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Old 07-20-2020, 06:38 PM
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Default St Louis couple charged

The couple that waived guns at protesters get charged:

. St. Louis prosecutor charges white couple for pulling guns on protesters

These folks are wealthy: they’ll experience little financial impact from the criminal process, although they could certainly lose their right to firearms as convicted felons.
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Old 07-20-2020, 06:43 PM
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Now we'll see if their governor walks the walk or just talks the talk.
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Old 07-20-2020, 06:59 PM
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I believe they have a Federal case against the city. The pair are lawyers they will make money on the deal.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:07 PM
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The STL. prosecuting attorney is facing a primary vote Aug.4, for election to another term...Hmmmm...?????
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:18 PM
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Whatever the reason, it stinks. Doing this just reinforces the thought in the heads of rioters "you can do whatever you want with no reprecussions". I hope they sue the City and win a huge settlement.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:21 PM
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Based strictly on the law I'll say I saw this coming.

This is a perfect example of people who own guns but do NOT truly understand the law.

The basic issue is why did you brandish your weapon? If the response is I was in fear for my life then the next question is why didn't you shoot? You must not have really really been in fear for your life therefore you needlessly brandished your weapon.

I'm sure many will say I got my gun to prevent the situation from getting out of hand/prevent it from escalating. That's fine but in 99% of the jurisdictions that is NOT sufficient justification to brandish a firearm.

Bottom line is if your in fear for your life shoot. If your not in fear then no gun. PERIOD.

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Old 07-20-2020, 07:21 PM
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I predicted charges but hope the governor comes through.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:28 PM
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Rarely have there been better candidates for anger management classes (which is basically what the DA is seeking)
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:29 PM
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If they hadn't pointed the guns at the protestors they would have been OK. Standing there armed and gun held at low ready would have worked as well as pointing the guns at people and wouldn't have got them in trouble.
If the protestors had then proceeded to advance aggressively pointing and firing the guns would likely have been justified.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
I believe they have a Federal case against the city. The pair are lawyers they will make money on the deal.
For what? Its already been adjudicated; you have no individual right of protection by the police. Why I tell people to buy a gun, get some training & understand the laws. The cops will never save you. They may come after a crime but they will never save you in the critical first few seconds in your fight.
Buying a gun is not enough. You need training & practice to put he training to use. Those two idiots were just fortunate no one was shot, including the guy by his wife! She must have flagged him 1/2 dozen times with her finger on the trigger! Idiots! I hope they get off though, it sets a bad precident & reflects on all gun owners but we should be better than that.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:01 PM
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A case of cold water or a Gatorade by the street probably would have gotten a few thank you’s from the protestors. The protestors had to break the gate to get into the gated coMmunity, but other than that I didn’t see any threats from anyone other than McCluskey and his trigger happy wife.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:03 PM
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Missouri has the Castle Law. I believe they were within their rights under that statute. I believe the Governor will make good on his previous statement.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:31 PM
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Based strictly upon the the law, a firearm utilized in a Missouri charge of Unlawful Use of a Weapon must be "readily capable of lethal use . . . " Patricia's handgun was inoperable.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:32 PM
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Regardless of the couple's absolute right to own weapons their handling negligence during the incident was on a felony level of incompetance and idiocy.
And when we let idiots hide behind the 2nd amendment without calling out their idiotic actions it only damages our rights, not support them.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:36 PM
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I missed the "competence clause" for utilizing one's 2nd Amendment rights. The literacy test for voting, arguably a much more dangerous right, was struck down decades ago . . .

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Regardless of the couple's absolute right to own weapons their handling negligence during the incident was on a felony level of incompetance and idiocy.
And when we let idiots hide behind the 2nd amendment without calling out their idiotic actions it only damages our rights, not support them.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:37 PM
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The Attorney General has, apparently, filed a motion with the presiding judge to dismiss the charges on the basis of the Second Amendment and the state castle doctrine.

