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Old 06-26-2020, 09:41 AM
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The recent social unrest quickly morphed into a social revolution, with arson being one of the principal weapons used. Anyone contemplating defending himself or his property against a firebomb attack must be intimately familiar with the definitions and use-of-force laws in his home state. Generally, you may use deadly force to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling. Does “dwelling” in your state include a motel room, a trailer, camper, boat, etc? Do you know what your state considers to be a dwelling?

If you elect to spend the night in your place of business, is your place of business also considered a dwelling? If you live on a farm, is the barn, garage and assorted outbuildings considered part of your dwelling? You need to check the definitions of your state penal codes for the answers.
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:57 AM
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The problem is, so may laws that are hastily enacted are too vague. And you need to hire Cajunlawyer to decipher it.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:08 AM
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In FL, arson is a forcible felony, against which deadly force is allowed. Home, business, dwelling, dog house, nothing specified.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
The recent social unrest quickly morphed into a social revolution, with arson being one of the principal weapons used. Anyone contemplating defending himself or his property against a firebomb attack must be intimately familiar with the definitions and use-of-force laws in his home state. Generally, you may use deadly force to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling. Does “dwelling” in your state include a motel room, a trailer, camper, boat, etc? Do you know what your state considers to be a dwelling?

If you elect to spend the night in your place of business, is your place of business also considered a dwelling? If you live on a farm, is the barn, garage and assorted outbuildings considered part of your dwelling? You need to check the definitions of your state penal codes for the answers.
First, IANAL. In Nebraska, being in your home or place of business defines whether you have a duty to retreat or not. Not if you can use deadly force or not. If you're outside your home/business and are under a deadly force attack that you can't safely retreat from, whether it's with fire or a butter knife, you can respond with deadly force.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:44 AM
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Even CA allows the use of deadly force to protect real property in most circumstances.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:20 PM
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Bleep the laws I'm taking care of me and mine. worry about the small poop later
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:48 PM
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Default N.J. odd regulations

here in PRNJ bb guns are regulated as full blown firearms - possession of slingshots , pea shooters , blow guns , + brass knuckles are forbidden under all circumstances ! - flame throwers are not regulated at all + no license required to own or use -
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
Even CA allows the use of deadly force to protect real property in most circumstances.
This is not correct. In fact, CA doesn't allow use of deadly force to protect property. Here is the actual law:

Quote:
3476.Right to Defend Real or Personal Property
The owner [or possessor] of (real/ [or] personal) property may use
reasonable force to protect that property from imminent harm. [A
person may also use reasonable force to protect the property of a
(family member/guest/master/servant/ward) from immediate harm.]
Reasonable force means the amount of force that a reasonable person in
the same situation would believe is necessary to protect the property
from imminent harm.

Reasonable force is the operative action here. Do you think a CA jury will agree with killing someone for stealing a TV?



To the OP specifically, CA law says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CA PC 197
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that
  1. the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime;
  2. there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and
  3. the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime . Murder, mayhem, rape and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.
In the case of arson, you would have to prove that the arsonist intended to kill or seriously injure someone if you used deadly force to stop them. This will be difficult to prove when talking about a closed business. Less difficult if it's a home.

The bottom line here is that you may defend yourself from deadly force with deadly force:
  • If you shoot someone who is throwing a molotov cocktail at your barn, it might not go well for you.
  • If you shoot someone who is throwing a molotov cocktail at your house with your family in it, that's justified.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:14 PM
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my weapon has fire.....
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:31 PM
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There is a difference between REAL property and PERSONAL property. Personal property is the mentioned TV. REAL property is your home.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:56 PM
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A dwelling is an occupied structure. Texas law relatively liberally allows the use of deadly force in the protection of property (See Joe Horn case) particularly at night, but it seems to apply in broad daylight. Notwithstanding numerous protests by the usual agitators, Mr. Horn's daylight defense of his absent neighbor's property by shooting and killing two thieves (both of whom were miraculously just turning their lives around) did not result in prosecution even though Mr. Horn called the police and they told him to stand down. Of course, most folks around here are still not in the criminal enablement movement. If someone is setting your house, or your neighbor's house, on fire here, you can stop them with deadly force.
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Old 06-28-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
There is a difference between REAL property and PERSONAL property. Personal property is the mentioned TV. REAL property is your home.
If you're saying this to say that you can use deadly force to protect your real property in CA, you're still wrong.

