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07-16-2020, 12:23 PM
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Michigan OIS
Michigan deputy engaged knife wielding suspect. I suppose we could get down in the weeds and speculate about how many times she did or did not score good hits, or ponder about the virtues of one caliber or another. But the real takeaways here are that she shot till the threat was stopped and she cleared a malfunction and stayed in the fight like a BOSS!
Bodycam Shows Armed Suspect Running at Michigan Deputy Before Being Shot - YouTube
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07-16-2020, 12:54 PM
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Good for her!
I am glad that the video is clear and she is clearly in the right.
I'm sure that some will still claim that she could have done something else.....
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07-16-2020, 12:56 PM
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I have a contact up that way who shares some info. The T-u-r-d was already suspected of an assault with sharp objects. The deputy already kind of knew what she was getting herself into. The malfunction was caused by the suspect grabbing or striking the firearm. They think she only missed once.
Last edited by Loyaljeeper; 07-16-2020 at 12:57 PM.
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07-16-2020, 12:57 PM
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I have been advised by other LEOs on another forum that she made a total of eight hits. Where the hits were, I have no information on.
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07-16-2020, 02:20 PM
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Good job officer!
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07-16-2020, 02:29 PM
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Thankfully she had the wits to start shooting when she did
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Good job!
I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
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07-16-2020, 10:12 PM
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It was quite a reality check to see from her point of view just how fast someone wielding a bladed weapon can close distance. I always heard the 21 foot rule of thumb but was never fully convinced until now...
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07-17-2020, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
Good job!
I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
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Maybe they don't realize tasers don't work on everyone all of the time and could be too that they dont use the brain that God gave them to realize that knife is every bit as deadly as a gun.
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07-17-2020, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
Good job!
I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
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This is an area I think current political leadership is letting us down. With all the unrest going on, how about clear, unambiguous statements from state Attorney Generals, local county attorneys, sheriffs, mayors, etc. - “If you attack someone with a deadly weapon, it’s OK for them to defend themselves with deadly force and we will support them.”
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07-17-2020, 09:00 AM
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Boys & Girls,
It happens just that fast in the real world.
The Deputy did the right thing, and saved her own life.
I am glad she went home to her family safe.
Prayers for all our first responders.
.
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07-17-2020, 09:21 AM
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Glad the Deputy was ok. I hope the perp didn't make it.
Yes, the real world.
That is why I have always been against civilian review boards for police. They just do not have a clue what it's like.
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07-17-2020, 06:41 PM
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If that was a known (or reasonably suspected) violent offender, the initial stop was too close. He was also allowed to get way too close before firing. His body language clearly showed that he intended to assault the cop, and the fist shot likely should have been fired when he passed the trunk. Even his getting out of the car was a pre-assaultive cue.
Once engaged, she did a good job, but as you can see, he was willing and able to continue the attack even after several rounds were fired. (And if any missed, that shows the complete lack of value of a warning shot. He did not care.) This is the real world of violent encounters - fast and close; decisiveness is critical. Portions of seconds matter. Violent offenders do not.
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07-17-2020, 06:46 PM
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Just goes to show a thing about handguns and “stopping power”
Don’t count on it
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07-17-2020, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAFireman
Good for her!
I am glad that the video is clear and she is clearly in the right.
I'm sure that some will still claim that she could have done something else.....
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Well joe does shoot the unarmed guy with a knife in the leg????????!
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Last edited by fredj338; 07-20-2020 at 07:28 PM.
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07-17-2020, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie
Just goes to show a thing about handguns and “stopping power”
Don’t count on it
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Except we cant tell where her shots landed. One to the face ends it. After her malf, all head shots would have been a better bet but she handled it well.
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Last edited by fredj338; 07-19-2020 at 07:49 PM.
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07-17-2020, 10:48 PM
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She let the perp get way too close. The perp had a plan when he exited the vehicle with the knife. She had good training to continue firing while creating space by backing up.
She gets to go home tonight. He doesn't. Well done.
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07-17-2020, 11:09 PM
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Good work
Good work by the officer except she should have started sooner. 20 foot rule was in play. Lucky she didn't get cut. Excellent malfunction recovery. Overall result was as it should be when officer's life is at stake.
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07-18-2020, 12:12 AM
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I LOVE COPS!!!!!!
And I hate ***'s that put their lives in harms way.
Glad he's dead.
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Last edited by rubiranch; 07-18-2020 at 09:43 PM.
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07-18-2020, 06:17 PM
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I think she did extremely well and was very controlled in doing it under those circumstances.
