If you are in fear for your life, or the life of others, why are you making noise, and not addressing the threat? Isn't that an admission that you were not in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury? If you feared for your life, you would shoot at the threat, not shoot to make noise.

Your "warning shot" might harm a bystander. Shoot down, you might have a ricochet. Shoot up into the air, the bullet can fall on somebody's head. Shoot to the side, you might hit a person.

IMHO, firing warning shot(s) is like signing your own death warrant. Do not do it.

Also, if you are under attack, why would you want to expend part of your limited supply of ammo. You may need your ammo to save you from the threat.

YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Collects View Post
YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS.

Think of a "warning shot" from the other guys' perspective. The law always looks at events from all litigants' sides. Your shots put the other guy in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. Thus, the other guy may reasonably use deadly force to stop the attack, ie, shoot at you and kill you.

Firing a "warning shot" is doing what? Making noise? Trying to scare somebody? If you are in fear for your life, or the life of others, why are you making noise, and not addressing the threat? Isn't that an admission that you were not in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury? If you feared for your life, you would shoot at the threat, not shoot to make noise.

Your "warning shot" might harm a bystander. Shoot down, you might have a ricochet. Shoot up into the air, the bullet can fall on somebody's head. Shoot to the side, you might hit a person.

IMHO, firing warning shot(s) is like signing your own death warrant. Do not do it.

Also, if you are under attack, why would you want to expend part of your limited supply of ammo. You may need your ammo to save you from the threat.

YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS.
If you are referring to my post #21.... I think I was making the same point.

Like a former VP shooting his shotgun out the window,,,,

While a warning shot(s) might have seemed like a good idea in the past ......not so much today........ as they could only serve to draw return fire.
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:17 PM
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As others have said I am not giving up a much more powerful weapon (my vehicle) for a much less powerful one (handgun).

The only other thing I would do that has not been mentioned is rather calling the cops who are not going to get there in time to save me from the angry mob is I am going to use my cellphone to video the crowd attacking the other car, driver and mine while I am backing up.

While there will likely be videos taken by other people I want video of what I was seeing and experiencing from inside my car.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
Unfortunately, this scenario could be very likely and any response could be used to indicate premeditation. Therefore, I will exercise my right to remain silent
I HOPE you have "premeditated" on your actions in the event of a situation like this! If it occurs, as long as you can give reasonable explanation for your actions that premeditation won't hurt you. I read a story about just such a case that was REAL....and the law says that running over people is justified because they are all considered a part of the mob - whether they were rocking your car or not.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
“Leaving enough room” is great until the panicky Pete behind you pulls up and the guy in front backs up to your bumper.

Were I to be completely blocked in I would put on some on easy listening and shoot people who try to pull me out of the car. No need to overthink it.
Well they better be driving something with power because I have a V8 with 405 hp and 4Matic and I will MOVE them.

Besides, if they're doing that it's because they are maneuvering to escape as well, so they won't have me permanently pinned in.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:37 AM
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Well I would reach around to the back seat and pull out my.......... BLM sign

(Hopefully I don't grab the MAGA one by accident.)
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlawler View Post
Just keep in mind that all late model vehicles have a fuel pump shutoff that activates when airbags deploy. You can’t just move vehicles out of your way and expect to make an escape.
for an airbag to be deployed from hitting a moveable object such as another vehicle you need to be traveling at least 15 MPH
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  #86  
Old 06-29-2020, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
The trouble is, if you drive off and run over someone not directly threatening your life, you will likely be considered the aggressor.

This is a no win situation.

I'd sit and wait for a gap I could drive through without hitting anyone.
That is almost hysterically funny. Have you watched any of these mobs engulf a vehicle? There is no gap to drive thru unless you make it.
Drive thru it, not slowly but as fast as you can, get out of danger. Report it to police as what it was, an attack on you inside your vehicle by an over whelming force. You probably injured people but your life was being threatened. The smashed window is good evidense, but I would record it on my phone.
I am fine if they beat up my car, I am insured, but break a window, it is now an attack on your person. The relative safety envelope of the car is now gone, so driving thru it is the most desirable, so you can get away. Stay & you will be dragged from your car & the mob frenzy will take over & you are just likely to have your head kicked in or smashed with the same brick that broke your window. My gun is last resort, always.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flagman1776 View Post
In this hypothetical situation, one should stop when one first notices what is going on in front of you. Situational awareness friends! It's more likely it will expand towards you than give room to let you pass. The longer you wait, the more congested with people and vehicles around you. You turn immediately, back up slowly to get room if you must. Don't deliberately hit or run over anybody... avoid them if you can... but your life is in danger and least use of force is to exit the danger zone. If they try to block you, that is a hostile act... run over them if necessary. We are used to being law abiding... drive the wrong way on a divided street if you must. You can correctly say you were trying to avoid having to employ deadly force (your pistol). Under extreme circumstances one might consider shooting a rioter off your hood through the windshield.
Unfortunately blocking your car is not considered a violent act against you. Even beating on the hood or fenders with weapons would be a no, its property crime. Once the drivers compartment is breeched, your person is now under attack, before it was a property crime, which does not allow use of force in most states. Shooting is always last resort.
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  #88  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:28 PM
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A protester got in front of the Iowa Governor's vehicle (being driven by an Iowa Highway Patrol officer) protester was hit, knocked down, refused medical treatment, and went back to protest march. Wonder if that will be the end of the incident or not?
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:35 PM
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Back to the OP.