Go back and read the law I posted again. It states real or personal property can be protected with reasonable force. Reasonable force, when life is not hanging in the balance, does not include deadly force.

Look, you may do what you want. The only reason I'm posting this is to alert anyone who reads it to what the law says and consequently, what they'll face should they go to court.
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:07 PM
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Obviously I've read up on my local laws and fortunately reside in a state with fair laws regarding Self-Defense, so I really don't have to worry about defending myself breaking any laws.

That being said, laws would take a backseat to survival even if I did live in some state in which the laws were backwards favoring criminals over otherwise law-abiding citizens and would happily be the first to challenge such laws if need be. Frankly, I'll never understand men who are so concerned over the possibility of getting into legal trouble over defending themselves that they've all but decided to just let themselves be victimized rather than risk being taken to court. Honestly, I've seen guys on forums who seemingly do nothing but hang around threads spewing some of the most cowardly speeches whenever the subject of self-defense is raised that they're all but advising others to just surrender because shooting someone in self-defense is basically a one-way ticket to prison, so better to just let the home invader violate you and your family and hopefully decide not to kill you afterwards because you'll just get violated daily in prison. They'll go on and on about legal fees, apparently completely obvious to the fact that your money is worthless if you're dead and home invaders probably intend to rob you anyway. Honestly, if I didn't know better then I'd think that these guys are just professional thieves who spend their days trying to convince people not to defend themselves when they break in at night, which considering the alternative that they're legitimately that wimpy/paranoid that they'd rather be at the mercy of home invaders than the legal system, seems downright plausible to me.

Call me naive, crazy, macho, or whatever other sad excuse for an insult your mind can possibly conjure if you must, but that's completely unthinkable to me. I don't know what kind of screwed up laws exist in your states that the legal system favors criminals over law-abiding citizens, but why you would continue living in such states, much less living in fear of such a corrupt legal system to the absurd degree that you'd sooner let yourself be victimized than fight back is just plain wrong. If I couldn't afford to move out of that miserable state and someone attacked me, then I'd sooner stand up to my attackers, go to prison, and fight the broken laws from the inside than attempt to "live" my life under tyranny. Better to me a martyr than just another victim of a criminal and the corrupt laws that enabled him.
I'll never understand how there are so many folks who speak as though they would take up arms and battle the Army itself if the Government ever attempted to strip them of their Second Amendment rights, yet apparently they're so scared of Lawyers that they wouldn't take up arms against someone who may very well rob them of their very life.

Sorry to rant about this, but it drives me absolutely crazy seeing people so afraid of the potential consequences of defending themselves that they've all but talked themselves out of it, especially when they start trying to convince others to follow their shameful example.
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post
Sorry to rant about this, but it drives me absolutely crazy seeing people so afraid of the potential consequences of defending themselves that they've all but talked themselves out of it, especially when they start trying to convince others to follow their shameful example.
That's ok. It drives me crazy to see people who disregard the legal aftermath that can happen after a justified self defense shooting. If you're lucky, you may never have to find that out. If you're not, you may be able to successfully defend yourself only to find out that the legal expenses involved have bankrupted your family and whatever plans you had are gone. Maybe even your home. Worse case scenario, if you survive, you defend yourself but end up in prison. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I'm sure your family would appreciate that.

