Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:45 AM
oldbrownhat's Avatar
oldbrownhat oldbrownhat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pacific North-Wet
Posts: 727
Likes: 311
Liked 1,433 Times in 466 Posts
Default The risk of the warning shot

Article here

Bellingham, WA

A Sunnyland neighborhood resident armed with a gun reportedly attempted to stop a man carrying a knife from breaking into a car Saturday night but nearly had the gun pried from his hands and turned against him before police arrived.

Bellingham police booked Jesse Hill into Whatcom County Jail on suspicion of first-degree robbery, second-degree vehicle prowling, third-degree theft and obstructing a police officer. Jail records show he is being held in lieu of $200,000 bail.

Officers were called at 11:30 p.m. July 11 to the 900 block of East North Street for the report of an interrupted vehicle prowl, Lt. Claudia Murphy told The Bellingham Herald in an email.

The victim was alerted to someone being on his property by a security system, Murphy reported. The victim armed himself, went outside, saw Hill standing near his neighbor’s car and noticed that his own truck had already been broken into, as the interior lights were on.

The victim told Hill not to leave until the police arrived, Murphy wrote, but Hill tried to talk his way out of being caught and started to walk toward the victim with his arms stretched out.

The victim told Hill he would defend himself if Hill continued to approach, Murphy reported, but Hill continued, and the victim fired a warning shot.

Instead of stopping, Hill attacked the victim, Murphy wrote, and attempted to wrestle the gun from the victim’s hand. During the struggle, the victim said he could feel Hill trying to turn the gun into the victim’s body and feared Hill was going to shoot him.

As police arrived, Hill ran off with the victim and a neighbor, who also had been alerted to the vehicle prowl, in pursuit, Murphy reported.

Officers surrounded the area and located Hill lying on a roof with the knife still in his hand, Murphy reported. Hill was told to drop the knife, but he instead jumped off the roof and tried to run again, but fell over some lawn furniture.

Hill continued to hold the knife and was slow to comply with the officer’s commands to drop it, until more officers arrived and he was taken into custody, Murphy wrote, though he continued to resist.

The victim suffered an undetermined injury during the struggle with Hill and will have to visit a doctor, Murphy reported.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 07-16-2020, 12:15 PM
armorer951's Avatar
armorer951 armorer951 is offline
SWCA Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Evansville, Indiana USA
Posts: 4,806
Likes: 253
Liked 6,774 Times in 2,373 Posts
Default

Here's the homeowner's main problem in this scenario: "The victim armed himself, went outside, saw the (suspect) standing near his neighbor's car...."

This is a very dangerous decision. A better, safer course of action would be to arm yourself, stay inside your home, and, stay on the phone with the dispatcher while police respond, providing a description of the suspect and his location.

Suspects in these types of thefts and vehicle break in's are more than likely drunk or high during the incident, and as such can be very dangerous and unpredictable when confronted, especially when confronted by a homeowner. Confrontation and subsequent arrest should be left to the police.

In my experience, "warning shots" serve no useful purpose, and only make an already dangerous situation even more dangerous....possibly resulting in the injury or death of an innocent person or bystander.
__________________
Ret LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Last edited by armorer951; 07-16-2020 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-16-2020, 12:27 PM
oldbrownhat's Avatar
oldbrownhat oldbrownhat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pacific North-Wet
Posts: 727
Likes: 311
Liked 1,433 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Here's the homeowner's main problem in this scenario: "The victim armed himself, went outside, saw the (suspect) standing near his neighbor's car...."
Yes- very good advice and clearly shows a dangerous precedent in "playing cop." In this case, the homeowner wasn't in danger until he confronted the perp. I should have clarified that when I posted the article; I was thinking of a scenario when someone WAS initially in danger and fired a warning shot, which was not the case here. He could possibly also have kept a safe distance andused a very bright light to illuminate the suspect.


