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  #101  
Old 07-27-2020, 01:38 AM
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Here in Jefferson County, Alabama, I think the “protesters” would have been bought and paid for when they tore down that gate and acted toward homeowners in a menacing fashion. I’m thankful that a gunfight didn’t erupt, because the “peaceful protesters” appeared to be more heavily armed.
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  #102  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
If it did and they recorded what the homeowners said the protesters were doing, threatening with firearms and incendiary devices, they would have released the video. . .

If there is video supporting his claims of guns and bombs I’d love to see it.
And let the media pick it apart before trial? Not a chance. In the even of an incident, my home security will only be available via search warrant or the discovery process, and will be swiftly followed by a motion to seal and a motion for gag order, regardless of what it shows . . .
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  #103  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:11 AM
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And let the media pick it apart before trial? Not a chance. In the even of an incident, my home security will only be available via search warrant or the discovery process, and will be swiftly followed by a motion to seal and a motion for gag order, regardless of what it shows . . .
Evidence should be presented in court, not on the 6:00 news.
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  #104  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:26 AM
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Evidence should be presented in court, not on the 6:00 news.
Certainly a criminal attorney’s advice should be sought quickly on what to do and when to do it with credible exculpatory evidence.

If that evidence shows your proper legal conduct, it could prevent your being charged and even going to court. That is a most desirable course of action.

Withholding evidence in a criminal matter to play Ironside in court later may not be very wise at all. Having control or at least great influence on the “narrative” from the beginning is probably better than playing (and paying for) catch up in criminal court.
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  #105  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:52 AM
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I note that the couple's weapons were not seized immediately. A search warrant was issued and the pistol was not available. Supposedly the pistol was held by heir atty and still later surrendered. The couple claims the pistol was non-functional during the confrontation. [Can't be proven. You can believe it or not as you wish.]

The correct assembly by the crime lab and subsequent test firing will undoubtedly be subject to legal arguments.

I am still interested to see photos of the crowd / mob / rioters. Were they armed? Were they carrying incendiary items? Did they make threats?

I'm afraid muzzle control, trigger control with a threat not yet apparent may go against them. Had they not crossed that line, I think they should have been ok.
I'd have been supportive, if they'd have quietly sat out front drinking sweet tea, with the AR-15 and PPK/S in their laps, reading a paperback. It would have clearly sent the same message, in a non threatening and non confrontational manner.

When a firearm is used for self defense, one of the questions considered is whether you contributed to escalating the events that led to that use. In some instances it's a legal consideration, in others it is not - but in all cases it speaks to the judgement exercised by the the person claiming self defense as a justification.

In this case, even with the castle defense in MO *if* they'd have shot someone, after waving firearms at people on the street, the issue of whether their conduct escalated the situation would have come up.

That said, there would have also been no real tactical advantage in sitting out front anyway. Just stay inside until a threat to property or persons appear. There's no need to draw attention to your self when the crowd as a whole is just walking by.

Last edited by BB57; 07-27-2020 at 08:54 AM.
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  #106  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:12 AM
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No questions involved. The anarchist leadership wants to use violence to destabilize the state and federal government. The sheep following them? Who knows.
The "sheep" are the "useful idiots"..., too bad hardly anyone teaches real world history as what is happening here is how many different countries in the world have fallen...
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  #107  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:51 AM
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The "sheep" are the "useful idiots"..., too bad hardly anyone teaches real world history as what is happening here is how many different countries in the world have fallen...
Yep. I agree. Just thinking out loud - the useful idiots seem to be privileged kids, still living with their parents, and desperately searching for some kind of relevance in their life. Spoiled. Had everything given to them. Haven't had to earn anything. Don't understand the consequences of real decisions. Look at the grown men (18+) screaming like little girls when they get arrested. Sad and tragic.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #108  
Old 07-27-2020, 10:28 AM
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Of course, not one of the hundreds were acting in a threatening manner. Matter of fact they were actually singing kumbaya.

I jest of course, I wasn’t there so have no idea what really happened during the course of an hours long lovefest.