Its in the judge's hands now.
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:03 PM
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The peaceful protesters threaten to take over their house, kill their dog, kill them, had already vandalized the gate and here we sit putting down and questioning their gun handling under stress, stating that they need anger management, maybe give the nice trespassers A case of cold water or a Gatorade... JMHO these two should be given a carton of cigarettes a six pack of beer and sent on their way. And the DA that charged em needs a good swift kick right between the front pockets

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Old 07-20-2020, 09:04 PM
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Castle doctrine, in virtually every state, requires an objectively reasonable fear of imminent harm to invoke. It's not "do whatever the heck you want when you're on your property without fear of legal repercussions".
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:38 PM
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Everyone is allowed to defend their lives without training required, end of story, period.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
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Missouri has the Castle Law. I believe they were within their rights under that statute. I believe the Governor will make good on his previous statement.
The issue was pointng weapons at people. In most states that is considered assault with deadly weapon. They were not under attack as they stated, at least the video shows nothing thrown, no one advancing on them with a weapon.
If I am driving & a guy has a road rage & we pull off the road. He exits his vehicle & stands there. No weapon, yells he's gonna kill me but never advances. I pull my weapon & point it at him & threaten to shoot him if he advances. Self defense or assault? Pretty much what happened.
If would have no ssues if they went outside with guns at low ready, but as soon as you start pointing them at umarmed people, its a criminal act. Not to mention the shear amateur handling & potential danger from sweeping each other with fingers on triggers.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:41 PM
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I believe they have a Federal case against the city. The pair are lawyers they will make money on the deal.
When this is over they'll own St. Louis. The prosecutor is making a big financial mistake, never mind the legalities and rights issues.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
The Attorney General has, apparently, filed a motion with the presiding judge to dismiss the charges on the basis of the Second Amendment and the state castle doctrine.

Its in the judge's hands now.
Quote:
The issue was pointng weapons at people. In mst stayes that is cndidered assailt with deadly weapon. They were not under attack as they stayed, atnleast the video shows nothing thrown, no one advancing on them with a weapon.
Focus on ALL OF the facts. Which we don't have. Once the facts are in evidence I'm wagering the McCloskeys will make St. Louis sorry they started this.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:47 PM
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Must


not

reply

to

this

thread.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:49 PM
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Focus on ALL OF the facts. Which we don't have. Once the facts are in evidence I'm wagering the McCloskeys will make St. Louis sorry they started this.
Everyone can see the video. It doesn't matter what the rioters were saying, only actions matter. Had they been properly trained, none of this would matter. Sling your ar, holster your pistol & go stand on your porch. A show of force without actually assaulting anyone. The 2A is not sacrosanct guys. You dont get to go point guns at everyone that scares you.
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Old 07-20-2020, 11:06 PM
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The Castle doctrine once the closed gate was broken down permits them to protect themselves with lethal force. The DA took two weeks to find something she could charge them with. She had their weapons illegally confiscated. There will be a big payday and the DA will loose.
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Old 07-20-2020, 11:27 PM
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A right exercised incompetently doesn't make it unlawful.

I don't expect a civil suit to go anywhere, but I also don't expect them to see the insides of a prison.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:29 AM
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While the homeowners made some mistakes, the prosecutor needs to be charged with something. I forget what the legal term is. Something like malicious prosecution.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:54 AM
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I said at the time they will be charged for brandishing deadly weapons. Stupid, stupid move to stand in the front yard pointing weapons.

They are rich lawyers, they can lawyer up and deal with the charges. They should sue everyone involved with the charges.

This should be a lesson or reminder, don't bring the gun if you don't have reason to shoot it.
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Old 07-21-2020, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Everyone can see the video. It doesn't matter what the rioters were saying, only actions matter. Had they been properly trained, none of this would matter. Sling your ar, holster your pistol & go stand on your porch. A showcof force without actually assaulting anyone. The 2A is not sacrosanct guys. You dont get to go point guns at everyone that scares you.
There are limitations to freedom of speech too.
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:06 AM
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The AG and Gov. have now steeped up to remedy this situation - as they should have a while ago. Sickening to come to the conclusion the animals have been let out of the cages and the zoo keepers are now inside.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:48 AM
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AND ANOTHER THING! This is EXACTLY why we have a 2nd Amd. To protect one self from tyranny. Tyranny dose not have to come from a King or the Gov., it can also come from a mob, ex-(if i cant have her no one will)boy friend/husband, looters,etc. This "inalienable right" is NOT dependent on ones ability to show safe gun handling to the satisfaction of some Gov. agent, his/her designee, or internet commando. The wife in this story is a stressed fearful middle aged lawyer, but I'm willing to bet that if she was some sweet good looking young thing biting her nails on one hand, holding a gun with the other, and pointing it at everything but the ground, Half the neg. posters here would be falling all over them selves defending her actions. That is those that are not just jumping on the lets tear em down band wagon. Maybe a fair number of us need to take a good look into our own hearts.