In that scenario, I'd self talk, "Wake up - this is a whacked dream."
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:33 AM
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You know, I've got to wonder how effective it might be just to shout at the top of your lungs; "I HAVE COVID-19!" then begin coughing profusely, think that would get them to reconsider their actions and clear a path?

Oh who am I kidding? These idiots are already standing shoulder to shoulder out in the open in the midst of a major pandemic and are apparently under the impression that any/all police shootings are a hate crime, ergo they're most likely your average conspiracy theorists who believe that COVID-19 isn't real, 9/11 was an inside job, and that the Government is secretly being run by a race of subterranean Reptiles plotting all manner of contrived schemes to enslave humanity through subliminal messaging in advertisements.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post
You know, I've got to wonder how effective it might be just to shout at the top of your lungs; "I HAVE COVID-19!" then begin coughing profusely, think that would get them to reconsider their actions and clear a path?

Oh who am I kidding? These idiots are already standing shoulder to shoulder out in the open in the midst of a major pandemic and are apparently under the impression that any/all police shootings are a hate crime, ergo they're most likely your average conspiracy theorists who believe that COVID-19 isn't real, 9/11 was an inside job, and that the Government is secretly being run by a race of subterranean Reptiles plotting all manner of contrived schemes to enslave humanity through subliminal messaging in advertisements.
Covid is real just not the killer it is portrayed in the media. Wash your hands, dont lick people you dont know, you are pretty much gtg.
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn View Post
In the "what if" scenario the OP draws, unless your vehicle's equipped with something belt fed, you're SOL. Once your Glock 19 runs dry, the crowd will get you.
Actually no. Pop a couple and the probability the crowd starts running is very high. They're punks, not trained military.

Quote:
Best idea? Stay away from anywhere trouble might bubble up. Failing that, find alternate routes to/from where you need to be.
That, of course, is the best option.
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  #93  
Old 07-03-2020, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Covid is real just not the killer it is portrayed in the media. Wash your hands, dont lick people you dont know, you are pretty much gtg.
It may not be a killer, but it's most certainly an extremely unpleasant virus which you'd obviously want to avoid catching, and therefore you'd imagine that anyone who is aware of the potential threat of it might want to keep their distance.from someone who is hacking/coughing in their midst.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:08 PM
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Within the past couple of weeks I read a story on (probably) ktla.com, the channel 5 Fox station in Los Angeles. A citizen in Southern California was stuck in a "protest" when some peaceful protester smashed one of the windows of his pickup. The driver was fearing for his life and the life of his wife/girlfriend when he exited stage left in said pickup, and at the least bounced a few protesters to the ground.

Once the driver was in the clear they called police. At the time of the article the police had investigated the incident and cleared the driver of all wrong doing. I'll bet none of the protesters filed a complaint, so there probably wasn't a victim for the police to interview.
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Old 07-03-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Covid is real just not the killer it is portrayed in the media. Wash your hands, dont lick people you dont know, you are pretty much gtg.
Easy for you to say.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Covid is real just not the killer it is portrayed in the media.
COVID-19 might not be, but the mobs are.

Be safe out there.
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Old 07-07-2020, 10:46 AM
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Just found an article from 2018 in which the author addressed the O.P.'s scenario. In short he said ... "Simply put, a disparity of force means that the attackers - even without weapons - had such an overwhelming amount of force available to them that the lawful defender was at risk of serious bodily injury"...and ..."When the protestors put the driver in fear for his life, the passive protestors are equally and individually lawful targets of the driver's defensive actions."

So if I need to leave a bloody streak to get out of there, that's what is going to happen....and I'd be legally justified.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:25 PM
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This is a good discussion.

Still, the best fight is no fight. Use your situational awareness to keep clear of these situations.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:45 PM
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Blocking an occupied car and preventing it from moving forward or backward is kidnapping (a felony). The law says that you may use force to stop a felony. It gets worse when the kidnapping exposes a citizen to possible bodily harm from a mob. Enough said. Do what you must to escape. If necessary, floor the gas pedal and admit nothing. Let God sort out the carnage.


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Old 07-07-2020, 07:01 PM
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It’s always best to be aware of your surroundings, know the situation locally, and avoid being there in the first place. We all like to think we’re tough and talk a big game, but the best thing is avoidance. Yes, I carry concealed. But do I want to use it, no. And even if you’re in the right, whether you used your gun or you drove over someone, being in the right probably won’t keep you out of jail or prevent you from being sued. The best advice is to be aware and avoid.
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