Thanks for bringing up the other side of the situation.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 07-16-2020, 12:30 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
SWCA Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Peoples Republic of Calif
Posts: 2,993
Likes: 485
Liked 2,662 Times in 1,127 Posts
Default

Warning shots are in almost all cases stupid and dangerous and are often illegal. They are, by definition, a discharge of a weapon when you are NOT in immediate peril. They have the potential of huge civil and criminal liability. DON'T DO IT.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:09 PM
mikerjf mikerjf is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 550
Likes: 282
Liked 724 Times in 294 Posts
Default

I've read several incident reports where warning shots were successful against bears and vicious dogs. Anyone have any concerns to add about warning shots against animals?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:18 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
I've read several incident reports where warning shots were successful against bears and vicious dogs. Anyone have any concerns to add about warning shots against animals?
Good question, I wonder what folks would say about you scaring the critter off in lieu of killing it. You can easily fire a warning shot into the ground safely.

Rosewood
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:22 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

I understand the concept of staying inside and waiting on police. But is there a law that says I have to stay in my house cowering? I have every right to go out in my yard anytime of the day with my weapon in hand. Going outside on my own property any time I wish is within my rights.

As for the neighbors yard, I can easily stand in my driveway and speak to someone rifling through my neighbors vehicle, I wouldn't have to leave my property to do so.


The way the cops are responding these days, no telling how long they would take. I had someone shooting in the narrow strip of woods behind my house twice in the last month at 10pm and 11pm. Called the LEOs both times, best I can tell, they never came out.

Rosewood
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:25 PM
elpac3's Avatar
elpac3 elpac3 is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Mpls, Minnesota
Posts: 719
Likes: 80
Liked 695 Times in 296 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
Warning shots are in almost all cases stupid and dangerous and are often illegal. They are, by definition, a discharge of a weapon when you are NOT in immediate peril. They have the potential of huge civil and criminal liability. DON'T DO IT.
In addition, in most jurisdictions, firing a warning shot may constitute assault with a deadly weapon. Also, going out to confront now takes away the "unwilling participant" clause in many cases and makes you the aggressor should things go south
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:28 PM
Injunbro Injunbro is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 291
Likes: 1,968
Liked 550 Times in 178 Posts
Default

Around here waiting for a LEO can be timed w/ a calendar, you deal w/ prowlers & break-ins on your own. Warning shots against 2-legged predators are a very bad idea... if you need to pull that gun use it or you didn't need to pull it @ all or you'll end up in a wrestling match. Guns are to do damage @ a distance, not hand-to-hand. Warning shots, like most loud noises, might work for animals.
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:37 PM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,564
Likes: 2,816
Liked 16,420 Times in 6,159 Posts
Default

This comes up often. What do you do when you point your gun at a bad guy, make demands and he doesn't follow those demands? The only correct answer is to shoot him. However, if the situation didn't necessitate him being shot, you're now the aggressor and headed to prison.

Never bring your gun out until you need to shoot. There is no exception to this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
I've read several incident reports where warning shots were successful against bears and vicious dogs. Anyone have any concerns to add about warning shots against animals?
Good question, I wonder what folks would say about you scaring the critter off in lieu of killing it. You can easily fire a warning shot into the ground safely.

Rosewood
It's a good question, but terrible advice. Warning shots are always bad. No, shooting into the ground is not safe. You could strike a rock or some other object and the resulting ricochet could kill someone or even the animal you intended to scare. If you want to scare an animal, make a loud noise, yell, clap, use an air horn, whatever, but do not take a warning shot. Again, if it's dangerous enough to require you to have your gun out, only use the gun to stop the animal.

Warning shots are always bad.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:40 PM
schutzen-jager schutzen-jager is offline
Suspended
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: peoples republic of New J
Posts: 601
Likes: 586
Liked 849 Times in 337 Posts
Default

warning shots by any LEO'S banned in this state for decades - totally illegal for anyone else also -
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:58 PM
Borderboss Borderboss is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 609
Likes: 357
Liked 977 Times in 347 Posts
Default

The homeowner did everything wrong. There isn't a single thing that he did that made any sense.