I need a break! good bye
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Old 07-21-2020, 08:29 AM
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The couple called for police help and they were left on their own. Told to flee their property. Rioters broke in property. You see very little video of rioters, some were said to be armed. The couple were clueless on handling firearms. They were in a complete breakdown of the law. This breakdown was cultivated by politics. The charges are politically motivated. The couples gun handling ability has nothing to do with this case. Their past history has nothing to do with it. Even the jerks they are deserve protection and if authorities can’t provide it and do nothing to stop the crime of the rioters, a DA should have a hard time convicting them of anything. In such a free for all situation the chapter and verse of civil laws are void. The DA should be investigated for bringing charges. They seem to have plenty of desecration when it comes to charging the rioters. Were is it for law abiding citizens?
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:05 AM
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Old 07-21-2020, 09:31 AM
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Maybe this couple were born without and never acquired any common
sense. I say again their actions as to brandishing weapons and waving
them around at people were not prudent. Surely any reasonable person
would not have thought their life or limb was in danger, if so, take cover
and have weapons at the ready.
We supporters of the 2nd need not support people who act this reckless
and stupid. Just like you can not support someone shouting FIRE in a
crowded theater when no fire is present.
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:00 AM
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I think knowingly or unknowingly the couple made themselves pawns in a game of political chess. Most likely they won't go to jail and most likely they won't win a dime.

It's an election year. The county attorney has a built in set of talking points for her base about their opponents and gun control. The gov and AG have a built in set of talking points for their base about their opponents and the 2A.

For me, the important point is if you have an SD event, depending on where you live, politics and press coverage may have more to do with the outcome than "revised statute xx.yy.zz says this."
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:46 AM
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What's wrong with just going about your business with a permit and a concealed weapon. No need to brandish. When the first protester gets shot they'll scatter like a flock of pigeons. Most of them don't have the nerve for a gun fight. After all, those are peaceful protests.
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPD256 View Post
A case of cold water or a Gatorade by the street probably would have gotten a few thank you’s from the protestors. The protestors had to break the gate to get into the gated coMmunity, but other than that I didn’t see any threats from anyone other than McCluskey and his trigger happy wife.
I couldn't agree more. In my state, they would have been charged with aggravated assault.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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I missed the "competence clause" for utilizing one's 2nd Amendment rights. .
Competance as a barrier to 2nd amendment rights, and of secondary importance to the right to own and negligently brandish firearms?

With all rights come responsibility, and with the ownership and handling of lethal weapons, competance should be the lowest bar of reasonable accountability.

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Old 07-21-2020, 11:08 AM
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All we have seen so far is video from one of the "peaceful demonstrators" cell phone. I'm sure the McCuskey's have security cameras outside their property. Lets see that footage. I'm sure it would show the gate being broken into and the angry mob advancing toward the house. The mob had no right to enter their property!
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by double-dipper View Post
All we have seen so far is video from one of the "peaceful demonstrators" cell phone. I'm sure the McCuskey's have security cameras outside their property. Lets see that footage. I'm sure it would show the gate being broken into and the angry mob advancing toward the house. The mob had no right to enter their property!
Criminal tresspass des not justify lethal force. Pointing guns at people is lethal force, never have to pull the trigger.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:43 AM
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The problem with the "broken gate" is that there is video of the gate fully intact while the protesters are walking through it. The gate was broken at a later point in time... Broken only once the McCuskey's realized they were in the national spotlight. I'm pretty sure any video of the gate being damaged has been deleted.

Having a lawyer come out and later state that the handgun was "inoperable" is laughable.