It actually looked like he might have had a second knife in the other hand too.
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07-19-2020, 01:37 PM
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She did well. I counted 13 shots, including the one when he deflected the gun toward the ground. Blurb on YTube said he died during surgery.
He had stabbed someone in a dispute over wearing a mask. So, in all seriousness, will this be counted as a Covid 19 related death?
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07-19-2020, 03:39 PM
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What? She didn't have time to call a social worker to talk nice to the perp?
Good work officer...
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07-19-2020, 05:46 PM
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Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.
This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
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07-19-2020, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525
This is an area I think current political leadership is letting us down. With all the unrest going on, how about clear, unambiguous statements from state Attorney Generals, local county attorneys, sheriffs, mayors, etc. - “If you attack someone with a deadly weapon, it’s OK for them to defend themselves with deadly force and we will support them.”
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Tune in to the sheriff down in Polk County, Florida. He likes to say, “We will shoot you - a lot!” Or something like that. Most gutless politicians elsewhere, not so much.
I saw the bodycam footage. I was scared to death for her. It’s a miracle she wasn’t injured. What a nightmare! I hope she’s adjusting OK.
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07-19-2020, 06:10 PM
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Great handgun handling!
Not many LEOs, let alone civilians, would be able to accomplish that.
Last edited by Rpg; 07-19-2020 at 06:13 PM.
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07-19-2020, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman
Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.
This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
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I haven't seen much second guessing of the deputy going on here in the this thread. I think most of us here agree with you. The deputy performed admirably in a situation that none of us would want to be in.
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07-19-2020, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiegtrider
I haven't seen much second guessing of the deputy going on here in the this thread. I think most of us here agree with you. The deputy performed admirably in a situation that none of us would want to be in.
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Okie, what prompted my comment was more the comments that she allowed the armed suspect get too close before using her weapon. Honestly, I am of the belief that everyone here endorses her ultimate actions!
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07-19-2020, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman
Okie, what prompted my comment was more the comments that she allowed the armed suspect get too close before using her weapon. Honestly, I am of the belief that everyone here endorses her ultimate actions!
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There's a difference between "Monday morning quarterbacking" and trying to learn from incidents.
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07-19-2020, 07:26 PM
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It seemed to me that the above comments about being too close to the BG were more observations than criticisms. No battle plan survives frist contact with the enemy, etc. Consensus is that she did a superb job.
Last edited by Murdock; 07-19-2020 at 07:28 PM.
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07-19-2020, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman
Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.
This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
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Leo or ccw, we all have to draw thst red line. Most of us never want to shoot someone, so I get her allowing him more tme to surrender but she did need to do diff things in her fight & hopefully someone trains her up. She did fine, survived the fight, but yes, monday morning qb is how we all learn.
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Last edited by fredj338; 07-20-2020 at 07:29 PM.
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07-19-2020, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg
Great handgun handling!
Not many LEOs, let alone civilians, would be able to accomplish that.
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Well a lot more ccw than you might think.
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07-19-2020, 08:48 PM
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They ought to make her the new Range Master,..........
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07-19-2020, 09:23 PM
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I for one thought she handled in well. I have already commented this but word is she only missed once.
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07-19-2020, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338
Leo or ccw, we all have to draw thst red line. Most of us neber want to shoot someone, so I get hef allowing him more tme to surrender but she did need to do diff things in her fight & hopefully someone trains her up. She did fine, survived the fight, but yes, monday morning qb is how wecall learn.
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I would appreciate being trained by her. She saw the elephant and walked away from it so she did something right.
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07-20-2020, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
Good job!
I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
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Obviously the FB zitbrains have never had someone come after them w/ a knife (don't ask). She did very well, obviously didn't want to shoot him but did the job perfectly when she had to.
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07-20-2020, 12:01 AM
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She did good!! The department may need to rethink the defensive ammo they issue.
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07-20-2020, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc2427765
She did good!! The department may need to rethink the defensive ammo they issue.
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No just training & tactics. She never moves diagonally off the X, she doesnt use the car for cover, she never shoots for the head. She did fine but more trigger time, better training & ptactice.
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07-20-2020, 07:47 PM
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I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
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07-21-2020, 09:30 AM
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It's pretty easy to second guess when you're not the one in the excrement show. Adrenaline pumping, heart rate in triple digits, trying to control your bladder & bowels, (my first night in Lai Khe comes to mind). Another step and Mr. Bad Guy's on top of the deputy. To stop the threat, and clear a malfunction in the midst of a stress situation? First rate.