Now, is any of that a sure thing? Of course not. But to fail to acknowledge the possibility makes about as much sense as some guy buying a gun, loading it, and sticking it in his pocket without ever shooting it or getting any kind of practice or training. It's like hoping for the best but not doing any kind of preparation for the worst.

But accepting that there may be unexpected consequences, including legal troubles and expenses, and planning for it beforehand, can free your mind to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. So does knowing what the laws are.

But hey, if you like gambling...
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:47 PM
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You need to not only know the law, but the local legal culture. Where I live in WA, offender well-being is properly understood to be at the bottom of the priority of life, and defense of self and others/home is going to get no negative attention. (And I know the people who would be doing the review, not to mention I would likely be involved if I was not the user of the force.)

In dumb places such as Seattle/King County, all bets are off. If you are stuck in someplace else that is dumb (most of the I5 corridor from Blaine to San Diego; downstate NY; Jersey, Maryland, Mass and the like), you should act accordingly. There are places I simply will not go because of their attitudes.

Frankly, there likely should have 10-30 rioters shot every night in Seattle due to the arsons and other violent crimes. Instead, the Mayor is negotiating with the rioters/terrorists in the Capitol Hill Anarchy Zone, when the correct answer is "ask, tell, make" covered in a few seconds and LOTS of arrests.
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:12 PM
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Just because some thing is legal, it may not be the smartest thing to do. Even if you are not charged with a crime, you can still be sued, and possibly loose every that you own.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:28 PM
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Having suffered 22% Second and Third Degree burns personally I know how dangerous fire can be. Property is property and life is life. Property can be replaced. Your existence cannot. I may be a tad off topic. Please forgive me Federali. If you can get out I would suggest that. If it appears that you cannot I think we all know the other option.
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
That's ok. It drives me crazy to see people who disregard the legal aftermath that can happen after a justified self defense shooting. If you're lucky, you may never have to find that out. If you're not, you may be able to successfully defend yourself only to find out that the legal expenses involved have bankrupted your family and whatever plans you had are gone. Maybe even your home. Worse case scenario, if you survive, you defend yourself but end up in prison. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I'm sure your family would appreciate that.

Now, is any of that a sure thing? Of course not. But to fail to acknowledge the possibility makes about as much sense as some guy buying a gun, loading it, and sticking it in his pocket without ever shooting it or getting any kind of practice or training. It's like hoping for the best but not doing any kind of preparation for the worst.

But accepting that there may be unexpected consequences, including legal troubles and expenses, and planning for it beforehand, can free your mind to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. So does knowing what the laws are.

But hey, if you like gambling...
As previously stated, money is worthless if you're dead and most violent unprovoked attacks are done for the sake of robbery, ergo you're likely to be left without money either way. Besides, I grew up poor, and have been through numerous financial troubles throughout my life, so I already know how to survive without money and the prospect of losing it isn't nearly as scary to me as it may be to someone unfamiliar with the prospect. Besides, having been through said experiences, I already know that money comes and goes regardless of how well you prepare because life can always throw unexpected expenses at you. (My personal favorite is medical expenses, those are the worst.)

Furthermore, I couldn't face my family if I didn't give my all to protect them because I was too busy cowering over the thought of courtroom expenses and imprisonment.

Last but not least, speaking of expenses... You know what else is potentially more expensive than legal fees? Medical bills, psychiatric bills, and funerary expenses! You know, other expenses which could potentially come in the aftermath of a violent attack. So regardless of what you do, you're probably not going to walk away from an attack without any expenses whatsoever.

No matter what you do, the aftermath of a violent attack is going to consist of you making the most of a bad situation.
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:13 PM
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A lit gas bomb, mazeltov cocktail, is a dangerous and deadly weapon and if in range and in fear of death, shoot!
If some idiot is stoking a fire in the middle of a riot- you cant fix stupid and unless you think he could throw that fire (pallet, mattress, dumpster) at or on you, you should retreat and 911. You were too close anyway.
I know, that fire may spread and engulf an orphanage, but it aint your fight, thats a fire department level decision so get to safety and out of their way.

while we are at it, laying in wait for an arsonist is not going to sit well with most jurys, and setting a trap for an arsonist and catching a firefighter is not going to plea down below at least manslaughter.