First, you don't go outside to engage a thief. Call the cops and let them deal with it. You're not in any danger, so why put yourself in danger to protect the few things you have stored in your car? Senseless in all situations.

Second, you never, ever, ever fire a warning shot. What warning are you giving, that you have a gun? Duh, the bad guy can see that. Are you warning that you'll shoot the bad guy if he comes any closer? You've already shown that you won't do that because you didn't shoot him when you legally could have, as he approach with a weapon displayed. So all you've done is illustrate that you're not serious about defending yourself, turning yourself into a target.

Which is exactly what happened here. The homeowner let a criminal with a deadly weapon get to touching distance and almost lost his life. This guy should sell all his guns and stop pretending that he's ready to protect himself. He clearly isn't.

Thanks to OldBrownHat for posting this. It's a superb example of what NOT to do.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:58 PM
moosedog moosedog is online now
SWCA Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 6,292
Likes: 6,365
Liked 8,792 Times in 2,260 Posts
Default

The guy should have never carried a gun that he is unwilling to use.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:16 PM
Hapworth Hapworth is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,556
Likes: 3,540
Liked 5,392 Times in 2,354 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
I understand the concept of staying inside and waiting on police. But is there a law that says I have to stay in my house cowering? I have every right to go out in my yard anytime of the day with my weapon in hand. Going outside on my own property any time I wish is within my rights.

As for the neighbors yard, I can easily stand in my driveway and speak to someone rifling through my neighbors vehicle, I wouldn't have to leave my property to do so...

Rosewood
Seems unfortunate that you equate what for many informed folk is discretion, proper priorities and good tactics with "cowering" -- which it isn't, but you do you.

Anyway, no, there's isn't a law that says you have to stay in your home.

There are laws local to you that say when you can and cannot use deadly force; there's also general common sense that says when you should. Suggest studying up on both.

At minimum, anyone considering "engaging" -- in any situation, really -- at least ought to ask themselves this: "Is this something worth killing, dying, or going to prison over." It's a simple metric with worlds of implication...
__________________
Pickpocket
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:28 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

So, everyone on here hears a noise in their yard at night, they are going to peek out the window and call the cops to come and investigate that it was a raccoon that knocked over the trash can. I don't buy it. I bet the majority of folks on here would go out and investigate just like every read blooded male would.

I have every right to go out side my house and see what is going on armed or not whether you think it is a good idea or not.

With your gun on you hip, you are not "using deadly force" until you point at someone. If I am standing in my yard and a perp moves toward me after I warned him to stop, I have every right to draw my weapon shoot him because I was in fear of my life. You didn't instigate it, you are on your property, he did, he is trespassing.

I am not saying staying in my home and waiting on cops is a bad idea, I am saying I shouldn't have to and do not think I am required to do so in my state.

Rosewood

Last edited by rosewood; 07-16-2020 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:28 PM
Collects's Avatar
Collects Collects is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,596
Likes: 10,603
Liked 3,196 Times in 1,320 Posts
Default

You should never fire a warning shot.

The law looks at everything from both sides. Look at your warning shot from the other guy's viewpoint.

You fired a shot. Now, the other guy is in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. You are perceived as shooting at the other guy. Now, the other guy may legally apply deadly force to you - he may shoot you to stop your apparent attack.

If you fire a warning shot, you are admitting that you were not in such fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. You did not use your gun in self defense. You used it to make noise.

What happens to your bullet with a warning shot? Shoot up, and it might fall on somebody's head. Shoot to the side, you might hit somebody. Shoot down, a ricochet might hit somebody.

Finally, when you are under attack, do you really want to deplete your limited ammunition supply making noise, instead of defending yourself?

NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS!
__________________
A lawyer, but NOT YOUR LAWYER.
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:29 PM
Borderboss Borderboss is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 609
Likes: 357
Liked 977 Times in 347 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth View Post
Seems unfortunate that you equate what for many informed folk is discretion, proper priorities and good tactics with "cowering" -- which it isn't, but you do you.

Anyway, no, there's isn't a law that says you have to stay in your home.

There are laws local to you that say when you can and cannot use deadly force; there's also general common sense that says when you should. Suggest studying up on both.

At minimum, anyone considering "engaging" -- in any situation, really -- at least ought to ask themselves this: "Is this something worth killing, dying, or going to prison over." It's a simple metric with worlds of implication...
Hapworth, your comments are perfect.

As you noted, in some places, the prevention of property theft is not considered a reason to use deadly force. If you're talking about protecting your property from a mob like the folks in St. Louis, that's a completely different story.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:30 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

So, what if the perp had already choked your neighbor to death and was working on his wife? Would you wait to see what is really going on? Let the cops deal with it?

Rosewood
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:36 PM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 8,755
Liked 8,369 Times in 2,882 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
So, what if the perp had already choked your neighbor to death and was working on his wife? Would you wait to see what is really going on? Let the cops deal with it?

Rosewood
There's a BIG difference between investigating an unknown noise, seeing someone breaking into a car, and seeing someone committing murder.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:38 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

"you should never fire a warning shot". Maybe so for a person, but I can see if you are in the wilderness and a grizzly is about to charge you, you are going to throw your gun down, wave your arms, clap etc and yell to scare him? I think not, I am going to fire a warning shot near the ground to get his attention if that doesn't work then I will dispatch him. I am going to keep that weapon ready in case the noise doesn't scare him. I could care less about a "ricochet" if in the woods.

Rosewood

Last edited by rosewood; 07-17-2020 at 06:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-16-2020, 02:39 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
There's a BIG difference between investigating an unknown noise, seeing someone breaking into a car, and seeing someone committing murder.
No kidding. My point is you don't know to what extent things have happened.

What is the phrase, "bad things happen because good people sit by and do nothing?"

Rosewood
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-16-2020, 03:06 PM
WCCPHD's Avatar
WCCPHD WCCPHD is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 1,760
Likes: 1,945
Liked 7,401 Times in 1,183 Posts
Default

I worked for an NC State law enforcement agency for over 30 years. Warning shots were strictly forbidden.
__________________
Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 07-16-2020, 03:10 PM
Borderboss Borderboss is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 609
Likes: 357
Liked 977 Times in 347 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
No kidding. My point is you don't know to what extent things have happened.

What is the phrase, "bad things happen because good people sit by and do nothing?"

Rosewood
Bad things also happen to good people because they assume the worse and overreact. You can only go with the information at hand.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #24  
Old 07-16-2020, 03:28 PM
gerhard1 gerhard1 is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 225
Likes: 105
Liked 383 Times in 110 Posts
Default

In spite of it being Biden's advice, the warning shot is generally, like so many of you have said here, a bad idea.
__________________
Let's be careful out there
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 07-16-2020, 06:09 PM
SMSgt SMSgt is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 1,198
Liked 2,864 Times in 1,270 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Here's the homeowner's main problem in this scenario: "The victim armed himself, went outside, saw the (suspect) standing near his neighbor's car...."
The bigger problem is that he missed with his warning shot.

Warning shots are legal in Florida. I will not say they are advisable though.

Last edited by SMSgt; 07-16-2020 at 06:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:08 PM
johngalt johngalt is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 358
Liked 3,681 Times in 1,519 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collects View Post
You should never fire a warning shot.

The law looks at everything from both sides. Look at your warning shot from the other guy's viewpoint.

You fired a shot. Now, the other guy is in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. You are perceived as shooting at the other guy. Now, the other guy may legally apply deadly force to you - he may shoot you to stop your apparent attack.

If you fire a warning shot, you are admitting that you were not in such fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. You did not use your gun in self defense. You used it to make noise.

