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Old 07-16-2020, 12:23 PM
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Michigan deputy engaged knife wielding suspect. I suppose we could get down in the weeds and speculate about how many times she did or did not score good hits, or ponder about the virtues of one caliber or another. But the real takeaways here are that she shot till the threat was stopped and she cleared a malfunction and stayed in the fight like a BOSS!

Bodycam Shows Armed Suspect Running at Michigan Deputy Before Being Shot - YouTube
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:54 PM
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Good for her!

I am glad that the video is clear and she is clearly in the right.

I'm sure that some will still claim that she could have done something else.....
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:56 PM
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I have a contact up that way who shares some info. The T-u-r-d was already suspected of an assault with sharp objects. The deputy already kind of knew what she was getting herself into. The malfunction was caused by the suspect grabbing or striking the firearm. They think she only missed once.

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Old 07-16-2020, 12:57 PM
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I have been advised by other LEOs on another forum that she made a total of eight hits. Where the hits were, I have no information on.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:20 PM
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Good job officer!
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:29 PM
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Thankfully she had the wits to start shooting when she did

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Old 07-16-2020, 09:21 PM
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Good job!

I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:12 PM
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It was quite a reality check to see from her point of view just how fast someone wielding a bladed weapon can close distance. I always heard the 21 foot rule of thumb but was never fully convinced until now...
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:22 AM
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Good job!



I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
Maybe they don't realize tasers don't work on everyone all of the time and could be too that they dont use the brain that God gave them to realize that knife is every bit as deadly as a gun.


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Old 07-17-2020, 08:36 AM
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Good job!

I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!
This is an area I think current political leadership is letting us down. With all the unrest going on, how about clear, unambiguous statements from state Attorney Generals, local county attorneys, sheriffs, mayors, etc. - “If you attack someone with a deadly weapon, it’s OK for them to defend themselves with deadly force and we will support them.”
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:00 AM
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Boys & Girls,
It happens just that fast in the real world.
The Deputy did the right thing, and saved her own life.

I am glad she went home to her family safe.

Prayers for all our first responders.
.
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:21 AM
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Glad the Deputy was ok. I hope the perp didn't make it.

Yes, the real world.
That is why I have always been against civilian review boards for police. They just do not have a clue what it's like.
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Old 07-17-2020, 06:41 PM
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If that was a known (or reasonably suspected) violent offender, the initial stop was too close. He was also allowed to get way too close before firing. His body language clearly showed that he intended to assault the cop, and the fist shot likely should have been fired when he passed the trunk. Even his getting out of the car was a pre-assaultive cue.

Once engaged, she did a good job, but as you can see, he was willing and able to continue the attack even after several rounds were fired. (And if any missed, that shows the complete lack of value of a warning shot. He did not care.) This is the real world of violent encounters - fast and close; decisiveness is critical. Portions of seconds matter. Violent offenders do not.
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Old 07-17-2020, 06:46 PM
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Just goes to show a thing about handguns and “stopping power”
Don’t count on it
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SAFireman View Post
Good for her!

I am glad that the video is clear and she is clearly in the right.

I'm sure that some will still claim that she could have done something else.....
Well joe does shoot the unarmed guy with a knife in the leg????????!
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:11 PM
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Just goes to show a thing about handguns and “stopping power”
Don’t count on it
Except we cant tell where her shots landed. One to the face ends it. After her malf, all head shots would have been a better bet but she handled it well.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:48 PM
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She let the perp get way too close. The perp had a plan when he exited the vehicle with the knife. She had good training to continue firing while creating space by backing up.
She gets to go home tonight. He doesn't. Well done.
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Old 07-17-2020, 11:09 PM
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Default Good work

Good work by the officer except she should have started sooner. 20 foot rule was in play. Lucky she didn't get cut. Excellent malfunction recovery. Overall result was as it should be when officer's life is at stake.
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:12 AM
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I LOVE COPS!!!!!!

And I hate ***'s that put their lives in harms way.

Glad he's dead.
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Old 07-18-2020, 06:17 PM
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I think she did extremely well and was very controlled in doing it under those circumstances.
It actually looked like he might have had a second knife in the other hand too.
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Old 07-19-2020, 01:37 PM
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She did well. I counted 13 shots, including the one when he deflected the gun toward the ground. Blurb on YTube said he died during surgery.

He had stabbed someone in a dispute over wearing a mask. So, in all seriousness, will this be counted as a Covid 19 related death?
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Old 07-19-2020, 03:39 PM
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What? She didn't have time to call a social worker to talk nice to the perp?

