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Old 07-04-2020, 08:15 PM
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I am reconsidering adding pepper spray to my carry equipment when I leave the house.
Having retired from LE but still living in the same town where I was stationed, I have always considered the possibility of a confrontation with an old suspect/defendant as a possibility.
However with today's current climate, some other folks seem to have become emboldened to challenge everyone for some perceived wrong.
Now being retired, I recognize that I no longer have a need to interact with these people and I will go out of my way to avoid them but some of the confrontations we are seeing, these idiots just will not take no, go away, for an answer.
No, I do not frequent bars or spots normally associated with less than civilized behavior, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. You are just as likely to be accosted in the grocery parking lot or at the gas pumps.
I am rapidly approaching my 62nd birthday and never was much of a boxer/fighter, (in the academy, during boxing week, an instructor noted that I could take a punch . . . lots of them). I can now envision a greater need to have a non-lethal option at my disposal.
I am always armed when it is permissible, so that is covered but it feels like having a non-lethal option might be prudent until things calm down.
Yes, I do carry a cell phone and will call proper authorities but I do not want to be looking at a phone when the threat is already closing the distance.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
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Old 07-04-2020, 08:21 PM
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I think it's a good option to have. I've often thought about carrying pepper spray, but I have respiratory issues and I'm concerned that if I end up getting exposed it could end up worse for me than my attacker.

From what I've read, Fox Labs is often recommended as a good pepper spray.
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Old 07-04-2020, 08:39 PM
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First Defense Mk6 are great for Plain Clothes work when I was still in the job. (Classified as a Prohibited Weapon for this State in live in).
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Old 07-04-2020, 08:45 PM
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Pepper spray is not a bad interim weapon if you have the time and distance to use it. As a former LEO, you know that the concept of "Necessary Force" carries a lot of weight when the DA decides on charges or not.

While pepper spray may not be viable in a threat to life and limb, it is a nice option if the situation allows it.

Oh, and by the way for those who have not suffered it's effects, keep the wind to your back if you can before spraying.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:08 PM
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A small container of pepper gel is about the size of and lighter than a pistol magazine. A really good idea to have as a defensive option.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:20 PM
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I much prefer the Taser C2. The perp gets a 30second ride, giving you ...hopefully...enough time to get away and call in your attack from a safer spot.

Whatever you do , don't go for one of those pistol-style OC launcher guns....

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Old 07-04-2020, 10:22 PM
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I carry and ride with Ruger pepper spray/gel mix . Living in Texas they have changed knife and brass knuckles regulations. I'm considering adding the brass knuckles. I'm older than you
And have no desire to be in a street fight. Much rather evade and escape but if I couldn't have means to defend. Firearm last resort unless you are chasing me with a knife!!
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Old 07-04-2020, 11:05 PM
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When I went through the academy, our class was the second to get a higher rating OC exposure. We carry 10%, old exposure was under 1%... we got like 5%.

That being said, I will not count on OC after that. I managed fine, until we had to decontaminate... which adding water sucked. I lost all respect for it as a less lethal option. It may work well for some, but I donít want to consider it working, and have someone like myself... who isnít as affected by it. Add in I work in a windy environment, and would likely get other officers exposed, I donít carry it. At least the taser has red dots to intimidate the person into giving up.

I actually just pulled the OC and pouch out of the safe, since another officer wants it. Need to bring it in this week.
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Old 07-04-2020, 11:59 PM
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I have been looking at pepper gel, less chance to get it on you.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:02 AM
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If I may give a non-LEO opinion. I live in a state where self-defense is not a protected right, and the tools of that denied right can get you a felony conviction with prison time.

Fortunately, I possess a non-resident CWP for when I travel in FREE America. Being disabled, I can't carry a full compliment of non-lethal defensive options. Yes, a taser can be effective, but what if you are acosted by multiple threats? I also fear that some kind of spray would require the threats to get too close for comfort.

I don't think that I project myself as a threat, but perhaps more an aire of confidence. Being disabled with a noticeable limp and cane, I (unintentionally) project myself more as an easy target/victim.

I don't go out looking for trouble, but I also don't want any of my defensive tools to fall out of my possession or control. As a result, anyone that presents themselves from the start as a threat needs to be viewed as a dangerous threat from the start. It really does "oscillate air inwardly between the lips" when you are disabled and have to defend yourself and your family.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:13 AM
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Like you I'm a retired LEO still living in the general area that I worked in. I have bumped into a few of my prior "customers" but no problems ensued. While I'm always armed, I keep a can of Fox 5.3 in my vehicles. I see it as an option for that big gray area that falls between polite conversation and shooting.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:24 AM
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As long as you're using it as an addition to your existing EDC which already includes a firearm, it sounds like a good idea.

