I've said it many times and I'll continue; don't use your gun as a threat.

The only time your gun should come out of the holster, except the range and for maintenance or storage at home, is when your life is in danger.

I'm not going to post the video here because it doesn't meet the language standards on this site, but here's a screen shot of a terrible situation:


The man in the truck is feeling threatened by the crowd and he presents his gun in an apparent attempt to get them to leave him alone. The guy in the helmet has responded with a gun of his own. Neither intends to shoot, but both are now in violation of law.

The eternal question: What do you do when they don't follow your demands?

The only answer is to shoot, but it wouldn't be justified. Why? Because your life isn't in danger. If it were, you would have shot right away. Situations like this can only end badly.

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Freedom isn't free.

A lot of questions arise from this snapshot and the explanation given.

If the guy in the truck felt threatened, he should simply drive away. Nobody has overtly threatened him by blocking his path, or trying to drag him out of his truck (lock your doors, man), or throwing bricks through his windshield. He's in a big steel and glass cocoon that moves. So, move it and himself away from the threat. Your description says he pulled the pistol to make the crowd "leave him alone". Were they making threats, or just taunting him? Had the guy in the helmet already drawn his gun, giving the guy in the truck reason to believe he was in mortal danger?

But, he chose to become a threat himself, by opening his door, pulling and pointing a gun, whether he actually intended to shoot it or not. Showing of a weapon solely as intimidation is brandishing; pointing it at someone is assault, pulling the trigger adds 'with intent to kill'. Then comes the murder or manslaughter charge if he actually kills someone, or 'committing serious injury' if he doesn't.

Enter the guy with the helmet on (looks a little like John Lennon). Why he is at a protest and carrying a weapon leads me to think he might have been looking for trouble, as much as being prepared for it. At any rate, He meets what he perceived as a threat to his life with armed force, and might have been justified if he had shot the guy in the truck, depending on the "stand your ground" or "duty or ability to retreat" laws in Oregon. Or, he could have taken cover to protect himself and waited to see if the guy in the truck was serious or not. But he didn't.

Now, it's become a Mexican Standoff, because guy in truck didn't intend to shoot, and guy with helmet didn't immediately answer the threat.

The only thing either of them can legally do now, is put their guns away.

Last question is, who is shooting the video, and are they also armed; and how stupid are they to be that close to a potential gunfight where they could easily become collateral damage?

I'd like to see the unedited video, if you have a link.

Lots and lots of folks aren't afraid of someone pointing a gun at them because they know that to shoot will give the shooter legal trouble. Especially thugs (including thuglets and thugettes) know that if they're not armed or violently attacking, you really can't "...do them nothing." Depending on their upbringing and peers, they may well be afraid but be absolutely more afraid to back down.

Sorry to be repetitive - a gun is not a magic wand.

Depending on who displayed the weapon first... the other would seemingly be justified to defend themselves. Agree, really stupid to engage in a potentially deadly confrontation that one could have avoided.
Driver could have closed door and left the scene. Pedestrian could possibly have backed away, avoiding the confrontation. Is this staged?
If this went to a gun fight... I would much rather show I tried to avoid deadly force, than that I stood my ground.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Mindset and maturity play a big role and unfortunately the ego gets in the way of a lot of people. Don't draw unless you intend to use it.

But we just keep preaching to the choir... because "them hot heads" won't ever listen to experience, knowledge and common sense.

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Jorge

My Dad said something 1 time when I was learning to fly 'Be dead right in your actions or you will become dead quick" Applies to Aircraft, Cars, Boats and Firearms.

I've seen this pic pop up a few places. Every time, I have the same thought: "why is John Lennon carrying a gun?"

Clearly he's "re-imagining". Apparently, it isn't hard to do...

(Nothing to kill or die for...)

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642-1, M&P15 TS

He should've just stuck to watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.

Agreed.

In the longer video you can see that he's surrounded by at least 20 people and there's a larger protest going on in the background.

In the longer video you can hear him telling people to go away and leave him alone. I have no idea when helmet guy pulled his gun.

I completely agree and this is why I posted it. It's a stupid move and will only end badly.

There were at least 7 people filming this that you can see in the video. All of them were closer than 2 yards. This is the new normal with everyone capturing video on their phone.

As I said, this video violates the language rules of this site. So, no link will be provided. However, you'll notice that I left the title in the image I clipped so, you can put in a tiny bit of your own work and look the video up yourself. There are at least two versions out there.