Good work officer...
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:46 PM
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Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.

This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
This is an area I think current political leadership is letting us down. With all the unrest going on, how about clear, unambiguous statements from state Attorney Generals, local county attorneys, sheriffs, mayors, etc. - “If you attack someone with a deadly weapon, it’s OK for them to defend themselves with deadly force and we will support them.”
Tune in to the sheriff down in Polk County, Florida. He likes to say, “We will shoot you - a lot!” Or something like that. Most gutless politicians elsewhere, not so much.

I saw the bodycam footage. I was scared to death for her. It’s a miracle she wasn’t injured. What a nightmare! I hope she’s adjusting OK.
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Old 07-19-2020, 06:10 PM
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Great handgun handling!

Not many LEOs, let alone civilians, would be able to accomplish that.

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Old 07-19-2020, 06:18 PM
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Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.

This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
I haven't seen much second guessing of the deputy going on here in the this thread. I think most of us here agree with you. The deputy performed admirably in a situation that none of us would want to be in.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:14 PM
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I haven't seen much second guessing of the deputy going on here in the this thread. I think most of us here agree with you. The deputy performed admirably in a situation that none of us would want to be in.
Okie, what prompted my comment was more the comments that she allowed the armed suspect get too close before using her weapon. Honestly, I am of the belief that everyone here endorses her ultimate actions!
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:20 PM
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Okie, what prompted my comment was more the comments that she allowed the armed suspect get too close before using her weapon. Honestly, I am of the belief that everyone here endorses her ultimate actions!
There's a difference between "Monday morning quarterbacking" and trying to learn from incidents.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:26 PM
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It seemed to me that the above comments about being too close to the BG were more observations than criticisms. No battle plan survives frist contact with the enemy, etc. Consensus is that she did a superb job.

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Old 07-19-2020, 07:53 PM
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Folks, I will probably anger many of you with what I am about to say. Not a single one of us has the right to "Monday morning quarterback" this deputy! We weren't there, and even more importantly, we don't know what was running through her mind with the current lack of support for the law enforcement community! With the current trend calling for defunding or disbanding police departments, she may have had the thought running through her mind that she might have been left "hanging" by the powers that be! Perhaps she felt that politically, the seven yard rule would subject her actions to uneducated scrutiny.

This deputy did what she had to do when the danger to her safety was imminent! She fulfilled job 1, she made it home that evening!
Leo or ccw, we all have to draw thst red line. Most of us never want to shoot someone, so I get her allowing him more tme to surrender but she did need to do diff things in her fight & hopefully someone trains her up. She did fine, survived the fight, but yes, monday morning qb is how we all learn.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:53 PM
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Great handgun handling!

Not many LEOs, let alone civilians, would be able to accomplish that.
Well a lot more ccw than you might think.
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:48 PM
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They ought to make her the new Range Master,..........
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Old 07-19-2020, 09:23 PM
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I for one thought she handled in well. I have already commented this but word is she only missed once.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:08 PM
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Leo or ccw, we all have to draw thst red line. Most of us neber want to shoot someone, so I get hef allowing him more tme to surrender but she did need to do diff things in her fight & hopefully someone trains her up. She did fine, survived the fight, but yes, monday morning qb is how wecall learn.
I would appreciate being trained by her. She saw the elephant and walked away from it so she did something right.
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Old 07-20-2020, 12:00 AM
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Good job!

I’ve seen the video on several FB posts where multiple commenters said she murdered the guy because he only had a knife and she could have used a Taser!


Obviously the FB zitbrains have never had someone come after them w/ a knife (don't ask). She did very well, obviously didn't want to shoot him but did the job perfectly when she had to.
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Old 07-20-2020, 12:01 AM
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She did good!! The department may need to rethink the defensive ammo they issue.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:31 PM
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She did good!! The department may need to rethink the defensive ammo they issue.
No just training & tactics. She never moves diagonally off the X, she doesnt use the car for cover, she never shoots for the head. She did fine but more trigger time, better training & ptactice.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:47 PM
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I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:30 AM
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It's pretty easy to second guess when you're not the one in the excrement show. Adrenaline pumping, heart rate in triple digits, trying to control your bladder & bowels, (my first night in Lai Khe comes to mind). Another step and Mr. Bad Guy's on top of the deputy. To stop the threat, and clear a malfunction in the midst of a stress situation? First rate.
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:09 AM
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they dont use the brain that God gave them to realize that knife is every bit as deadly as a gun.