I can't really imagine being the only person with a gun that could stop an arsonist with intent, most of the imaginable scenarios involve laying in wait or no possible law response as in post-apocalypse. Me and an idiot with a lit cocktail facing off on an open street? Yep. Odds of that? I probably ran and hid a long time ago.......
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba2014 View Post
Just because some thing is legal, it may not be the smartest thing to do. Even if you are not charged with a crime, you can still be sued, and possibly loose every that you own.
A different way I've seen this phrased is "What are you willing to go to jail for if a jury decides you weren't justified using deadly force."

Protecting my wife, kids, and grand kids? Yep. A house with no one inside? Probably not.
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Old 06-28-2020, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
You need to not only know the law, but the local legal culture. Where I live in WA, offender well-being is properly understood to be at the bottom of the priority of life, and defense of self and others/home is going to get no negative attention. (And I know the people who would be doing the review, not to mention I would likely be involved if I was not the user of the force.)

In dumb places such as Seattle/King County, all bets are off. If you are stuck in someplace else that is dumb (most of the I5 corridor from Blaine to San Diego; downstate NY; Jersey, Maryland, Mass and the like), you should act accordingly. There are places I simply will not go because of their attitudes.
Boy, I agree with this post.
Legal on the books and legal in fact are not synonymous, as the last month of riots and various unprosecuted law breaking shows. Discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, but what was a clear deadly force situation 45 days ago does not prevent a person from being maliciously prosecuted with the full fury of a major district attorney’s office.

Pedantic arguments from non-lawyers citing vague statutory law is a world of difference from real case law in a jurisdiction - like being an ace pilot in a computer game versus a 10,000Hr type qualified pilot. YMMV.
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:01 PM
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Houston Rick, the Joe Horn story! Outstanding! I had a very close friend, now gone, named Joe Horn. Retired LEO, Vietname vet, gun dealer, gun expert, etc. You have no idea how much ribbing he took from us after that other Joe Horn story hit the news.

2lmaker, this is by far one of the great "malapropisms" of all time:

Quote:
mazeltov cocktail,
A "molotov cocktail" is defined as a "a crude incendiary device typically consisting of a bottle filled with flammable liquid and with a means of ignition. The production of similar grenades was organized by Vyacheslav Molotov during World War II."

(c) Online Dictionary

"Mazel tov" is, of course, Hebrew or Yiddish for congratulations or good luck or similar phrases of good will.

But I promise to find a way to use that new phrase so I thank you!
=============================================
============================================
Some Texas statutory items - when you put them together you can see what the answer to the OP's question would be in Texas:

Texas Property and Penal Codes - various provisions

(1) “ Dwelling ” means one or more rooms rented for use as a permanent residence under a single lease to one or more tenants.

"Dwelling" means any:

(A) structure or part of a structure that is occupied as, or designed or intended for occupancy as, a residence by one or more families; or

(B) vacant land that is offered for sale or lease for the construction or location of a structure or part of a structure described by Paragraph (A).

(9) "Family" includes a single individual.

"Residential land" means real property improved by a dwelling and zoned for or otherwise authorized for single-family or multifamily use.

"Dwelling" means one or more rooms rented for use as a permanent residence under a single lease to one or more tenants.

"Tenant" means a person who is authorized by a lease to occupy a dwelling to the exclusion of others and, for the purposes of Subchapters D, E, and F, who is obligated under the lease to pay rent.

================================



(a) For the purpose of this section, “riot” means the assemblage of seven or more persons resulting in conduct which:

(1) creates an immediate danger of damage to property or injury to persons;

(2) substantially obstructs law enforcement or other governmental functions or services;  or

(3) by force, threat of force, or physical action deprives any person of a legal right or disturbs any person in the enjoyment of a legal right.