All that aside, the actual video here is not the crux of this. The point is, don't pull your gun unless you have a need to shoot. All other options end in disaster for all parties.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm no expert and I sure don't have all the facts but I guarantee you that if a criminal puts a gun in my face, I'm going to put a round in his face and yes, I've got tons of lawyers I trust to keep me out of jail

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I only take a knee for God

In ‘68 the police academy told us not to use our guns to scare anyone b/c bad guys already knew when we were allowed to shoot. That proved to be true over the next 30 yrs and nothing’s changed since I retired.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I said it on another thread, and Mrs and I discussed it at length the other day. The only time I would unholster my pistol in a defense situation is when I intend to pull the trigger. She asked if I would use it to warn someone off. I said no. If I feel the need to pull the gun, I must feel enough of a threat to pull the trigger.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

And I should add that I pray to God I never find myself in that situation.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

I've already spoken at length on the matter, so I'm going to be blunt...

At this point in time this seems to be the sort of behavior that's to be expected from the lowest common denominator, the sort of folks who go to pieces under pressure and basically begin acting on pure emotional impulse or animal instinct rather than logic. The sort of people who have most likely spent their entirely lives refusing to take personal responsibility for their actions, believe themselves to be blameless, and most often subscribe to unilateral beliefs that there's no such thing as good and evil, right or wrong, just or unjust, moral or immoral because it enables them to relinquish all responsibility, lay the blame for their actions on something else, and never have to behave like a responsible adult.

Fortunately, I don't believe that most folks here need to be told this, but you don't draw your firearm at all unless a situation has escalated beyond the point of being resolved by words, there's no viable opportunity to safely retreat, and the absolute only way to save yourself is to pull the trigger and drop the threat. PERIOD.
In other words, treat your firearm as a last resort, because that's essentially what it is intended for, and the only circumstance in which you can justify pointing it at someone else.

You know that rule about keeping your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot? Well, in Self-Defense it goes a step further; Keep your fingers off the grip until you're ready to shoot.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

With all those people recording... guy in truck, announce "I am leaving. Get out of my way!" Put gun down, close door, back up slowly & carefully and drive away. (In tight quarters, I like to use my flashers, backing up.)
Once you put your gun down and announce your intention to leave, HE becomes the AGGRESSOR.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

If the gun comes, it should only be under circumstances where you’re ready and justified to fire, however, there are numerous possible scenarios where you won’t have and the gun will have been an effective deterrent.

Shoot the other guys gun out of his hand?

...

...

Oh c'mon, fellas...

You know it ain't easy. You know how hard it can be.

The way things are going, they're gonna crucify him.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

Dictums like those pronounced here about never drawing without shooting need to be explained as pertaining to some very specific but common personal defense situations.

Preservation of life is goal #1. Any advantage I can give myself I am going to use. Prosecutors and courts are a secondary concern. If I’m dead, they won’t matter.

OK, I'll bite, what are those situations? Remember, this is about threatening someone with your gun and making demands that they're supposed to follow.

Ok, go.

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Freedom isn't free.

I think there's a difference between drawing a gun when deadly force is justified but presenting the gun makes shooting no longer necessary, having a gun in hand as a precautionary measure if its need in the immediate future is anticipated, and using a gun as a means to threaten and compel compliance.

The first situation is certainly a possibility, and should be considered in one's training/practice regimen. The second situation is certainly useful in some scenarios, but may not be appropriate in all. The third situation, which I believe is the focus of this thread, is probably more likely to end in a negative result than anything positive.

Just my opinion.

I wonder how that ended assuming no shots were fired....who blinked first and lowered their weapon and what was being said / done at the time to make them re-think their choice? Hmmm?

OP has a good point. This is also why I don't open carry. It only gives the nut jobs out there a reason and information to make false reports against you.

I recieved this bit of wisdom from one of my firearms instructors...a legitimate act of self defense should come as a surprise to both parties. That would've avoided the situation as described in the OP's video.

Pointing a weapon unnecessarily should always be avoided. Having said that, having a handgun in one's hand is the quickest draw. There are times when the "quickest draw" is necessary.

The average American Gun Owner buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers. They buy the cheapest thing at a gun shop or big box store with a sporting goods department, shoot maybe twenty rounds through it if it is a handgun, and throw it in a sock drawer or glove compartment for the next twenty years. If it is a long gun, they shoot maybe five rounds and throw it in a closet.

Then you have the folks that actually get a CCW. Guess what, most don't regularly carry. To them, it is a "just in case" thing. Like a "Oh, I have it just in case things are bad Downtown and I have to go there for business. I'll carry that day". It too is a magic talisman and a sense of falsehood. I see it all time.

