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Old 07-28-2020, 01:22 PM
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Default Don't use your gun to threaten

I've said it many times and I'll continue; don't use your gun as a threat.

The only time your gun should come out of the holster, except the range and for maintenance or storage at home, is when your life is in danger.

I'm not going to post the video here because it doesn't meet the language standards on this site, but here's a screen shot of a terrible situation:


The man in the truck is feeling threatened by the crowd and he presents his gun in an apparent attempt to get them to leave him alone. The guy in the helmet has responded with a gun of his own. Neither intends to shoot, but both are now in violation of law.

The eternal question: What do you do when they don't follow your demands?

The only answer is to shoot, but it wouldn't be justified. Why? Because your life isn't in danger. If it were, you would have shot right away. Situations like this can only end badly.
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:51 PM
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A lot of questions arise from this snapshot and the explanation given.

If the guy in the truck felt threatened, he should simply drive away. Nobody has overtly threatened him by blocking his path, or trying to drag him out of his truck (lock your doors, man), or throwing bricks through his windshield. He's in a big steel and glass cocoon that moves. So, move it and himself away from the threat. Your description says he pulled the pistol to make the crowd "leave him alone". Were they making threats, or just taunting him? Had the guy in the helmet already drawn his gun, giving the guy in the truck reason to believe he was in mortal danger?

But, he chose to become a threat himself, by opening his door, pulling and pointing a gun, whether he actually intended to shoot it or not. Showing of a weapon solely as intimidation is brandishing; pointing it at someone is assault, pulling the trigger adds 'with intent to kill'. Then comes the murder or manslaughter charge if he actually kills someone, or 'committing serious injury' if he doesn't.

Enter the guy with the helmet on (looks a little like John Lennon). Why he is at a protest and carrying a weapon leads me to think he might have been looking for trouble, as much as being prepared for it. At any rate, He meets what he perceived as a threat to his life with armed force, and might have been justified if he had shot the guy in the truck, depending on the "stand your ground" or "duty or ability to retreat" laws in Oregon. Or, he could have taken cover to protect himself and waited to see if the guy in the truck was serious or not. But he didn't.

Now, it's become a Mexican Standoff, because guy in truck didn't intend to shoot, and guy with helmet didn't immediately answer the threat.

The only thing either of them can legally do now, is put their guns away.

Last question is, who is shooting the video, and are they also armed; and how stupid are they to be that close to a potential gunfight where they could easily become collateral damage?

I'd like to see the unedited video, if you have a link.

Last edited by Hair Trigger; 07-28-2020 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:59 PM
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Lots and lots of folks aren't afraid of someone pointing a gun at them because they know that to shoot will give the shooter legal trouble. Especially thugs (including thuglets and thugettes) know that if they're not armed or violently attacking, you really can't "...do them nothing." Depending on their upbringing and peers, they may well be afraid but be absolutely more afraid to back down.

Sorry to be repetitive - a gun is not a magic wand.

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Old 07-28-2020, 02:05 PM
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Depending on who displayed the weapon first... the other would seemingly be justified to defend themselves. Agree, really stupid to engage in a potentially deadly confrontation that one could have avoided.
Driver could have closed door and left the scene. Pedestrian could possibly have backed away, avoiding the confrontation. Is this staged?
If this went to a gun fight... I would much rather show I tried to avoid deadly force, than that I stood my ground.
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Old 07-28-2020, 02:10 PM
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Mindset and maturity play a big role and unfortunately the ego gets in the way of a lot of people. Don't draw unless you intend to use it.

But we just keep preaching to the choir... because "them hot heads" won't ever listen to experience, knowledge and common sense.
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Old 07-28-2020, 02:19 PM
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My Dad said something 1 time when I was learning to fly 'Be dead right in your actions or you will become dead quick" Applies to Aircraft, Cars, Boats and Firearms.
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Old 07-28-2020, 02:33 PM
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I've seen this pic pop up a few places. Every time, I have the same thought: "why is John Lennon carrying a gun?"
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Old 07-28-2020, 03:06 PM
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I've seen this pic pop up a few places. Every time, I have the same thought: "why is John Lennon carrying a gun?"
Clearly he's "re-imagining". Apparently, it isn't hard to do...

(Nothing to kill or die for...)

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Last edited by blues7; 07-28-2020 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 07-28-2020, 03:21 PM
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Clearly he's "re-imagining". Apparently, it isn't hard to do...

(Nothing to kill or die for...)

He should've just stuck to watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.

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Old 07-28-2020, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hair Trigger View Post
If the guy in the truck felt threatened, he should simply drive away.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Hair Trigger View Post
Nobody has overtly threatened him by blocking his path, or trying to drag him out of his truck (lock your doors, man), or throwing bricks through his windshield. He's in a big steel and glass cocoon that moves. So, move it and himself away from the threat.
In the longer video you can see that he's surrounded by at least 20 people and there's a larger protest going on in the background.

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Originally Posted by Hair Trigger View Post
Your description says he pulled the pistol to make the crowd "leave him alone". Were they making threats, or just taunting him? Had the guy in the helmet already drawn his gun, giving the guy in the truck reason to believe he was in mortal danger?
In the longer video you can hear him telling people to go away and leave him alone. I have no idea when helmet guy pulled his gun.