(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly participates in a riot.

(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the assembly was at first lawful and when one of those assembled manifested an intent to engage in conduct enumerated in Subsection (a), the actor retired from the assembly.

(d) It is no defense to prosecution under this section that another who was a party to the riot has been acquitted, has not been arrested, prosecuted, or convicted, has been convicted of a different offense or of a different type or class of offense, or is immune from prosecution.

(e) Except as provided in Subsection (f), an offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor.

(f) An offense under this section is an offense of the same classification as any offense of a higher grade committed by anyone engaged in the riot if the offense was:

(1) in the furtherance of the purpose of the assembly;  or

(2) an offense which should have been anticipated as a result of the assembly.

==================================

SUBCHAPTER C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

====================================

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

===========================================

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


Sec. 9.34. PROTECTION OF LIFE OR HEALTH. (a) A person is justified in using force, but not deadly force, against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other from committing suicide or inflicting serious bodily injury to himself.

(b) A person is justified in using both force and deadly force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force or deadly force is immediately necessary to preserve the other's life in an emergency.

The State of Texas doesn't claim copyrights for its statutes. They are public domain and are quoted and used by lawyers and courts everywhere.
=============================

I didn't look for the law on sleeping inside a business but I know that if you're doing that it's definitely your dwelling, whether one night or many nights.

The "local legal culture" is markedly different in the big cities of Texas than it once was - the influx of folks from the North, East, and West Coast has caused this. Still, if you're sitting on your front porch in any given evening and rioters show up you won't get much argument from anyone if you're obliged to act accordingly.
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Old 06-29-2020, 01:05 AM
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Why is it always one way or the other with some people? I don't understand the idea that you have to kill someone or you're not protecting your family/property. You can protect your home without killing.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:20 AM
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Why is it always one way or the other with some people? I don't understand the idea that you have to kill someone or you're not protecting your family/property. You can protect your home without killing.
That's true my friend. The problem is that if one is confronted by deadly force one may be required to use deadly force to stop the threat. Deadly force, by definition, means that the use thereof could cause someone to die.

If you can thwart an attack by brandishing your weapon then you have succeeded in avoiding the death of anyone, perp or good guy. If it's just you and a bad guy and you have martial skills that don't involve firearms you might very well thwart a threat without resorting to killing anyone.

So you are correct - but this is the Smith & Wesson Forum, the essential discussion is the use of firearms to defend hearth and home and kith and kin and the result of using firearms to protect yourself or others is HIGHLY LIKELY to result in your opponent's demise. Therein lies the rub.

Nobody here wants to kill anyone. Everyone here is prepared to do so and I think I speak for virtually everyone on this Forum. Anyone not prepared to use deadly force with a firearm ought to not own a firearm.....not counting folks with pretty, high dollar collections locked in safes or hanging on walls with no ammunition available.

I don't think anyone here fits that description BICBW......
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:39 AM
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A couple of years after I retired I got a subpoena to testify in an old rape case. It was like old home week at the ABQ USAO. One of my favorite AUSAs came out of the Grand Jury room where she had presented a proposed manslaughter indictment for an old dude who heard some noises by his horse trailers one night. He had a trailer stolen a couple of weeks before so he stuck his Marlin Model 60 (a perennial reservation favorite) out the window and cracked off 8 or 10 rounds in the general direction of the sounds, which stopped post haste. He went back to bed and the next morning found a dead 20-something girl stretched out by his trailer.

The grand jury no billed it, and my friend wasn’t surprised. People hate thieves. I bet they hate arsonists too.

There’s the law, and there’s what really happens. It cuts both ways.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:00 AM
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This is not correct. In fact, CA doesn't allow use of deadly force to protect property. Here is the actual law:




Reasonable force is the operative action here. Do you think a CA jury will agree with killing someone for stealing a TV?