Your average gun owner has no understanding of tactics, training, the laws, safety, etc... Your average gun owner is pretty much a safety hazard both physically and legally speaking.

Nobody's right when everybody's wrong.

I give you Dr Al's 3 step plan to avoid shooting people:

1) Avoid
2) Evade
3) Escape

Avoid - whether it's a person, place or situation, just be somewhere else.

Evade - If you see trouble on the horizon, go somewhere else.

Escape - If you walk into it anyway or it finds you, look for an escape route.

If you follow my proven 3 step formula, you probably won't need a 4 step formula.

I don't know if the guy on the right had a compelling reason to be driving around/through a riot. But he failed at step 1.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

Without seeing the entire unedited video I'd have to say you nailed it. The driver, if in fear of great bodily harm would have been justified all day long to use his vehicle to remove himself from that dangerous area, and when any protesters put the driver in fear for his life, the passive protesters are lawful targets of the drivers defensive actions as well.

What scares ME is that there are MANY people like this out there; perhaps legally carrying, but unknowledgable and untrained.

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Stay protected my friends.

That's a great plan. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to avoid trouble. Troublemakers get a vote too, and there's not always an escape route.

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Stay protected my friends.

Sounds just like something out of the anti-gun groups play book.

No, I'm not accusing you of being anti gun, especially given your time on the forum.

Oh, I'm not anti-gun by any means. I just fully understand the truth of the situation. I am split between the libertarian side of me where I fully believe everyone has the right to liberty. And then comes the reality part of me kicks in. Where I understand that with liberty and freedom comes personal responsibility.

Most people wants the fun stuff that comes with liberty and freedom, but they never want to assume the boring stuff that comes with personal responsibility. I see it all the time on just about every subject matter.

Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

I was at a very rural gas station at 2a.m. A car pulls up, the guy gets out (his GF stays in the running car). The guy starts demanding that I help him. I say no. He tries crowding me. I demand he leaves me the hell alone. I grip my snubbie while keeping it in my pocket, while turning that side of my body away from the freak.
He wasn't willing to find out what I had in the pocket. I got out of there safely.

Yes. They’re both numbskulls.

I, too, can imagine scenarios where as a last resort it makes sense to pull a gun and, if the threat abates, not shoot. But I can’t imagine a scenario in which I felt so threatened that when I had my gun out and leveled, that I wouldn’t shoot if the threat tried to pull a gun on me.

Agree, in todays world you may have to make your escape route. Flashers, horn, gas peddle. If they get run over they get run over. Never get out of the vehicle unless better cover or escape is immediately available.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Yet its true! The avg person buying a gun gets zero training with it. I see them at ccw quals & at local ranges. It takes 5sec to acess someones skill level handling a weapon. There are a lot of gun owners out there just waiting for an accident to happen. Some even make national news like the idiot couple in StLouis. I know 2A, but dang, get some training. Its a gun not a toaster.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I'd say Miami JBT's assessment is SPOT ON

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Retired Career Security Guard

Mostly agree, except with the above.

In my state a really high number of people with CHP's, IIRC something over 85%, don't carry. Absolutely nothing to do with a magic talisman.

Each city, town, and county in the state has their own ordinances for handgun ownership and possession. The laws can change as you drive from town to town.

For those with a CHP there's a single set of laws that apply statewide for purchase, non-registration, ownership, transportation, concealed carry, open carry, prohibited areas, and sale of handguns. Most people got their CHP because it made ownership easier, not because they intended to carry or they needed a talisman.

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Vegan by proxy.

I understand your point with this, but the comment about the "magic talisman" doesn't really apply to those who get a CCW for the purposes you state. The idea is that many people think, "Phew, I have a gun therefore, I'm safe." Nothing could be further from the truth.

One of my favorite quotes from Jeff Cooper, "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

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Freedom isn't free.

Well, if all else fails there's always my patented 4 step plan. But it involves a lot more paperwork.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

They still don't carry. And if they do it is because "bad stuff is happening".

Have related this exact scenario herein several times, at least.

Two knuckleheads were thrown out of a bar. One broke the glass door on his way out. I suggested they leave without further incident.

One told the other: ‘Go get the gun!’ As I didn’t have to go anywhere to get mine I drew and ordered them proned out on the sidewalk until the local police arrived.

Note: Though a LEO at the time I was not in primary jurisdiction and was essentially acting as an armed citizen.

Pointed a gun at people hundreds of times during my crimefighting days. Happily never had to shoot anyone.

