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  #51  
Old 07-18-2020, 01:28 AM
sotexas sotexas is offline
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Foolish me for thinking a missed shot and a warning shot were the same thing
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
If you’re thinking that you would confront a car prowler, think about this for a minute.

Your car is insured. If it isn’t, it can be replaced. You however cannot be replaced.

How much would it cost to replace your car versus possibly having to defend yourself in court?

In Washington State it is illegal to use a gun to protect your car. Don’t let anger dictate your reaction. Stay inside and call the police. Several car owners have gone to jail for murder and assault with a deadly weapon in this state over the last 10 years or so because they confronted a car prowler.
By all means, lets protect criminals from harm.
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
Let's correct the wording. A grizzly is about to charge you.
Again, how would you know this? Warning shots are stupid, man or beast. If it needs shooting, shoot it. If you are not prepared to shoot your target, dont deploy the gun, leave it holstered or in the case of a long gun, shouldered.
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:14 PM
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By all means, lets protect criminals from harm.
In most states you cant use deadly for e to protect property. Bad guys know this, you should too. If you take a gun to efend property, you risk a shooting. Shoot an unarmed guy stealing something,Your call. Good luck with that btw.
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:20 PM
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So you catch the guy breaking out your car window to steal your stuff. You point your shotgun at him at tell him not to move, the police are on the way. He looks at you, spits on ground, and says, "So you're going to shoot me?", then turns and just walks away, probably with an expletive. What are you going to do?

If you haven't thought about this, you should stay inside.

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Old 07-18-2020, 12:47 PM
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So you catch the guy breaking out your car window to steal your stuff. You point your shotgun at him at tell him not to move, the police are on the way. He looks at you, spits on ground, and says, "So you're going to shoot me?", then turns and just walks away, probably with an expletive. What are you going to do?

If you haven't thought about this, you should stay inside.
Or he walks toward you unarmed?

You just put yourself in a no win situation. Just because you’re armed means that you win.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:31 PM
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Do not get into life threatening situations by choice. In today’s world of activist DAs and Judges the law abiding citizen is the one in legal jeopardy.
Call the cops, collect insurance. If you don’t have insurance it’s still cheaper than legal bills by far. The gun only comes out if there is reasonable fear for your life. Then you shoot the bad guy- dead. The law is so twisted now that holding people at gun point can be turned against you, on several different charges.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:29 PM
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By all means, lets protect criminals from harm.
That wasn't Kanew's point at all...
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:40 PM
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He could possibly also have kept a safe distance and used a very bright light to illuminate the suspect.
This, along with calling 911, is excellent advice. More than likely the perp would have just ran off. And if he hadn't, and tried attacking the guy with the light, it would have been a clear case of self-defense, and the 911 dispatcher would have caught the entire thing.

Our bedroom is upstairs overlooking our parking lot. We can hear everything that goes on out there, and this would be my course of action in that event.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:30 PM
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That wasn't Kanew's point at all...
I think that was his way of agreeing with me.
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Old 07-18-2020, 07:06 PM
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Default "HEY"! BANG!

"HEY!" BANG!...".HEY!" BANG!


That's so effective as is shown here.


"HEY!" CLICK!

That's even better/
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:50 PM
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Or he walks toward you unarmed?
You just put yourself in a no win situation. Just because you’re armed means that you win.
I disagree. You are armed. You've illuminated the yard with bright lights. He decides to stroll over, to close the distance with you. He can produce a weapon or charge you and attempt to take yours. Maybe you could take him in a fair fight but you have your fighting abilities limited by your need to protect your weapon. You've got no back up or anyone else to assist you in overpowering him.
One of the lessons of Vietnam is not to be drawn into a fight where you can not use all the weapons at your disposal. It applies to personal combat as well.
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:49 PM
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Or he walks toward you unarmed?

You just put yourself in a no win situation. Just because you’re armed means that you win.
Explain that one? Shootimg an unarmed giy be ause you brought a gun to a fist fight is not a wn. Ask Zimmerman.
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Old 07-19-2020, 09:43 AM
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I understand the concept of staying inside and waiting on police. But is there a law that says I have to stay in my house cowering? I have every right to go out in my yard anytime of the day with my weapon in hand. Going outside on my own property any time I wish is within my rights.