What happens to your bullet with a warning shot? Shoot up, and it might fall on somebody's head. Shoot to the side, you might hit somebody. Shoot down, a ricochet might hit somebody.

Finally, when you are under attack, do you really want to deplete your limited ammunition supply making noise, instead of defending yourself?

NEVER FIRE WARNING SHOTS!
Can a person who was in the process of committing a crime successfully establish that he was not an aggressor or instigator of the situation? Seems like he would be on shaky grounds too.
__________________
Common sense isn't so common.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 07-16-2020, 10:29 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Besides the issue of playng armed security, there is a severe mind set deficite here. If you deploy a gun, be prepated to use it. Otherwise leave it in he holster. Training, mind set, skill level, otherwise leave it to those that have it. Call the cops.
Btw, warning shots in most states would be illegal not to mention reckless.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-16-2020 at 10:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 07-16-2020, 10:33 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
So, what if the perp had already choked your neighbor to death and was working on his wife? Would you wait to see what is really going on? Let the cops deal with it?

Rosewood
Just how would you know that?
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-16-2020, 10:37 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
"you should never fire a warning shot". Maybe so for a person, but I can see if you are in the wilderness and a grizzly is charging you, you are going to throw your gun down, wave your arms, clap etc and yell to scare him? I think not, I am going to fire a warning shot near the ground to get his attention if that doesn't work then I will dispatch him. I am going to keep that weapon ready in case the noise doesn't scare him. I could care less about a "ricochet" if in the woods.

Rosewood
A warning shot at a charging bear is wasting ammo you may need. Bears know what people are. If a bear comes, a warning shot wont impress it, he already knows what it is up against, why it chose a charge instead of run away.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #30  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:00 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is online now
US Veteran
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 9,581
Likes: 11,759
Liked 15,337 Times in 4,654 Posts
Default

If you’re thinking that you would confront a car prowler, think about this for a minute.

Your car is insured. If it isn’t, it can be replaced. You however cannot be replaced.

How much would it cost to replace your car versus possibly having to defend yourself in court?

In Washington State it is illegal to use a gun to protect your car. Don’t let anger dictate your reaction. Stay inside and call the police. Several car owners have gone to jail for murder and assault with a deadly weapon in this state over the last 10 years or so because they confronted a car prowler.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:03 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is online now
US Veteran
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 9,581
Likes: 11,759
Liked 15,337 Times in 4,654 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
A warning shot at a charging bear is wasting ammo you may need. Bears know what people are. If a bear comes, a warning shot wont impress it, he already knows what it is up against, why it chose a charge instead of run away.
Warning shots work very well for bear. Fish and wildlife biologists use them quite often. That’s why their called “cracker shells”.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #32  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:37 PM
ISCS Yoda's Avatar
ISCS Yoda ISCS Yoda is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 6,083
Likes: 1,492
Liked 8,023 Times in 2,993 Posts
Default

There might be a time or a place for a warning shot (omitting animals; that's just such a different subject). Maybe. I am not sure what that time or place is. Where are you going to aim that shot? If you're standing in the middle of a yard with grass or dirt, okay, you could fire into the ground. Otherwise, where do you point it? Certainly not up. Certainly not at cement. Certainly not at your car. I do think that I could argue that if I'm at my front door and am confronted by someone in the street in front of my house I could successfully fire a round into the grass. But, as a normal, self defense thing, it's a total waste of time.

The guy has a knife. He's 20 or 25 feet away. Even 30 feet. You all know the drill, that a knife wielding bad guy can close that gap faster than you can get that second shot off. If you're going to play cop outside then you've decided to use deadly force. Use it, or stay inside, or go back inside. This is real world, not Hollyweird. Your gun is sufficient warning that you're prepared to use deadly force. If you're not thus prepared dial 911 and stay inside.