Even if you live in a private gated community, you can't just go around waving guns at people because they are walking by your house or at worse stepping on your grass.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:44 AM
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If government is going to hold us to the rules, i.e., the laws, then government aught to be playing by the rules as well, and that means not telling the police to stand down and deny the people protection. If government abandons the rules they're expected to play by then it just seems wrong for it to nit-pick how non-professionals hold their guns while protecting themselves because government wouldn't do it.
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:52 AM
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If government is going to hold us to the rules, i.e., the laws, then government aught to be playing by the rules as well, and that means not telling the police to stand down and deny the people protection. If government abandons the rules they're expected to play by then it just seems wrong for it to nit-pick how non-professionals hold their guns while protecting themselves because government wouldn't do it.
Of course, not one of the hundreds were acting in a threatening manner. Matter of fact they were actually singing kumbaya.

I jest of course, I wasn’t there so have no idea what really happened during the course of an hours long lovefest.


Anyone notice the inflammatory headline besides me?
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:00 PM
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Seems to me it's the same old, same old, and this includes many things, not just this particular situation. Go after the people who mainly abide by the law, give people a "pass" when they are a problem to prosecute (felons who run after bail, murders unsolved, etc...). That way people can see that someone did "something"...
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
If they hadn't pointed the guns at the protestors they would have been OK. Standing there armed and gun held at low ready would have worked as well as pointing the guns at people and wouldn't have got them in trouble.
If the protestors had then proceeded to advance aggressively pointing and firing the guns would likely have been justified.
I've been in a few riot control situations and saw residents sitting on porches with guns laying across their arms or laps. This was enough of a deterrent for the rioters to keep walking. Pointing guns at people walking by changes the situation.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:58 PM
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There's an old adage that bad cases make bad law. This couple is not who I would want for 2nd Amendment poster children. The wife in particular was completely out of control, sweeping herself and her husband almost continuously as well as pointing her pistol at the protesters. Operable or inoperable, this woman does not have the mental capacity to bear arms. The husband at least sometimes made some effort to keep the AR pointed in a safe direction. He needs some remedial training and discipline but maybe is not a hopeless case.

I have seen nothing in the videos released so far that would justify lethal force. I wish they had merely displayed the weapons without ever pointing them in the direction of the protesters. Then, the state AG intervening might have produced some useful precedent. But intervening on these bad facts risks producing bad precedent, reducing gun rights for Missourians and giving the anti's a victory. It's a bad case. I hope no bad law comes out of it.
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:56 PM
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Foundfather, your technical points are all valid. But not everyone is a professional or expert gun handler, and when government stops protecting the people, we can't expect only the expert or professional gun handlers to protect themselves. If government, e.g., the mayor, was doing her job, then the novice gun handlers could have relied on the police for protection rather than wading into an arena they aren't a part of. They did what a prudent person would do, even given their apparent lack of training. The blame should be assigned to government, not them.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:16 PM
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1) The protesters broke down a private gate and were trespassing on private property. They weren’t walking in public road.
2) Before that particular video there were aggressive protesters, some armed, threatening the couple with death, burning their house down, and killing their dog. You saw them at their most agitated by protesters with an agenda.
3) Missouri Castle Law is abundantly clear and they are protected by it.
4) The DA of St Louis is bought and paid for by Soros PAC. $193,000 contribution to her campaign. Meanwhile she released every single rioters and looters arrested in the previous weeks for violence and arson with no charges.

The message is clear. If you defy or interfere with the Far Left you will be punished.

I live 5 minutes from Ferguson (yes that Ferguson) and this is what North St Louis County looked like a month ago:

https://twitter.com/Eric_Schmitt/sta...953176576?s=20

You tell me you if that doesn’t make you want to be armed and prepared...

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Old 07-21-2020, 02:44 PM
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You tell me you if that doesn’t make you want to be armed and prepared...
Ha! No worries there. Armed and prepared? If the AR jams, the AK will take over, with Soviet milsurp ammo out the wazzou. But if I ever have to make a stand on my porch, I won't look like an idiot doing it.
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Old 07-21-2020, 03:31 PM
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These acts of intimidation are going to intensify. When they’re done intimidating politicians, they will move on to journalists and pundants who call them out, then onto you and me.

They already own the press.

They will not stand for any opposing views or dialog. It’s not like these tactics haven’t been used before. The 1930’s being a prime example.

Think they won’t use social media to find the next target?

Be forewarned, be ready.
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