Another alternative to consider is a Stun Gun which is potentially more incapacitating than Pepper Spray and perhaps might be viewed as a less violent alternative as as well -- A quick electric shock that knocks someone on their butt, but causes no lasting effects unlike Pepper Spray which leaves burning liquid in someone's eyes which must be promptly rinsed out and causes pain/irritation for hours afterwards.

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Old 07-05-2020, 07:50 AM
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I carry some every day on my walks on the greenway trails in my hood.
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:31 AM
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I nearly always carry pepper spray. Wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of it
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:08 AM
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I carry a small POM pepper spray canister clipped to a pocket, or a sap...sometimes both. It's good to have less lethal options if the situation allows.
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:30 AM
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I carry a Pepper Blaster. It costs me $ 10 a year to carry, but could be the difference between prison and freedom in a confrontation. I think it prudent to carry a non-lethal alternative to lethal force. I urge all retired officers to have both.

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Old 07-05-2020, 09:54 AM
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I've always been an advocate/fan of a less than lethal option. Being old school, (and old), I'd be happy carrying my old blackjack. It was useful helping undesirables see reason back in the day. Sadly, it's not legal. Till it is, if it ever is, it stays in the safe.
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Old 07-05-2020, 10:54 AM
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OP... Thereís no substitute for situational awareness and having having a plan....When the Youngest went to College, I researched self defense sprays and got her a Kimber Pepper Blaster...Two shots effective to 13 feet..... I would get two...One to fire at a target and see how it functions, and if itís going to work for you and the second to actually carry.

Iím over 65, so any assault/ battery on Me is a Felony. I do have my Kel- lite between the Seat and Drivers door.

When I first started in 1971, If You saw someone wearing a heavy coat in 95 degree weather having a conversation with a Telephone Pole, You put them in the Unit and transported them to a Hospital and that was it.... now they self medicate and apparently theyíre all out there running loose, green/orange, blue hair and wearing costumes. Stay Safe.
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Old 07-05-2020, 11:22 AM
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I always carry Pepper Spray. I was walking and a big dog came at me and started circling and growling. I tried yelling go home, with no effect. I like dogs and didnít want to shoot someoneís pet. I tried to walk away slowly but he kept circling and growling. I had never used Pepper Spray before. It was a hot breezy day and I pointed it at the dog about 15 feet at the most away. It came out in a strong straight stream. It went right over his head. I thought darn I missed. Before I had a chance to shoot again he started sneezing. His eyes started to get big and wide then he started blinking and sneezing. No more nasty dog. He just sat down and I got out of there. If it works that well with a miss it should work good with a direct hit.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:06 PM
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For the same reasons LE carry non-lethal options, itís a good idea for those who carry heat to do the same - because nothing ever goes according to how who you imagined it will. There are just too many variables.

As an instructor of both chemical weapons and Taser, I carry OC, especially in areas where folks are more heavily dressed or there may be more than one perp. Both Taser and spray have their strengths and weaknesses, but pepper spray allows multiple shots during the same assault, it can be had in a smaller package and is a little more flexible when it comes to shot placement.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by haywood View Post
I always carry Pepper Spray. I was walking and a big dog came at me and started circling and growling. I tried yelling go home, with no effect. I like dogs and didnít want to shoot someoneís pet. I tried to walk away slowly but he kept circling and growling. I had never used Pepper Spray before. It was a hot breezy day and I pointed it at the dog about 15 feet at the most away. It came out in a strong straight stream. It went right over his head. I thought darn I missed. Before I had a chance to shoot again he started sneezing. His eyes started to get big and wide then he started blinking and sneezing. No more nasty dog. He just sat down and I got out of there. If it works that well with a miss it should work good with a direct hit.
Unfortunately, there are also many times where it is not effective against dogs, as well. So, don't feel overconfident in regard to its effectiveness. (Though I applaud your decision...I am the same when it comes to dogs, by and large. I love mine and try to treat others well.)

Funny anecdote...

A friend on another forum said that when he got in a tangle with an aggressive dog, the thing that worked was when he sprayed the dog's butt.