All the rest is commentary.
__________________
Come and take it!!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 07-16-2020, 11:57 PM
Forte Smitten Wesson's Avatar
Forte Smitten Wesson Forte Smitten Wesson is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 2,092
Liked 3,004 Times in 1,085 Posts
Default

I've never been able to grasp the concept of a warning shot. The way I see it is, if someone isn't already retreating by the time you've drawn your weapon, then they aren't going to retreat if you fire a warning shot either, so all a warning shot does is provide them with an opening as well as an incentive to attack you.

I don't want to have to shoot someone any more than the next peaceful, law-abiding citizen, but I didn't decide to carry a gun in hopes that it could repel an attack without having to shoot someone.

Folks who aren't prepared to actually shoot someone if it comes right down to it really would be better served carrying a Stun Gun or Pepper Spray because they will have far better chances of repelling an attack without bloodshed using one of those than they will with "warning shots" not to mention far less risk of collateral damage.
__________________
RIP .40 S&W (1990 - Present)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:42 AM
lrrifleman's Avatar
lrrifleman lrrifleman is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 3,870
Likes: 11,072
Liked 3,060 Times in 1,409 Posts
Default

This is an interesting dialog; however, I am not seeing two very important elements being addressed: the duty to retreat and the doctrine of equal force.

Does the jurisdiction where you are contemplating using a warning shot require the potential victim retreat before using lethal force? If it does, and you (claiming fear for your life) are engaging the "perceived" threat, you have obliterated your legal defense!

Does the jurisdiction where you are contemplating using a warning shot utilize a doctrine of equal force? In some jurisdictions, you may engage a perceived threat only with a level of force that is less than or equal to the level of force that is employed against you! In many respects, you must perceive your life to be in immanent and immediate danger in order to justify lethal force in order to neutralize a threat against yourself or another.

There is much more that needs to be taken into consideration when contemplating the use of deadly force in order to protect yourself or another than just being armed!
__________________
Judge control not gun control!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:11 AM
biku324's Avatar
biku324 biku324 is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Permanently NM; now Bosni
Posts: 1,076
Likes: 2,113
Liked 2,145 Times in 698 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
No kidding. My point is you don't know to what extent things have happened.

What is the phrase, "bad things happen because good people sit by and do nothing?"

Rosewood
In your legal defense you are limited to what you knew at the time, the instant, you used force. Coulda, mighta, maybe are inadmissible, and nothing you discovered after the fact is relevant to defending your decision.

Last edited by biku324; 07-17-2020 at 01:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #36  
Old 07-17-2020, 03:31 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 14,564
Likes: 2,816
Liked 16,420 Times in 6,159 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
So, everyone on here hears a noise in their yard at night, they are going to peek out the window and call the cops to come and investigate that it was a raccoon that knocked over the trash can. I don't buy it. I bet the majority of folks on here would go out and investigate just like every read blooded male would.
No, I wouldn't call the police for every sound. However, I can tell the difference between an animal scrabbling around and a person attempting to do damage or break into my house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
"you should never fire a warning shot". Maybe so for a person, but I can see if you are in the wilderness and a grizzly is charging you, you are going to throw your gun down, wave your arms, clap etc and yell to scare him? I think not, I am going to fire a warning shot near the ground to get his attention if that doesn't work then I will dispatch him. I am going to keep that weapon ready in case the noise doesn't scare him. I could care less about a "ricochet" if in the woods.

Rosewood
If a grizzly is charging you, you're going to fire a warning shot? Well, OK, if you say so. We'll notify your next of kin.

If a grizzly is charging me and I have a gun, I'm shooting. This is the very definition of a life threatening situation.
__________________
Freedom isn't free.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 07-17-2020, 06:35 AM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
No, I wouldn't call the police for every sound. However, I can tell the difference between an animal scrabbling around and a person attempting to do damage or break into my house.

If a grizzly is charging you, you're going to fire a warning shot? Well, OK, if you say so. We'll notify your next of kin.