Anyone notice the inflammatory headline besides me?
You cant shoot people or assault people for what they shout at you. It is rarely enough to say I was afraid. Some people are afraid of everything. Raw fear is not a deadly force moment.
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  #109  
Old 07-27-2020, 10:36 AM
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Here in Jefferson County, Alabama, I think the “protesters” would have been bought and paid for when they tore down that gate and acted toward homeowners in a menacing fashion. I’m thankful that a gunfight didn’t erupt, because the “peaceful protesters” appeared to be more heavily armed.
Menacing, fear, ths is where it all gets mirky in a SD moment. You dont get to assault someone for yelling at you. Your fear does not trump the law. Not inside your home, but there has to be something actionable to use deadly force outside. The street in front of your house or your lawn changes a lot of things. For lawyers, they really should have had a better handle on the laws. For wealthy people, zero excuse for not having someone train you in proper use of force & a fiream.
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  #110  
Old 07-27-2020, 10:48 AM
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I'd have been supportive, if they'd have quietly sat out front drinking sweet tea, with the AR-15 and PPK/S in their laps, reading a paperback. It would have clearly sent the same message, in a non threatening and non confrontational manner.
No way should these rioters be supported by anyone. They broke down a gate.
Appeasement doesn't work. They tried to appease Hitler in the late 30's and you see where that got us.

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  #111  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:19 AM
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Lets go back to Rodney King and remember. It was the store owners that stood out front of their stores or on their roofs with AR's or AK's that kept their stores unharmed and yes they were pointing guns at the peaceful protestors (you know the people that had gas in one hand a torch or baseball bat in the other). also remember that the good PC crowd had their stores burned to the ground (where have I heard and seen this before). Time for America to wake up!
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  #112  
Old 07-27-2020, 04:04 PM
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Putting aside my suspicions about the charging decision, the subsequent seizing of the firearms does not show what condition the firearms were in at the time of the incident, and the prosecutor has to prove the condition at the time beyond a reasonable doubt. It cannot be done with regard to the pistol.

The (other) dumb part of this is that a person with clean hands who has a firearm (or what reasonably appears to be one) pointed at them would be justified in shooting until the threat was perceived to be addressed.
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  #113  
Old 07-27-2020, 04:18 PM
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Withholding evidence in a criminal matter to play Ironside in court later may not be very wise at all. Having control or at least great influence on the “narrative” from the beginning is probably better than playing (and paying for) catch up in criminal court.
Where did I say I was going to withhold evidence? I’m going to make the prosecutor and the police do their due diligence, and then I’m going to make them shut up about the case.

There are only two workable criminal defenses. The first is “I didn’t do it,” which most prosecutors figure out early in the process and then don’t bring a charge.

The second, and more common and more successful, is “You can’t prove it.” That’s where 75%, at least, of criminal cases wage their battle. As for “getting control of or influencing the narrative,” I give full faith and credit to the man or woman in the black dress at the front of the room to deal with the evidence, and not the “narrative.”

The rest of your points are duly noted . . .
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  #114  
Old 07-27-2020, 04:18 PM
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It is easy to pander to the vocal mob.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:36 PM
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No way should these rioters be supported by anyone. They broke down a gate.
Appeasement doesn't work. They tried to appease Hitler in the late 30's and you see where that got us.
I'd have been supportive of the nitwits with the guns.

The protesters? Well it depends. I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution - all of it, not just the parts I like -, and peaceful protesting is covered under the first amendment. "Peaceful" means non violent, it doesn't mean quiet or polite.

I have no idea who broke the gate or how long before this incident it happened, but Mr. and Mrs. Nitwit probably took several minutes to get armed and get out on the lawn so the folks who broke it down were long gone. The folks I saw walking by were not rioting or looting. They were not posing an imminent threat to anyone.
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  #116  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:18 PM
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What's wrong with just going about your business with a permit and a concealed weapon. No need to brandish. When the first protester gets shot they'll scatter like a flock of pigeons. Most of them don't have the nerve for a gun fight. After all, those are peaceful protests.
That happenned to one driver in seattle or someplace last month. The rioters surrounded the car beating on it. That didnt go well for him either.
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  #117  
Old 07-28-2020, 09:03 AM
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I'd have been supportive of the nitwits with the guns.

The protesters? Well it depends. I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution - all of it, not just the parts I like -, and peaceful protesting is covered under the first amendment. "Peaceful" means non violent, it doesn't mean quiet or polite.