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Certainly not using this opportunity to be too ironic or hilarious, but you should use what god gave you to check out the stats from the CDC . According to the concrete stats they have collected for decades, guns are far more lethal than knives. It's not even really close. Here, I'll even take the leg work out of it for you and leave these links right here for you and anyone else interested.

WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports
(Fatal injury report)

WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports
(Non-fatal injury report)
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:32 AM
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I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
I think that their policy is going to cause some problems down the road. The failure to stop drill helps account for the body armor that we are seeing on 'peaceful protestors' and active shooters. It also deals with individuals who have an altered mental status and may not even know that they were shot.

No agency that I have ever worked with trained their officers 'shoot to kill', rather they train to stop the threat. Sometimes death is a by-product of those actions, but if the officer (or civilian) life is in danger, then they need to stop the threat NOW, and endlessly dumping rounds into center mass with no effect is a waste of ammo.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:14 AM
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Default The Elephant in the Room

I'm surprised nobody has addressed something that is so central to a large swathe of this forum: Had she been carrying a revolver, she may have gotten slashed. She had to take 9 shots, with 8 connecting. My assumption is that she was carrying a 9x19 mm handgun with police loads. A revolver with say, 38 +P may not have gotten the job done with this assailant. Perhaps .44 would have made bigger wound channels. The upside: there probably would not have been a malfunction to clear. The downside: most of use cannot reload a revolver as fast as Massad Ayoob.

Just some food for the discussion. Placement counts. It may be the most important thing, but in the heat of the moment, absent placement - pulling the trigger until the threat was stopped is what was required in this shooting.

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Old 07-21-2020, 05:01 PM
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I don’t know about MI.But we no longer train for headshots.All shooting is center of mass.We used to train failure to stop. Two shots center of mass and one to head.They quit doing that training for two reason I was told.One was dumbing down to lowest denominator.And two shooting for the head means you are training to kill not just stop.I don’t agree with that. But nobody cares what I think.I would be proud to work with that officer anytime.
*
Whoever made that analysis and policy decision needs to be fired, forthwith. They are wrong on the law, the tactics, and the ballistics. The life or death of the offender is not relevant. Your ability to stop them and go home is.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:09 AM
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My first question is, what in the name of all holy hannas was thes thought about getting out of his vehicle before instructed to do so in the the first place. In all my 77 years I have until this video never seen someomne who was pulled over exit their vehicle prior to being instructed to do so by the officer. She did what was the right thing to do. Hope she comes out of this O K.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:55 AM
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Well if they had dispatched the patrol Social Worker he/she would have brought an extra latte for the suspect and they would have sat down on that nice green lawn and discussed his problems and issues at length.

Then when they finished their lattes he would have cut the Patrol Social Workers throat from ear to ear and proceeded merrily on his homicidal way.
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:46 PM
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No just training & tactics. She never moves diagonally off the X, she doesnt use the car for cover, she never shoots for the head. She did fine but more trigger time, better training & ptactice.
The difference between her and you being of course that she's been in a fight
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:50 PM
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I can't seem to post videos to here but John Correia did a very good frame-by-frame analysis of the shooting. He thinks that the malfunction was caused by a poor grip on her part. He also shows that she did not clear the malfunction on her gun. When he slowed the video down you can actually see her attacker take a swing and he slaps the gun and jars the slide stop loose. About a second later she does a Tap Rack Bang and you can clearly see that the gun is already in battery before she starts.

Michigan Deputy Defends Against Encroaching Attacker - YouTube

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Old 08-01-2020, 12:57 PM
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The difference between her and you being of course that she's been in a fight
Yes probably her first. Everyone has a first. I know plenty of LEO still not having their first. Doesn't mean you shouldnt prepare & be able to execute. We all train, ccw & leo, for that first fight, or at least we should. I'm glad she did as well as she did. Though I wouldnt pat myself on the back & say gtg, I survived my fight, back to normal. Plenty of room for delf evaluation & improvement. Careful your badge arrogance is showing.
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Old 08-01-2020, 01:01 PM
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This took me back to the early ‘80s when I had to put a knife wilding hostage taker down w/three rounds from my issued Model 15.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:35 PM
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This took me back to the early ‘80s when I had to put a knife wilding hostage taker down w/three rounds from my issued Model 15.
Yep every attacker is diff. Your first hand exp would lead you to feel 5-6rds is plenty. I will bet most LEO involved in fights that went beyond their initial load out would want more ammo.
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