Rosewood
There have been any number of criminal cases that started with the homeowner leaving his house to investigate a noise and ended with homeowner being charged as the aggressor.

But you do you.
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:10 AM
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I disagree. You are armed. You've illuminated the yard with bright lights. He decides to stroll over, to close the distance with you. He can produce a weapon or charge you and attempt to take yours. Maybe you could take him in a fair fight but you have your fighting abilities limited by your need to protect your weapon. You've got no back up or anyone else to assist you in overpowering him.
One of the lessons of Vietnam is not to be drawn into a fight where you can not use all the weapons at your disposal. It applies to personal combat as well.
I completely understand disparity of force. In this state it is not legal to defend your vehicle with a gun. So by going outside with a gun to investigate a car prowler, you just put yourself in a no win situation. In the last 10 or so years people have gone to jail for murder or assault with a deadly weapon while confronting car prowlers.

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Explain that one? Shootimg an unarmed giy be ause you brought a gun to a fist fight is not a wn. Ask Zimmerman.
Thats my point. I didn’t word it very well.
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  #66  
Old 07-19-2020, 10:39 AM
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So, everyone on here hears a noise in their yard at night, they are going to peek out the window and call the cops to come and investigate that it was a raccoon that knocked over the trash can. I don't buy it. I bet the majority of folks on here would go out and investigate just like every read blooded male would.

I have every right to go out side my house and see what is going on armed or not whether you think it is a good idea or not.

With your gun on you hip, you are not "using deadly force" until you point at someone. If I am standing in my yard and a perp moves toward me after I warned him to stop, I have every right to draw my weapon shoot him because I was in fear of my life. You didn't instigate it, you are on your property, he did, he is trespassing.

I am not saying staying in my home and waiting on cops is a bad idea, I am saying I shouldn't have to and do not think I am required to do so in my state.

Rosewood
I agree with some of what you said. But you’re missing the point.

Just because you have the legal right to something doesn’t mean you should.

Think of this for a minute. You’re in court. You were just sworn in now you’re trying to tell a judge and jury why you shot someone on your property. How’s that’s going to go? You may think that you were justified and what you did was legal and justified.

Or, you’re lying in a hospital bed with your wife sitting next to you. She says “damn him! I told him to stay inside and call the cops! But he wouldn’t listen and got himself shot over a stupid car!”

The point? Nobody says you need to cower. But be smart and think before you act. Know you’re local laws.

I agree that most of us have gone out to investigate. Just know that doing so may not turn out well despite your intentions.
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:41 AM
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I'm trying to come up with a reasonable response to this topic.

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I've read several incident reports where warning shots were successful against bears and vicious dogs. Anyone have any concerns to add about warning shots against animals
The first thing I have to say is that warning shots against humans versus warning shots against animals (of any kind) is two completely separate topics. I'd like to recommend two books Mark of the Grizzly by Scott McMillion and Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance by Stephen Herrero to anyone who would like further information.

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So, everyone on here hears a noise in their yard at night, they are going to peek out the window and call the cops to come and investigate that it was a raccoon that knocked over the trash can. I don't buy it. I bet the majority of folks on here would go out and investigate just like every read blooded male would.

I have every right to go out side my house and see what is going on armed or not whether you think it is a good idea or not.

With your gun on you hip, you are not "using deadly force" until you point at someone. If I am standing in my yard and a perp moves toward me after I warned him to stop, I have every right to draw my weapon shoot him because I was in fear of my life. You didn't instigate it, you are on your property, he did, he is trespassing.

I am not saying staying in my home and waiting on cops is a bad idea, I am saying I shouldn't have to and do not think I am required to do so in my state.

Rosewood
The second thing is leaving the security of your home to confront a tresspasser is almost NEVER a good idea. "I was in fear of my life." isn't a magic get out of jail free card. The standard is a reasonable fear of losing your life and you aren't the one who gets to decide whether or not your fear is reasonable.

I've told this story before, two guys tried to rob me right outside my home one night. I won't bore you with the whole story again but there are some key points. First even after they knew I was armed they still pushed it. They didn't back up until I drew and told them I was about to shoot them. Second, even then they weren't visibly intimidated in the least. They walked some distance away and one of them turned around,laughed at me and told me to F-off then kept walking away.