Apparently it lit a fire under its *** and that was enough to end the scrum.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:55 PM
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I like ****** pepper blaster II. A two shot blaster, the gel travels 110 mph (13 feet), unaffected by temperature, wind, or the rain. Will not blowback in your face on a windy day. Have not used it except for practicing with an expired blaster (5-year expiration date). YouTube has some videos of idiots volunteering to be tested with it (too funny).
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:40 PM
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Good Post mckenney99!
Thanks VictorLouis for your post! Anyone using that device is asking for a Law suite. Why would a Police Department even consider it? JMO (comments welcome).
The Kimber Pepper Blaster is another item asking for a Law suite. Spray at 112 Mph and only 2 shots! Up close you could possibly blind someone and if you miss (you already committed assault), you are now the aggressor and you really póód someone off. JMO (comments welcome).
I carry Pepper Wildfire 18%. 6-8 one second shots. Effective range 8-10ft (works great on attacking dogs, ask how I know) and a 4Ē knife when working outside around the house (Maybe a snub nose Taurus 856 UL 38, you never know)!
When off property, a S&W.

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Old 07-05-2020, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
Unfortunately, there are also many times where it is not effective against dogs, as well. So, don't feel overconfident in regard to its effectiveness. (Though I applaud your decision...I am the same when it comes to dogs, by and large. I love mine and try to treat others well.)

Funny anecdote...

A friend on another forum said that when he got in a tangle with an aggressive dog, the thing that worked was when he sprayed the dog's butt.

Apparently it lit a fire under its *** and that was enough to end the scrum.
The pepper spray comes first. It worked. If it doesnít. One of Two carry guns will be tried next.
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Old 07-06-2020, 07:51 AM
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I have been looking at pepper gel, less chance to get it on you.
until they go to cover their face and catch the gel/foam in their hands and throw it back at you. Ya I know it sounds like Hollywood bs yet saw it happen, the end result was every one got maced as normal. I have watched mace fail to slow em down let alone stop em too often to put much stock in it. On the other hand it's better than a harsh look.

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Old 07-06-2020, 08:14 AM
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I can't remember which he was, a Fed or a State Police Leo, who told me, ahem, as a general rule the darker the complexion the less effective pepper spray was. Which is why it's nice to have spray and shock as options. This was several years ago, when this was a less lethal conversation to have, career wise.
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mckenney99 View Post
I am reconsidering adding pepper spray to my carry equipment when I leave the house.
Having retired from LE but still living in the same town where I was stationed, I have always considered the possibility of a confrontation with an old suspect/defendant as a possibility.
However with today's current climate, some other folks seem to have become emboldened to challenge everyone for some perceived wrong.
Now being retired, I recognize that I no longer have a need to interact with these people and I will go out of my way to avoid them but some of the confrontations we are seeing, these idiots just will not take no, go away, for an answer.
No, I do not frequent bars or spots normally associated with less than civilized behavior, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. You are just as likely to be accosted in the grocery parking lot or at the gas pumps.
I am rapidly approaching my 62nd birthday and never was much of a boxer/fighter, (in the academy, during boxing week, an instructor noted that I could take a punch . . . lots of them). I can now envision a greater need to have a non-lethal option at my disposal.
I am always armed when it is permissible, so that is covered but it feels like having a non-lethal option might be prudent until things calm down.
Yes, I do carry a cell phone and will call proper authorities but I do not want to be looking at a phone when the threat is already closing the distance.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
I completely agree with this. The scumbag anarchists of today will more likely need an attitude adjustment with OC spray than to get shot, so I've also started carrying OC spray every day. If that doesn't work, or a hostile crowd forms, you can always go to the firearm at that point.