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Originally Posted by Hair Trigger View Post
...he chose to become a threat himself, by opening his door, pulling and pointing a gun, whether he actually intended to shoot it or not. Showing of a weapon solely as intimidation is brandishing; pointing it at someone is assault, pulling the trigger adds 'with intent to kill'. Then comes the murder or manslaughter charge if he actually kills someone, or 'committing serious injury' if he doesn't.
I completely agree and this is why I posted it. It's a stupid move and will only end badly.

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Last question is, who is shooting the video, and are they also armed; and how stupid are they to be that close to a potential gunfight where they could easily become collateral damage?
There were at least 7 people filming this that you can see in the video. All of them were closer than 2 yards. This is the new normal with everyone capturing video on their phone.

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I'd like to see the unedited video, if you have a link.
As I said, this video violates the language rules of this site. So, no link will be provided. However, you'll notice that I left the title in the image I clipped so, you can put in a tiny bit of your own work and look the video up yourself. There are at least two versions out there.


All that aside, the actual video here is not the crux of this. The point is, don't pull your gun unless you have a need to shoot. All other options end in disaster for all parties.
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Old 07-28-2020, 04:27 PM
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I'm no expert and I sure don't have all the facts but I guarantee you that if a criminal puts a gun in my face, I'm going to put a round in his face and yes, I've got tons of lawyers I trust to keep me out of jail
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Old 07-28-2020, 04:52 PM
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In ‘68 the police academy told us not to use our guns to scare anyone b/c bad guys already knew when we were allowed to shoot. That proved to be true over the next 30 yrs and nothing’s changed since I retired.
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Old 07-28-2020, 04:53 PM
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I said it on another thread, and Mrs and I discussed it at length the other day. The only time I would unholster my pistol in a defense situation is when I intend to pull the trigger. She asked if I would use it to warn someone off. I said no. If I feel the need to pull the gun, I must feel enough of a threat to pull the trigger.
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:16 PM
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And I should add that I pray to God I never find myself in that situation.
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:32 PM
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I've already spoken at length on the matter, so I'm going to be blunt...

At this point in time this seems to be the sort of behavior that's to be expected from the lowest common denominator, the sort of folks who go to pieces under pressure and basically begin acting on pure emotional impulse or animal instinct rather than logic. The sort of people who have most likely spent their entirely lives refusing to take personal responsibility for their actions, believe themselves to be blameless, and most often subscribe to unilateral beliefs that there's no such thing as good and evil, right or wrong, just or unjust, moral or immoral because it enables them to relinquish all responsibility, lay the blame for their actions on something else, and never have to behave like a responsible adult.

Fortunately, I don't believe that most folks here need to be told this, but you don't draw your firearm at all unless a situation has escalated beyond the point of being resolved by words, there's no viable opportunity to safely retreat, and the absolute only way to save yourself is to pull the trigger and drop the threat. PERIOD.
In other words, treat your firearm as a last resort, because that's essentially what it is intended for, and the only circumstance in which you can justify pointing it at someone else.

You know that rule about keeping your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot? Well, in Self-Defense it goes a step further; Keep your fingers off the grip until you're ready to shoot.
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:24 PM
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With all those people recording... guy in truck, announce "I am leaving. Get out of my way!" Put gun down, close door, back up slowly & carefully and drive away. (In tight quarters, I like to use my flashers, backing up.)
Once you put your gun down and announce your intention to leave, HE becomes the AGGRESSOR.
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:56 PM
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If the gun comes, it should only be under circumstances where you’re ready and justified to fire, however, there are numerous possible scenarios where you won’t have and the gun will have been an effective deterrent.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:27 PM
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Shoot the other guys gun out of his hand?
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS Esq. View Post
I've seen this pic pop up a few places. Every time, I have the same thought: "why is John Lennon carrying a gun?"
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
Clearly he's "re-imagining". Apparently, it isn't hard to do...

(Nothing to kill or die for...)

...

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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
He should've just stuck to watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.

Oh c'mon, fellas...

You know it ain't easy. You know how hard it can be.

The way things are going, they're gonna crucify him.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:16 PM
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I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

Dictums like those pronounced here about never drawing without shooting need to be explained as pertaining to some very specific but common personal defense situations.

Preservation of life is goal #1. Any advantage I can give myself I am going to use. Prosecutors and courts are a secondary concern. If I’m dead, they won’t matter.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:21 PM
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I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.
OK, I'll bite, what are those situations? Remember, this is about threatening someone with your gun and making demands that they're supposed to follow.

Ok, go.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
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I must disagree. I can envision a number of scenarios where I would want my gun in my hand but not yet be able to shoot.

Dictums like those pronounced here about never drawing without shooting need to be explained as pertaining to some very specific but common personal defense situations.

Preservation of life is goal #1. Any advantage I can give myself I am going to use. Prosecutors and courts are a secondary concern. If Iím dead, they wonít matter.
I think there's a difference between drawing a gun when deadly force is justified but presenting the gun makes shooting no longer necessary, having a gun in hand as a precautionary measure if its need in the immediate future is anticipated, and using a gun as a means to threaten and compel compliance.

The first situation is certainly a possibility, and should be considered in one's training/practice regimen. The second situation is certainly useful in some scenarios, but may not be appropriate in all. The third situation, which I believe is the focus of this thread, is probably more likely to end in a negative result than anything positive.

Just my opinion.
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