ALL incidents involving ‘use’ of a firearm had to be reported. In every case my ‘use’ was deemed justified.

Be safe...be well.

Maybe just your state, but in most states, a ccw/chp is for carry not making anything easier for the gun owner. In many stayes a ccw is just an application. In some states, its class time & a qual, so more work & money. If one is going that far, then pony up the time & money for at least one decent class on how to fight with a gun. Then practice so you dont do something stupid with th gun.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

If you draw your gun just to threaten somebody or to brandish without the intent to actually use it, you could be making a serious mistake. I think this is Rastoff’s point, and it is well taken.

However, in a situation that involves drawing your gun, your intent should be to shoot if necessary. There are steps that should be taken in between drawing and pulling the trigger. In the 1.5-3 seconds that it takes to draw from concealment and “point in”, a threatening situation can change dramatically. You may not any longer be justified in shooting. The pull-the-trigger decision before even starting the draw can be a mistake.

Having a gun in your hand will almost always allow for a faster, more accurate first shot than having to draw from concealment. It is a tactical advantage to have your gun drawn if you’re going to have to use it.

Issuing commands to a threat is a strategy taught by some schools of gun training. In a civilian sense I don’t believe it is necessary or required. If you do decide to issue commands, gun in hand, which are not followed and you perceive a deadly threat then you’re justified to shoot. The problem is whether you are committed to shooting an adversary or only scaring him/them. When you draw you should be committed to shooting but have the presence of mind NOT to do so. Such fast decisions are very training dependent. There are certain “go or no go” signals your brain must process very quickly.

If I lived in a “duty to retreat state“, I would probably want to draw my gun and have it ready for me while retreating, especially if covering others. I should be committed to using it if necessary if retreat does not stop the threat.

While not counting on this as a winning strategy, it is true in at least some cases that the mere presence of a firearm will deter an attack.

If someone is standing 20’ from me with a bat, knife or machete, I would not wait to draw. I would even point in but not fire unless that individual ignored my deadly force threat by closing the gap. Many aggressors would not attack a gun in such a circumstance, but if he chose to, you are far ahead of having to draw from concealment. You also have more latitude and focus in decision making.

I do not believe you are required to shoot if you draw, but you should be able to do so if the circumstances warrant it. In the game of chicken depicted in the first photograph, the second to draw should have been holy.

I envision a scenario where a person retreats to his/her limit and is being threatened by an assailant , The defender pulls his/weapon as a last resort and prepares to fire. The assailant retreats to be no longer a threat.

Of course the original purpose was to carry. But that doesn’t mean there can’t be positive side benefits to having a CHP for all handgun owners in general.

For example, in my state, the larger cities have handgun registration requirements. CHP holders are exempt from all city and state registration requirements. The larger cities require a tougher than NICS background checks done by the police for each handgun purchase. CHP holders only go through an NICS check at initial issue and each renewal. Then you only need to present your CHP and complete the 4473 to purchase a handgun. No NICS check at each purchase. The larger cities have restrictive rules for how handguns and ammo are stored when transporting through the city. Doesn’t apply to CHP holders.

Why wouldn’t a handgun enthusiast, one that had no interest in carrying, not want a CHP to get the benefit of those laws.

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Vegan by proxy.

In that particular situation I don't think that the man has a good way out. He should have never been placed a the position that allowed a mob to stop his car. He got caught in the middle of a bunch of, there are a lot of words to describe them, but most are not acceptable here.

If he tries to drive slowly through the crowd, they will stand in front of his car and dare him to run over them. In many places if he runs over them he will be charged with vehicular assault or homicide.

He didn't initiate the situation, putting it nicely, a bunch of scumbags did and he was probably fearful for his life. If the driver had his gun in a position to aim and fire quickly while the protester was raising his, I think that he should have shot him and got out of there while the crowd was scattering. They don't stand in front of a speeding vehicle.
If I see a crowd like that ahead of me and I can't turn around and get out of there, my gun would be in a position where I could raise it and fire if needed. I might end up dead but I am going to have some company. I am old, I can no longer fight but I can still shoot and will.

When the police can't, by orders from the city hall, or otherwise can't protect us, folks you can talk around it for days but in the end it is going to be up to each individual. The thugs are well funded and organized, we are not.

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Mighty 90's,Trying 4 a 100!

I think the most amazing thing about the present situation is that no one has gone off and decided to do some self help " crowd control".
We may crab sbout ostensibly bad decisions with some brandishing , but there's been no emptying of magazines into a crowd of protesters. Gratia Deo.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

What State?