To the OP specifically, CA law says this:



In the case of arson, you would have to prove that the arsonist intended to kill or seriously injure someone if you used deadly force to stop them. This will be difficult to prove when talking about a closed business. Less difficult if it's a home.

The bottom line here is that you may defend yourself from deadly force with deadly force:
  • If you shoot someone who is throwing a molotov cocktail at your barn, it might not go well for you.
  • If you shoot someone who is throwing a molotov cocktail at your house with your family in it, that's justified.
The term "Reasonable person" is open ended and it appears in many laws. It leaves a huge stumbling block as what is and what isn't a reasonable person. Ask 100 people to define reasonable person, you will get dozens and dozens of definitions.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:07 AM
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When thieving becomes a way of life it can put civilized people's lives in danger.
Good riddance!!!
Throwing a fire bomb at an occupied home or barn full of animals is worse.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:31 AM
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Our neighbors and I have distinctly different views. They say they don't have anything in their home worth using deadly force. I say what about the lives of my family.

So, put the neighbors and myself on a jury.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:05 AM
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An interesting point to keep in mind is that in states like mine, regardless of the answer to the OP's question, for voting purposes your home is where you sleep at night. So if you are homeless and sleep under a bridge, for example, the court recognizes that where you slept under that bridge is or was your home. I mention this because it's something to keep in mind in terms of a legal defense God forbid. Even in less extreme circumstances, people living in temporary housing, living with relatives, having dual citizenship in multiple states & countries etc. can also make such defense. We have to remember that, regardless of the constitutionality, laws are made one of three ways in this country (by legislative, executive or judicial action). So even if your state doesn't give you the benefit of the doubt defending yourself from your car, for example, if you can convince a judge or a court, you might be able to set new precedent (even if only in your state and/or circumstance).

Anyway, the OP makes a good point.

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Old 06-29-2020, 08:23 AM
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We had one of my Dad's cousins, by marriage, badly injured when he was pulled from his truck during the McDuffie riots.
Rioters brought their kids to the party and he did not want to drive over kids.
Spent months in the hospital.
My only advice to him was to give his three daughters a slap on their butt as their SCUBA protocol was lacking.

Another of Dad's cousin's business partners in Brooklyn ran his mouth about the new store gun he was just licensed to keep....and when the crooks came in they knew where it was and shot him with it.
Dead men tell no tales.

Same cousin driving his high end car was rear-ended on the parkway.... pulled over and lost his Rolex etc etc at gunpoint.
He was lucky and lived.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:40 AM
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I figure I would know if someone was trying to do me harm. I would be scared witless. I've been scared witless. I know what it feels like.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:14 PM
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Why is it always one way or the other with some people? I don't understand the idea that you have to kill someone or you're not protecting your family/property. You can protect your home without killing.
I can't speak for everyone in every thread, but in the context of this thread and the scenario presented within, my answer is simple...

Because someone who is going to throw Molotov Cocktails at you or your home isn't the sort who is going to back down because that's not the behavior a streetcorner thug looking for an easy target, it's the behavior of a motivated attacker whose doing it out of hate or just for the thrill of it.

It seems like a pretty straightforward kill or be killed situation to me.

But hey, if you can think of another way to stop some maniac armed with a molotov cocktail from setting fire to you, your family, and/or your home without killing him, then I would sincerely like to hear it because obviously I'd rather not have to shoot someone.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:51 PM
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The recent social unrest quickly morphed into a social revolution, with arson being one of the principal weapons used. Anyone contemplating defending himself or his property against a firebomb attack must be intimately familiar with the definitions and use-of-force laws in his home state. Generally, you may use deadly force to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling. Does “dwelling” in your state include a motel room, a trailer, camper, boat, etc? Do you know what your state considers to be a dwelling?