I didn't go out to confront them, I was on my way to work and they came to me but the point remains that a lot of criminals aren't scared of your Mighty Boomstick, you're very likely not the first person that's ever pointed one at them. Your first encounter is probably their HUNDREDTH.

Finally, in case you missed it TEOWAWKI has happened. This isn't the world we knew even six months ago. I wouldn't waste my time threatening to call the cops for a minor property crime because THEY'RE NOT COMING and the bad guys know it. I would call the cops for the police report and CFS number for my insurance if nothing else but I wouldn't bother to tell the crook I was doing it.

If I still lived in a house I'd most likely hit the panic alarm on my car and start turning on outside lights but that would be the extent of my response.

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Old 07-19-2020, 11:01 AM
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Think of this for a minute. You’re in court. You were just sworn in now you’re trying to tell a judge and jury why you shot someone on your property. How’s that’s going to go? You may think that you were justified and what you did was legal and justified.
Think about THIS for a minute, by the time you're getting sworn in in court you're probably bankrupt and probably going to be paying legal bills for the rest of your life.
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  #69  
Old 07-19-2020, 11:06 AM
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Think about THIS for a minute, by the time you're getting sworn in in court you're probably bankrupt and probably going to be paying legal bills for the rest of your life.
AFTER you make bail. Or not.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:06 AM
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As I have said before on this forum "just because some thing is legal, does not mean it is the smartest thing for you to do." As for warning shots, my department banned them about thirty years ago.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:14 AM
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AFTER you make bail. Or not.
Good point. Making bail generally requires you to mortgage your house. That means you won't be able to mortgage your house to pay for the lawyer.

I can't speak for other jurisdictions but since my wife used to work for the Colorado state public defender I will speak for them.

You don't get to decide whether or not you qualify for a public defender they do. The public defender's office makes that determination and they will make you sell everything you own to pay for your own lawyer before they assign you a public defender.

So, you sell everything you own and put a private attorney on retainer and after that money is gone he drops your case because you can't pay.

Then the process of assigning you a public defender starts and they give you your case to an attorney who probably has a hundred cases on his plate and is taking your case in the middle of the proceedings. How good of a defense do you think he's going to mount for you?

PS let me know how asking your employer for all the time off you're going to need to deal with court proceedings works out for you.

And we haven't even got to the wrongful death lawsuit that is almost certainly coming yet

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Old 07-19-2020, 01:37 PM
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When I moved in with my ex... she lived up a long dark dirt driveway with four power poles between us and the street. We had a number of "lost" drivers show up in our yard. I had done extensive wiring up through the attic, breezeway and attached shop/garage and to control the nine overlapping halogen flood lights from inside the house. I could make the yard look like daylight. My husky mix would go nuts outside on his 75 foot overhead cable run.
These drivers would always claim to be lost or wrong turn or looking for a neighbor (who wouldn't confirm to expecting guests).
The lights were also handy when tending the horses at night.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:45 AM
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That is it. I am selling all of my guns and keeping 911 on speed dial. If I ever were to defend myself, I will lose everything. Better to be dead or hope the cops make it in time.....
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:18 AM
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That is it. I am selling all of my guns and keeping 911 on speed dial. If I ever were to defend myself, I will lose everything. Better to be dead or hope the cops make it in time.....
Maybe you should stop being a drama queen and actually try to understand what people are posting, because NOBODY is saying that.
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:32 AM
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That is it. I am selling all of my guns and keeping 911 on speed dial. If I ever were to defend myself, I will lose everything. Better to be dead or hope the cops make it in time.....
Welcome to reality dude. You should plant it in your brain that if you ever shoot somebody and the circumstances are ambiguous in the slightest (as in you left a place relative safety to go confront the bad guy) life as you know it is over.

I highly recommend that you go buy a copy of The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca and read it

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Old 07-20-2020, 11:27 AM
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Maybe you should stop being a drama queen and actually try to understand what people are posting, because NOBODY is saying that.
I was not being that way. If you read through my post, I clearly said I didn't necessarily say it was a good idea to go outside and confront someone, but I said you should be able to and that there was no law saying I couldn't go in my yard armed.

Folks kept ignoring where I said it was probably not a good idea and kept telling me how my life would be ruined.