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07-21-2020, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duane_wade
they dont use the brain that God gave them to realize that knife is every bit as deadly as a gun.
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Certainly not using this opportunity to be too ironic or hilarious, but you should use what god gave you to check out the stats from the CDC . According to the concrete stats they have collected for decades, guns are far more lethal than knives. It's not even really close. Here, I'll even take the leg work out of it for you and leave these links right here for you and anyone else interested.
WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports
(Fatal injury report)
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
(Non-fatal injury report)
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07-21-2020, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shell627
I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
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I think that their policy is going to cause some problems down the road. The failure to stop drill helps account for the body armor that we are seeing on 'peaceful protestors' and active shooters. It also deals with individuals who have an altered mental status and may not even know that they were shot.
No agency that I have ever worked with trained their officers 'shoot to kill', rather they train to stop the threat. Sometimes death is a by-product of those actions, but if the officer (or civilian) life is in danger, then they need to stop the threat NOW, and endlessly dumping rounds into center mass with no effect is a waste of ammo.
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The Elephant in the Room
I'm surprised nobody has addressed something that is so central to a large swathe of this forum: Had she been carrying a revolver, she may have gotten slashed. She had to take 9 shots, with 8 connecting. My assumption is that she was carrying a 9x19 mm handgun with police loads. A revolver with say, 38 +P may not have gotten the job done with this assailant. Perhaps .44 would have made bigger wound channels. The upside: there probably would not have been a malfunction to clear. The downside: most of use cannot reload a revolver as fast as Massad Ayoob.
Just some food for the discussion. Placement counts. It may be the most important thing, but in the heat of the moment, absent placement - pulling the trigger until the threat was stopped is what was required in this shooting.
Last edited by peter-paul; 07-21-2020 at 11:16 AM.
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07-21-2020, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shell627
I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
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Whoever made that analysis and policy decision needs to be fired, forthwith. They are wrong on the law, the tactics, and the ballistics. The life or death of the offender is not relevant. Your ability to stop them and go home is.
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08-01-2020, 09:09 AM
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My first question is, what in the name of all holy hannas was thes thought about getting out of his vehicle before instructed to do so in the the first place. In all my 77 years I have until this video never seen someomne who was pulled over exit their vehicle prior to being instructed to do so by the officer. She did what was the right thing to do. Hope she comes out of this O K.
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08-01-2020, 09:55 AM
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Well if they had dispatched the patrol Social Worker he/she would have brought an extra latte for the suspect and they would have sat down on that nice green lawn and discussed his problems and issues at length.
Then when they finished their lattes he would have cut the Patrol Social Workers throat from ear to ear and proceeded merrily on his homicidal way.
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08-01-2020, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338
No just training & tactics. She never moves diagonally off the X, she doesnt use the car for cover, she never shoots for the head. She did fine but more trigger time, better training & ptactice.
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The difference between her and you being of course that she's been in a fight
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08-01-2020, 12:50 PM
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I can't seem to post videos to here but John Correia did a very good frame-by-frame analysis of the shooting. He thinks that the malfunction was caused by a poor grip on her part. He also shows that she did not clear the malfunction on her gun. When he slowed the video down you can actually see her attacker take a swing and he slaps the gun and jars the slide stop loose. About a second later she does a Tap Rack Bang and you can clearly see that the gun is already in battery before she starts.
Michigan Deputy Defends Against Encroaching Attacker - YouTube
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Last edited by Smoke; 08-01-2020 at 12:55 PM.
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08-01-2020, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke
The difference between her and you being of course that she's been in a fight
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Yes probably her first. Everyone has a first. I know plenty of LEO still not having their first. Doesn't mean you shouldnt prepare & be able to execute. We all train, ccw & leo, for that first fight, or at least we should. I'm glad she did as well as she did. Though I wouldnt pat myself on the back & say gtg, I survived my fight, back to normal. Plenty of room for delf evaluation & improvement. Careful your badge arrogance is showing.
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Last edited by fredj338; 08-01-2020 at 12:58 PM.
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08-01-2020, 01:01 PM
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This took me back to the early ‘80s when I had to put a knife wilding hostage taker down w/three rounds from my issued Model 15.
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08-01-2020, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop
This took me back to the early ‘80s when I had to put a knife wilding hostage taker down w/three rounds from my issued Model 15.
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Yep every attacker is diff. Your first hand exp would lead you to feel 5-6rds is plenty. I will bet most LEO involved in fights that went beyond their initial load out would want more ammo.
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Last edited by fredj338; 08-01-2020 at 08:47 PM.
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