I have no idea who broke the gate or how long before this incident it happened, but Mr. and Mrs. Nitwit probably took several minutes to get armed and get out on the lawn so the folks who broke it down were long gone. The folks I saw walking by were not rioting or looting. They were not posing an imminent threat to anyone.
The protesters were still tresspassers, even if they entered after the gate was torn down.
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  #118  
Old 07-28-2020, 11:40 AM
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Seems Gardner's office altered the pistol to make it operable before writing the charges. Possible ethics violation?

St. Louis news: Update on charges against McCloskeys - Missouri News
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Old 07-28-2020, 12:05 PM
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Seems Gardner's office altered the pistol to make it operable before writing the charges. Possible ethics violation?

St. Louis news: Update on charges against McCloskeys - Missouri News

Someone needs jail time and it’s not the McCloskeys. Fat chance though.
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Old 07-28-2020, 12:11 PM
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Perhaps prosecutors will argue that the gun was “capable” of being fired, if not at the time “readily operable”. Thus the correct assembly of the firearm was appropriate to show that the firearm could have been functional during the incident. This has actually just been admitted by McCloskeys’ attorney. It could have been altered after the fact. They have admitted to having the knowledge to do so.

Nonetheless, this would be almost impossible to prove either way in court, so the M’s would likely win that round.

More importantly, this is another red flag to the judge that the prosecution is reaching to get evidence of wrong doing. If the AG weighs in on the impropriety of altering evidence for a criminal charging, I think this judge is just going to have to say this case is too far from a successful prosecution for the state to bother.

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  #121  
Old 07-29-2020, 03:14 PM
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Missouri attorney general dismissing case against St Louis couple charged with brandishing gun | The Lion Times

As it should be.
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Old 07-29-2020, 04:07 PM
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That’s a week old, and it talks about dismissing a “lawsuit”. All the news sites I see show the criminal charges still in effect.
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Old 07-29-2020, 04:37 PM
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“. . . I am entering the case in terms of seeking the dismissal of the case . . .”

This is the AG’s original statement from a week ago. The AG filed an amicus brief with the court recommending dismissal. A judge will decide whether to do so.

There is no news that the charges have been dropped or the case dismissed.

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  #124  
Old 07-29-2020, 08:24 PM
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That’s a week old, and it talks about dismissing a “lawsuit”. All the news sites I see show the criminal charges still in effect.
More relevant, “theliontimes” ain’t exactly on Joseph Pulitzers legitimate journalism list . . .
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:20 PM
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More relevant, “theliontimes” ain’t exactly on Joseph Pulitzers legitimate journalism list . . .
LOL, what is any more? Are there any "legitimate" journalistic outlets that truly report (as opposed to spinning and editorializing) the news these days?
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:52 PM
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Why the laugh? Pretty easy to determine a real news source, if you're actually serious about reading the news. I tend to read the legitimate, historically present newspapers of a city. In this case, it is the St. Louis Post Dispatch, at stltoday.com. They can certainly be biased, but they have an office in the city they report on

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LOL, what is any more? Are there any "legitimate" journalistic outlets that truly report (as opposed to spinning and editorializing) the news these days?
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Old 07-30-2020, 01:00 AM
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Why the laugh? Pretty easy to determine a real news source, if you're actually serious about reading the news. I tend to read the legitimate, historically present newspapers of a city. In this case, it is the St. Louis Post Dispatch, at stltoday.com. They can certainly be biased, but they have an office in the city they report on
Yeah, I think you may have missed my point - or just chose to make your own instead.
FWIW, I'm pretty familiar with the Post Dispatch since I actually grew up there.
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Old 07-30-2020, 05:29 AM
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What high school did you go to . . . ?