If a grizzly is charging me and I have a gun, I'm shooting. This is the very definition of a life threatening situation.
Let's correct the wording. A grizzly is about to charge you.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:02 AM
raljr1 raljr1 is online now
SWCA Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Southwestern PA
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 4,508
Liked 9,082 Times in 2,021 Posts
Default

I am far from an expert in this area, but I always thought that the only time for a civilian to pull a gun is when they intend to pull the trigger. In this instance, outside my home, I would tell the perp to leave and do so quickly. If he advanced on me with a knife in his hand, and I pulled a gun, the only shot would be in his chest. I am not sure I would try to hold someone at gun point outside my home. (Inside my home would be a different story). If, as someone proposed, he had, unknown to me, committed a murder in one of the homes prior to breaking into my car, and he left at my command, I would consider finding and detaining him to be the job of the police.
__________________
Robert
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #39  
Old 07-17-2020, 08:10 AM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 8,755
Liked 8,369 Times in 2,882 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
Does the jurisdiction where you are contemplating using a warning shot utilize a doctrine of equal force? In some jurisdictions, you may engage a perceived threat only with a level of force that is less than or equal to the level of force that is employed against you! In many respects, you must perceive your life to be in immanent and immediate danger in order to justify lethal force in order to neutralize a threat against yourself or another.
Actually, this was addressed by posters who said that firing a warning shot could lead to legal trouble as it meant that the person firing the warning shot was not actually in fear for his life, thus deadly force was not justified.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-17-2020, 10:17 AM
tops's Avatar
tops tops is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NC, Yadkin County
Posts: 4,587
Likes: 11,762
Liked 5,293 Times in 2,043 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
Let's correct the wording. A grizzly is about to charge you.
I have never saw a Grizzly and doubt if I ever will but for me "about too charge" and "charge" is a fraction of a second difference and I can't see wasting time and bullets on warning shots. Larry
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 07-17-2020, 11:56 AM
JS Esq. JS Esq. is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 90
Likes: 60
Liked 149 Times in 51 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Warning shots work very well for bear. Fish and wildlife biologists use them quite often. That’s why their called “cracker shells”.
In just skimming the thread I initially read this as, "Warning shots work very well for fish". Thanks for the laugh!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:00 PM
oldbrownhat's Avatar
oldbrownhat oldbrownhat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pacific North-Wet
Posts: 727
Likes: 311
Liked 1,433 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JS Esq. View Post
In just skimming the thread I initially read this as, "Warning shots work very well for fish". Thanks for the laugh!
I'm relieved that I'm not the only one whose eyes sometimes get ahead of my brain
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #43  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:21 PM
rubiranch's Avatar
rubiranch rubiranch is offline
SWCA Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Utah
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 11,916
Liked 15,360 Times in 3,542 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
Warning shots are in almost all cases stupid and dangerous and are often illegal. They are, by definition, a discharge of a weapon when you are NOT in immediate peril. They have the potential of huge civil and criminal liability. DON'T DO IT.
And if he wasn't "prepared" to defend himself why did he grab his gun in the first place??
__________________
Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #44  
Old 07-17-2020, 02:19 PM
rosewood rosewood is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 572
Likes: 510
Liked 342 Times in 197 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch View Post
And if he wasn't "prepared" to defend himself why did he grab his gun in the first place??
Unfortunately, much of what we "know" about firearms and laws is based on falsehoods that come from Hollywood. Folks on TV fire warning shots all the time. They usually don't cock their weapon until the person they are pointing at doesn't follow instructions. Joe Biden said you could fire a warning shot and also shoot folks through the front door with your shotgun. Neither are generally good ideas.

I am not a proponent of requiring training for carrying, but I do think it is a good idea.

Rosewood
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #45  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:47 PM
Fastbolt's Avatar
Fastbolt Fastbolt is offline
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CA Central Coast
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 783
Liked 5,652 Times in 1,918 Posts
Default

Warning shots. Sigh.