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Old 07-20-2020, 11:29 AM
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Welcome to reality dude. You should plant it in your brain that if you ever shoot somebody and the circumstances are ambiguous in the slightest (as in you left a place relative safety to go confront the bad guy) life as you know it is over.

I highly recommend that you go buy a copy of The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca and read it
Fully aware, probably read more books and seen more shows in self defense and the repercussions than most on this thread. I know that. Most folks didn't read my earlier post thoroughly before telling me how much trouble I would be in. Seemed to think I was going to go out my front door Rambo. I never said I would.

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Old 07-20-2020, 12:16 PM
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Fully aware, probably read more books and seen more shows in self defense and the repercussions than most on this thread. I know that. Most folks didn't read my earlier post thoroughly before telling me how much trouble I would be in. Seemed to think I was going to go out my front door Rambo. I never said I would.

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Old 07-25-2020, 01:16 AM
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For LEOs in general, they're forbidden. That doesn't mean they don't happen but it takes a situation to understand one. An officer when I was working with Athens PD was on the pavement getting his *** kicked. He torched one of and ended the struggle. He wasn't being attacked with a deadly weapon, but he was out weighed and fighting a college guy in good shape. He had to answer a few questions as ne acted out of SOP but he didn't get fired and didn't get his *** kicked.

Another time, my deputy took a prisoner to a doctor's office in an adjoining county for a medical procedure and the nurse wouldn't let the deputy be present for the procedure and wouldn't let the prisoner be handcuffed. So he escaped. Deputy fired a warning shot for no effect. We were in a liberal county where no warning shots were authorized and i got calls from the Powers that Be kinda offended at us. We did nothing. The convict wasn't a fleeing murderer in which case a body shot would be justified.

BUT...11 years ago, I was sitting on the John reading a magazine "Sheriff" I believed. One article dealt with warning shots and most were discouraged, but not all. In the mid west in barfighs when highly macho Hispanics get into bad fights, when a cop is called he'll sometimes fire a round in the ceiling and this ends the fight, as it gives both parties excuse stop fighting gracefully. without losing face. many bars put plates in the ceiling for shooting. This happens enough for bar owners to put up plates, which I find significant.

I hope you know one size fits all is not a solution. In the situations I mentioned, a warning shot would be far better than shooting the gi
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Old 07-25-2020, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
I was not being that way. If you read through my post, I clearly said I didn't necessarily say it was a good idea to go outside and confront someone, but I said you should be able to and that there was no law saying I couldn't go in my yard armed.

Folks kept ignoring where I said it was probably not a good idea and kept telling me how my life would be ruined.

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Maybe they weren't ignoring but not seeing. It's a forum don't have such lofty expectations
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Old 07-25-2020, 12:29 PM
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Just a cultural note:

You might not be aware that this “NO WARNING SHOTS!! EVER!!” seems to be a particular American thing.

Other countries actually require police officers to fire a warning shot before any aimed shots, unless the situation clearly doesn’t allow it. After a shooting, the burden of proof why a warning shot was not possible is usually on the officer. Looking at some statistics, German police fire more warning shots than aimed. Doesn’t seem to result in more dead officers. But of course bad guys hardly ever carry guns there, which may be part of the explanation.
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Old 07-25-2020, 12:55 PM
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One of our officers was a little too fearless. He chased 3 burglary suspects on foot into a swamp. Two of them jumped him *** deep in the swamp. He fired a round of 357 into the air. One perp kicked in the afterburners and ran off, the other surrendered. It could have gone very wrong for him.
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Old 07-25-2020, 05:58 PM
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If this current madness continues I think we’ll see a return to the ocassional unsanctioned warning shot, at least by non-LEO carriers. If you’re trying to stop a bunch of thugs who are stomping someone to death, standing to the side and saying “Hey fellas! Fellas! C’mon guys!” isn’t going to cut it.

Not recommending it, but I think we’ll see more of it.
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Old 07-26-2020, 04:39 PM
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If one is in and losing a hand to hand fight, it is likely a lethal force incident. If the one on the losing side is a cop, it clearly is. Just because most dullards don't grasp that doesn't make it not true.

You send a round downrange addressed "to whom it may concern", you have a real good chance of regretting it. I won't say NEVER, but I have never in 60 years on the planet and 40+ years of studying LE and use of force seen a situation in which a warning shot is a good idea.
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