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Yeah, I think you may have missed my point - or just chose to make your own instead.
FWIW, I'm pretty familiar with the Post Dispatch since I actually grew up there.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:28 AM
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What high school did you go to . . . ?
I started freshman year at Cleveland High in south St. Louis (the Fighting Dutchmen).
In the middle of my freshman year we moved out to South County and I went to Oakville (Tigers) for the rest of high school.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:04 PM
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I started freshman year at Cleveland High in south St. Louis (the Fighting Dutchmen).
In the middle of my freshman year we moved out to South County and I went to Oakville (Tigers) for the rest of high school.
For those who are not native Missourians. I am not from St. Louis, but I do speak the language:

"Where'd You Go To High School?" Is Not Just a St. Louis Question | News Blog
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:47 PM
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I’ve spent quite a bit of time in St Louis. What I know for sure is in certain circles one is not allowed inside without the correct answer to the high school question. At the time I enjoyed the Cards and the Blues. And I had a corporate card so that helped.
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Old 07-31-2020, 09:01 PM
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For those who are not native Missourians. I am not from St. Louis, but I do speak the language:

"Where'd You Go To High School?" Is Not Just a St. Louis Question | News Blog
Umm, OK...
So you asked the question for the purpose of... what? Judging me?
I just assumed that you asked because I said I grew up there.
Now I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make or what you're trying to say...
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:13 PM
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Nothing so nefarious. I did ask because you said you grew up there. It is the number one most asked question amongst Missourians when someone claims to be “from” St. Louis. I have been present when this question was asked and answered on both coasts, cruise ships, and foreign countries. It is a means of fact checking you. Many St. Louis area kids attend Southeast Missouri State in Cape Girardeau and claim to be “from St. Louis,” when in fact they attended high school across the river in Collinsville, Illinois, or across the other river in Wentzville, or across the other river in Arnold. Which Oakville borders. Cleveland is now proudly Cleveland NJROTC High School, functioning as a Junior Naval Academy magnet school.


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Umm, OK...
So you asked the question for the purpose of... what? Judging me?
I just assumed that you asked because I said I grew up there.
Now I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make or what you're trying to say...
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:52 PM
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Nothing so nefarious. I did ask because you said you grew up there. It is the number one most asked question amongst Missourians when someone claims to be “from” St. Louis. I have been present when this question was asked and answered on both coasts, cruise ships, and foreign countries. It is a means of fact checking you. Many St. Louis area kids attend Southeast Missouri State in Cape Girardeau and claim to be “from St. Louis,” when in fact they attended high school across the river in Collinsville, Illinois, or across the other river in Wentzville, or across the other river in Arnold. Which Oakville borders. Cleveland is now proudly Cleveland NJROTC High School, functioning as a Junior Naval Academy magnet school.
OK, so the point was to fact check me? No problem there. Though I guess I might not pass the test according to some people.
I attended most of elementary and middle school in St. Louis proper (Brian Hill, Forest Park, Grant, Wade, Mt. Pleasant) but other than the first half of my freshman year at Cleveland, I didn't technically go to high school IN St. Louis, but rather in the suburbs of St. Louis.
Close enough for government work though. I think I can still lay claim to having grown up there.
Cool to learn of Cleveland becoming a military affiliated school.
FWIW, we used to go to Arnold to go bowling.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:25 PM
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Same thing about people saying they are from Seattle. When asked carefully, and more in-depth, many assume 50 miles away is in "Seattle" Also the "native Seattleite" question usually revoilves around coming here some time ago that they think they are now "natives" or "locals"

If you weren't born IN Seattle, and don't live IN Seattle, you are neither a native or living in Seattle.

Just say "near Seattle" or "I've been here since XXXX"
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:40 PM
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Same thing about people saying they are from Seattle. When asked carefully, and more in-depth, many assume 50 miles away is in "Seattle" Also the "native Seattleite" question usually revoilves around coming here some time ago that they think they are now "natives" or "locals"

If you weren't born IN Seattle, and don't live IN Seattle, you are neither a native or living in Seattle.

Just say "near Seattle" or "I've been here since XXXX"
Yeah, I always said I lived in the Seattle area (Kirkland, Bothell, Kent). Now I'm glad to be able to say I LIVED in the Seattle area for 30 years...
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:41 PM
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OK, so the point was to fact check me? No problem there. . .
I fact check everything. Still get fooled, but my next check is always better. In the words of Ronald Reagan, trust but verify.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:47 PM
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so for post #138 on this thread, will ask..just what is it now about?
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:26 PM
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so for post #138 on this thread, will ask..just what is it now about?
LOL, you'll find that thread drift is "normal" around here.
Check out the "Annoyed at Thread Drift" thread started by GeddyLee10002000 a few years ago - it ran for over 1000 pages before being closed. It is epic...
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:38 PM
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Default MO Castle Doctrine

Been following this. Many references to MO Castle Doctrine. Please educate me. Does MO law allow you to point a firearm at someone in your front yard, on the street in front of your house in a gated community? In TN, where I live, if you find someone rifling through your car in your driveway and you point a gun at them, it is Aggravated Assault. If they come through your door, different story.