If you elect to spend the night in your place of business, is your place of business also considered a dwelling? If you live on a farm, is the barn, garage and assorted outbuildings considered part of your dwelling? You need to check the definitions of your state penal codes for the answers.
If you happen to be the person occupying whatever may or may not be a "dwelling" when someone is firebombing it, it might be terminally mistaken to concern yourself more with whether it is a "dwelling" than with stopping the attack by any means necessary.

IMO, this would hold true regardless of any prior determination as to the status of the "dwelling."
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:10 PM
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... mazeltov cocktail...
Is that made with Mogen David? or do you mean Molotov cocktail? A crude incendiary device typically consisting of a bottle filled with flammable liquid and with a means of ignition. The production of similar grenades was organized by Vyacheslav Molotov during World War II, hence the name.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:40 PM
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Is that made with Mogen David?
Even Mad Dog 2020 would be a little light in alcohol content. Everclear would probably work, but alcohol is still a little cool-burning. Better to stick with the original.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:57 PM
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I can't speak for everyone in every thread, but in the context of this thread and the scenario presented within, my answer is simple...

Because someone who is going to throw Molotov Cocktails at you or your home isn't the sort who is going to back down because that's not the behavior a streetcorner thug looking for an easy target, it's the behavior of a motivated attacker whose doing it out of hate or just for the thrill of it.

It seems like a pretty straightforward kill or be killed situation to me.

But hey, if you can think of another way to stop some maniac armed with a molotov cocktail from setting fire to you, your family, and/or your home without killing him, then I would sincerely like to hear it because obviously I'd rather not have to shoot someone.
I thought he was differentiating between a rioter throwing a firebomb at someone's home when there were people inside versus a rioter throwing a firebomb at someone's home when no one was inside. In his state the first case allows a deadly force response. The second case doesn't.

Like every other law related to self defense, I'm sure it varies by state. Like a couple others mentioned, what actually happens with a jury has less to do with the written law then with location, location, location.
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Old 06-29-2020, 05:42 PM
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Here i would get an atta boy from the sheriff and country attorney for shooting a fire bomber j
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:31 PM
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I can't speak for everyone in every thread, but in the context of this thread and the scenario presented within, my answer is simple...

Because someone who is going to throw Molotov Cocktails at you or your home isn't the sort who is going to back down because that's not the behavior a streetcorner thug looking for an easy target, it's the behavior of a motivated attacker whose doing it out of hate or just for the thrill of it.

It seems like a pretty straightforward kill or be killed situation to me.

But hey, if you can think of another way to stop some maniac armed with a molotov cocktail from setting fire to you, your family, and/or your home without killing him, then I would sincerely like to hear it because obviously I'd rather not have to shoot someone.
Maybe if you are a really, really good shot you could just shoot it out of his hand like the Lone Ranger?


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Old 06-29-2020, 10:46 PM
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The term "Reasonable person" is open ended and it appears in many laws. It leaves a huge stumbling block as what is and what isn't a reasonable person. Ask 100 people to define reasonable person, you will get dozens and dozens of definitions.
The reasonable persons are the ones sitting in the jury box. What everyone else thinks is irrelevant.
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:20 PM
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You go out for a late night bike ride/walk and as you round the corner three clowns are lighting and ready to throw MCs at your home. No one is inside except for your pets.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:46 AM
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You go out for a late night bike ride/walk and as you round the corner three clowns are lighting and ready to throw MCs at your home. No one is inside except for your pets.
In Illinois? Shoot 'em. You can use deadly force if they are committing a forcible felony.

"Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

From a practical standpoint, you'll be better off if you're not in Cook county (Chicago)
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Old 06-30-2020, 03:05 AM
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You go out for a late night bike ride/walk and as you round the corner three clowns are lighting and ready to throw MCs at your home. No one is inside except for your pets.
Kentucky Revised Statutes

503.080 Protection of property.

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:

(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.