As to aggressive big dogs, IMHO they get shot. There's no reason to screw around with that, and you're not going to end up in prison for shooting it (in the vast majority of places where you're carrying legally).
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Old 07-06-2020, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mckenney99 View Post
I am reconsidering adding pepper spray to my carry equipment when I leave the house.
Having retired from LE but still living in the same town where I was stationed, I have always considered the possibility of a confrontation with an old suspect/defendant as a possibility.
However with today's current climate, some other folks seem to have become emboldened to challenge everyone for some perceived wrong.
Now being retired, I recognize that I no longer have a need to interact with these people and I will go out of my way to avoid them but some of the confrontations we are seeing, these idiots just will not take no, go away, for an answer.
No, I do not frequent bars or spots normally associated with less than civilized behavior, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. You are just as likely to be accosted in the grocery parking lot or at the gas pumps.
I am rapidly approaching my 62nd birthday and never was much of a boxer/fighter, (in the academy, during boxing week, an instructor noted that I could take a punch . . . lots of them). I can now envision a greater need to have a non-lethal option at my disposal.
I am always armed when it is permissible, so that is covered but it feels like having a non-lethal option might be prudent until things calm down.
Yes, I do carry a cell phone and will call proper authorities but I do not want to be looking at a phone when the threat is already closing the distance.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
Read this then thought about it then ordered for me and the wife. Thanks for a different yet effective approach
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Old 07-06-2020, 05:31 PM
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Read this then thought about it then ordered for me and the wife. Thanks for a different yet effective approach
When I did this, I ordered an extra one that we could practice with. Not on each other! I wanted her to have a feel for the mechanism and to see how the spray actually came out.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:17 PM
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Pepper spray is tool with mixed effectiveness. I know a lot of competent cops who ended up in the hospital using pepper spray (per training/policy). They had successful to-the-face deployments on bad guys, but the bad guys decided not to quit fighting. Today, most of my local agencies rarely ever use pepper spray or batons outside of riots and the TASER is the 90% solution. (TASERs seem to have a much higher likelihood of working, but still aren’t infallible)

I also can think of at least two dogs shot by officers when pepper spray didn’t deter Cujo. Dogs learn, either to avoid pepper spray or that they can fight through it too. If hitting a person is hard, trying getting a good deployment on an attacking dog.

The FBI has never issued pepper spray to my knowledge. Maybe one of the past/serving agents can correct me, but that is also a clue if the DOJ won’t issue it.

That all said, I have pepper spray at close hand in my vehicles. I also sometimes carry pepper on my body, but always as an adjunct to a striking device. Pepper spray is a tricky item to deploy and has a strong psychological impact, but that can be way overstated and likely to fail when needed most.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:00 AM
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I'd forgotten about this one. Sean Hannity has endorsed it on his show, but I don't whether or not the company is a paying advertiser. In a jurisdiction where one can't get a handgun, I think something like this may be an option. ....

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Old 07-07-2020, 06:02 AM
VictorLouis VictorLouis is offline
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...when working outside around the house (Maybe a snub nose Taurus 856 UL 38..)!
Nice choice. Can you advise what those black plastic arms on your kydex rigs are for?
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:15 AM
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VictorLouis: The one on the left is a M&P Bodyguard 380 (with Precision One 90gr XTP bullets).
The one on the right is a M&P 9mm EZ ( with 124 gr HST bullets or Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P). Both carried AIWB in Vedder holsters.
One or the other is my away from home carry.

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Last edited by Execpro; 07-07-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 07-22-2020, 11:36 PM
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I donít think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21í in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if thatís the only option. Period!! JMO

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Old 07-22-2020, 11:57 PM
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The FBI has never issued pepper spray to my knowledge. Maybe one of the past/serving agents can correct me, but that is also a clue if the DOJ wonít issue it.
I was an FBI SA and we were issued pepper spray as far back as 1991, but werenít required to carry it. I think they issued it so the Academy guys could experience the pure joy of spraying us with it. They sprayed me again when I went back for Firearms Instructor school.

The only time I used it on a person was to get a big naked guy out of a closet. It worked great for that.

I used it on rez dogs with mixed success. I gave it up when a canister exploded in my hot car. We were explicitly told not to leave it in the car, but I figured - what could happen?

After that I went to an ASP baton for rez dogs. Just snapping it open worked most of the time. Shooting dogs generates bad will and tons of paperwork. Iíve had to do it and it sucks. I like dogs.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:25 AM
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I donít think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21í in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if thatís the only option. Period!! JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
In that case, it's not the pepper spray, but not knowing what level of force to use. Being in that situation and having pepper spray doesn't mean you have to use it. You can go straight to the gun if that's justified.

Which brings up another issue. If you're going to carry pepper spray and a gun, you better practice with both and know which tool to use under which circumstances.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Execpro View Post
I donít think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21í in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if thatís the only option. Period!! JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
As ContinentalOp said, it really does depend on the situation.

If you are a 200 pound fit male being accosted by a similar aggressive male who isn't displaying a weapon and you shoot him, you better be prepared to spend a good chunk of your life behind bars. That just is what it is.

On the other hand, if it's multiple aggressors, or there's a big difference in the parties of a one-on-one (a fit 20-something attacking an overweight 60-something), then that changes the argument that going to lethal force immediately could be justified.
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