So, those of you who applied the MO Castle Doctrine to this case, tell me, can you point a gun at or shoot someone who is in your yard?

Serious question, not trying to take a side here. What I'm hearing is just not my understanding of the typical "castle doctrine."

Thank you.......
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:56 PM
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Been following this. Many references to MO Castle Doctrine. Please educate me. Does MO law allow you to point a firearm at someone in your front yard, on the street in front of your house in a gated community? In TN, where I live, if you find someone rifling through your car in your driveway and you point a gun at them, it is Aggravated Assault. If they come through your door, different story.

So, those of you who applied the MO Castle Doctrine to this case, tell me, can you point a gun at or shoot someone who is in your yard?

Serious question, not trying to take a side here. What I'm hearing is just not my understanding of the typical "castle doctrine."

Thank you.......
I went thru it, cant find anything that says you can use deadly force to remove trespassers or even to protect property. It says you may use force to protect property, but deadly force, which is pointing a gun at someone, is diff.
1. A person may, subject to the limitations of subsection 2, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such person of stealing, property damage or tampering in any degree.
2. A person may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 only when such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter.
3. The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of physical restraint as protective force provided that the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the restraint as soon as it is reasonable to do so.
4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.
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Old 08-02-2020, 12:35 AM
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..."Where'd You Go To High School?" Is Not Just a St. Louis Question | News Blog[/url]
Locals who have family living in this area for generations often ask "Well, who are your people?"
I was born and went to high school in Baltimore, but my family goes back in Virginia to Jamestown.
Nonetheless, the guy who asked that question never lets me off the damyankee appellation, even though I was born below the Mason Dixon line.
After putting up with that for years, I put my genealogy skills to work on his family line, and found out his gggrandfather was a Union infantryman from Ohio who came back after the Civil War and settled in central Virginia.
I haven't called my friend a yankee in disguise or some such yet, because he's been quiet about my origins for some time, but if he pushes me, he's getting tagged with Carpetbagger.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:21 PM
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I am not sure that there is a typical "castle doctrine", as state laws can vary so much. Likewise "stand your ground" laws, which overcome the obnoxious "duty to retreat" garbage. There may be general understandings of them, and similarities among them, but there is not a model of which I am aware such as there is with traffic laws. The politics of a particular state can impact how the law is worded, and the case law can vary a lot.

That is putting aside that the tactics of these two are abysmal, and their gun handling worse.
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:21 PM
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So, those of you who applied the MO Castle Doctrine to this case, tell me, can you point a gun at or shoot someone who is in your yard?
Apparently the statutes on self defense quoted and referred to in previous posts in this thread are sufficiently broad in wording to allow such behavior. The MO Attorney General has intervened in the case saying the couple acted within their rights. The governor agrees.

I think the elements folks are missing in this thread have to do with the couple’s “fear” and “necessary force”. Their fear was not caused simply by some trespassers walking by their property and shouting threats at them. The totality of the situation may include the incessant reporting of the violence that similar crowds had produced in the preceding days in nearby neighborhoods. That violence included significant property damage and in some cases, personal injury. Some marchers have been armed.

Not knowing to what violent extent these law breaking protesters were ready to go, the couple armed themselves. The numbers of people passing by could certainly be considered a “disparate force” under self defense laws. At any time a group of 10 or more, one or more perhaps armed, could have formed up out of sight and then rushed the couple. They were passing as close as about 25 feet which would take less than three seconds to reach the couple. That possibility would scare most people into some kind of serious and powerful defensive actions.

There may be several other aggravating factors that justified the couple’s actions in their minds at that time as the laws require. We as arm chair quarterbacks cannot possibly get inside their minds, but the laws specifically state that their actions could have been justified by the totality of circumstances.

So, when their actions are analyzed in the narrow scope of another state’s laws or what any of us might have done differently without knowing the totality of circumstances, our analyses come up with different conclusions.
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