I've seen the approved use of "warning shots" by LE come, go and come back again. Dunno how many times that cycle will be repeated. I remember a few times having spoken with an attorney who specializes in consulting to LE agencies about this subject, among many others, that reflect the evolution of policies and procedures used by LE agencies to keep pace with evolving law coming out of court cases.

I know one major agency who brought back the ability to use warning shots, but the caveat was that a "warning shot" could only be used if the officer found him/herself in a situation where the use of deadly force was already reasonable and justifiable, but the officer thought he/she could take someone into custody via the use of a warning shot instead of shooting the suspect ... wait for it ...

AND, the warning shot could only be fired if it was able to be specifically directed into a backstop material that would contain it, and not allow it to be deflected off of, or penetrate through, the material and endanger anyone else. Choose wisely, or you're at least at risk of being found out-of-policy (which is never a good thing), and that certainly won't be helpful if you face either/or criminal and civil problems due to the warning shot hitting something that ought not have a hole in it.

That's kind of a hint, huh?
__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Last edited by Fastbolt; 07-17-2020 at 04:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #46  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:21 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Warning shots work very well for bear. Fish and wildlife biologists use them quite often. That’s why their called “cracker shells”.
Thats to scare bears off an area. They dont use them against a charging bear.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-18-2020 at 09:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:26 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is online now
US Veteran
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 9,581
Likes: 11,759
Liked 15,337 Times in 4,654 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Thats to scare bears off an atea. They dont use them against a charging bear.
If I can find the video, I’ll show you.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #48  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:26 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
There might be a time or a place for a warning shot (omitting animals; that's just such a different subject). Maybe. I am not sure what that time or place is. Where are you going to aim that shot? If you're standing in the middle of a yard with grass or dirt, okay, you could fire into the ground. Otherwise, where do you point it? Certainly not up. Certainly not at cement. Certainly not at your car. I do think that I could argue that if I'm at my front door and am confronted by someone in the street in front of my house I could successfully fire a round into the grass. But, as a normal, self defense thing, it's a total waste of time.

The guy has a knife. He's 20 or 25 feet away. Even 30 feet. You all know the drill, that a knife wielding bad guy can close that gap faster than you can get that second shot off. If you're going to play cop outside then you've decided to use deadly force. Use it, or stay inside, or go back inside. This is real world, not Hollyweird. Your gun is sufficient warning that you're prepared to use deadly force. If you're not thus prepared dial 911 and stay inside.

All the rest is commentary.
Well sort of. The Tueller drill is based on the victim not being ready & gun holstered. Paying attention to the threat, hand on gun, you just cut your first shot time in half. Gun out at low ready, half again. Gun up & pointed in, if you are any good, you get 4rds com before he covers 20ft of his 21ft. Train, practice, repeat.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-17-2020 at 10:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-17-2020, 08:55 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is online now
Member
The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot The risk of the warning shot  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 28,293
Likes: 36,061
Liked 25,784 Times in 12,316 Posts
Default I also saw..

.. where a motorist got into an altercation with a driver and all of the other guys buddies ganged up on him and beat him pretty bad. His wife handed him the gun from the car and he angrily fired a warning shot into the ground, though he was not being approached at this time.

He was fined for firing a 'warning shot' into the ground.

It was foolish because he let his anger get the better of him (understandable) but the fight was over. He should have warned them back, got in his car and left.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #50  
Old 07-17-2020, 11:07 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 2,366
Liked 3,629 Times in 2,207 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
If I can find the video, I’ll show you.
For sure warning shots on idiots is not useful.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-18-2020 at 09:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
38 vs 357 - risk factors t0073 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 101 02-12-2016 01:05 AM
Risk Assessment Smoke Concealed Carry & Self Defense 57 08-25-2015 04:02 PM
Running the risk of......... JonF The Lounge 14 12-09-2013 11:58 PM
You can't even risk going to sleep around here SPEEDGUNNER Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 3 12-23-2012 12:38 PM
I CAN’T RISK IT! brucev The Lounge 0 05-19-2012 08:45 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:41 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)