Sounds like "attempting to commit arson of a dwelling" to me.
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:55 AM
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I don't know jest what anyone else would do when confronted with a fire bomber.....

I do know, if'n I'm able to respond....they'll be having their saddle sent home.

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Old 06-30-2020, 10:28 AM
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I had to laugh at "mazel tov" cocktail. One of my Jewish pals from HS will be getting a call about that one.

Civil litigation risk: that also depends on the local legal culture. In many states now, the fact that the offender/decedent was committing a crime and injured by resistance to that may preclude civil recovery. It may even preclude filing, and expose a plaintiff's attorney to frivolous pleading sanctions and Bar discipline. Be aware that your homeowner's insurance may not cover you. These are among the reason that post as I do about defense of home in layers - anything that makes your house less appealing to a criminal is a good idea. Lights, fences, dogs; all of the above. If an uninvited person can get to your door or feels comfortable trying, you are likely on the wrong path. If someone gets shot at my house, that's after going over a 6' fence with padlocked gates, forcing an opening, and getting past two rottweilers.

There is something I regularly post about: you need to know as much as possible about the dynamics of violent encounters and how well or poorly firearms will work, among other topics WELL BEFORE the force incident. You need to be able to articulate the underlying knowledge - what is learned later is not relevant or admissible. I have suggested in other posts a few books. While they are directed at LE encounters, much of the knowledge of ballistics and the like is the same.

Understand that the odds of a plaintiff's attorney lying are staggering. I see that all the time in the police setting. The odds of a defense attorney not knowing enough are also staggering. Most prosecutors don't know beans about use of force, either. It's maybe an hour of class time in law school, and the arcana is significant. I have no idea how many hours of reading, classes and other study I have done - likely well over 500, quite possibly a lot more. If there are 1000 lawyers in the US who know enough about use of force to open their cakeholes without showing that they are below the level of Billy Madison, I'd be amazed. You don't want me to do bankruptcy cases - and I am smart enough to shut up. Heck, I don't know enough to make a recommendation for a lawyer in that arena - but at least I know it.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:31 AM
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The term "Reasonable person" is open ended and it appears in many laws. It leaves a huge stumbling block as what is and what isn't a reasonable person. Ask 100 people to define reasonable person, you will get dozens and dozens of definitions.
In each case, the "reasonable person" is ultimately your jury.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:51 AM
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In Illinois? Shoot 'em. You can use deadly force if they are committing a forcible felony.

"Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

From a practical standpoint, you'll be better off if you're not in Cook county (Chicago)
"You go out for a late night bike ride/walk and as you round the corner three clowns are lighting and ready to throw MCs at your home. No one is inside except for your pets."

I believe the opposite. No one's life is in danger so I don't think you have the right to shoot them in Illinois. I could be wrong.
Now if someone was inside the building being firebombed that would be a different story.

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Old 06-30-2020, 09:30 PM
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I really like my dogs and cats, I do not like people who burn down other peoples property. I even like my gold fish more than I like arsonists.

If somebody around here shot somebody throwing a fire bomb at a house the sheriff would NOT ask many questions and the county attorney wouldn't even think of trying to find a jury.

Nobody around here is going to go throwing any fire bombs unless they are nuts or have a serious death wish.

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Old 06-30-2020, 11:27 PM
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I think you’d be fine shooting a person about to burn your house down. Especially since it could spread to the neighbors as well.

I believe I would confront the person at gunpoint and point out the error of their ways. I would then act as indicated.
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  #49  
Old 07-01-2020, 12:51 AM
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Sn attack with a wrapon is an attack with a wrapon, your dwelling, your car, your business, anyplace you happen to be. So I would think you could shoot someone throwing fire bombs at you but not just at property, in most states.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:28 PM
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Montana codes state i can use force to sop a a felony or trespass of property. My wife an attorney in the state agrees that the county attorney wouldn't even begin to bring charges.
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