Regardless of how we feel about it, there are laws governing the way we carry. Every state has different laws though many of them are similar.

We've talked about modifications to a carry gun a lot here. However, forget how you feel about it for the moment and think legally. Can anyone provide a reference or link to a law, in any state, that specifically prohibits modifying a carry gun?

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Freedom isn't free.

I am unaware of any, and I try to keep up on that. I know my old agency will not allow you to qualify with a personally weapon on a department range if the gun has been modified in any way other than grips and sights. Assuming the range officers would know, which they probably wouldn't.

Not aware of any laws specifically prohibiting custom modifications, but that doesn't mean they can't be used against you, even in a justified shooting. I posted this in response to you in another thread:

Never heard anything of any such laws.

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213th FBINA

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "Modified", that's a pretty open ended question. Can you carry a Glock that has been modified to shoot full auto?, probably not many places you could do that.

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SWHF #595

It's an unfounded worry in my opinion.

I've never read a codified law that specifically prohibited owner modifications, other than the obvious federal prohibitions regarding barrel length, suppressors and conversions to enable "automatic" fire without the proper paperwork.

I have read of several civil cases that were brought against gun owners which included accusations concerning unsafe modifications and design changes made by them. I think these kinds of civil cases would be more plausible and more common, especially where neglect could be alleged against someone, including the owner of the firearm, who was obviously not trained or qualified, and who was responsible for making a physical change in the design and safety features of the gun....and the action resulted in someone's injury or death.

Results of such a civil action and resulting judgement would only compound the tragedy of the physical loss of life or severe injury that accompanies such actions.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Possibly unrelated, but a Forum member from northern CA (I think) has posted he must name his carry guns with a limit on their number. I can easily see with that kind of official scrutiny that you have to promise the guns are stock and function normally. Perhaps that member will chime in.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Rastoff, I asked my state's U.S. Law Shield program attorney a comparable question. I asked him specifically if I had to use my 686+ with the infernal lock removed for self-defense, would it make either his, or any other program attorney's, ability to defend me difficult. His response was that it wouldn't have any effect on my defense. That, in itself, has given me more reassurance about installing an IL plug!

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Judge control not gun control!

Haven't seen it in my state, but I've heard it described differently than how you've posted (IANAL).

Three types of self-defense shootings...

1) Righteous/Justified. If the SD shooting clearly righteous, it won't matter how you modified the weapon. You're clear. But, you may still have some charges if you aren't a legal possessor.

2) Bad shoot. Doesn't matter what mods you've done. You're screwed.

3) Squishy middle. If it's not a clear cut SD case, even though it's not an illegal modification, an unsympathetic county attorney might hammer the mods as a way to show bad intent.

my 2 cents.

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Vegan by proxy.

This concern cycles through gun folks pretty frequently.

Modified guns only become an issue if the shooter is claiming that the shooting was accidental.

It doesn’t arise in an intentional shooting: which is what the shooter is claiming in a self defense situation.

Of course, if your modifications include a Nazi death head, or engraving a catchy phrase like “kill them all, let God sort it out” or “I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6” on your pistol, a jury might well be skeptical of your self defense story.

In NC you can not use a class 3/ Full auto weapon as CCW, the law was specific because years ago someone got into a shootout with a criminal using a Glock 18... hence the amendment.

I would think that as long as the modifications don't alter the legality of the weapon, you could carry a full race gun on your hip.

Massad Ayoob has a video on this subject that he showed at a firearms law class that I once attended. I think it was his video, anyway.

The bottom line is that a "righteous shoot" is a righteous shoot and nothing "legal" that you can do to your self defense tool changes that.

The major questions that arise, as noted above, MIGHT occur in court, civil or criminal, if you have stupid things engraved on your gun. That could be used to question your attitude, judgment, etc. I think that's far more likely in a civil prosecution but, again, it's more rumor and legend than anything else. No law exists against weapon modifications nor does one exist against stupid engravings.

That said, bear in mind that there is one modification that can accidentally get you into trouble and that's a too light trigger. In the middle of a self defense confrontation, with adrenaline pumping, the odds are you're not thinking "keep finger off trigger until ready to shoot" because you are ready to shoot and your body is in fight mode. BANG! You win.

Or did you?

Because this is where the police and prosecutors are going to ask hard questions. This is where the forensics technician is going to testify that the trigger was so light that .....blah blah yadda blah.

I could go on and on about my dislike of super light triggers for self defense tools (never mind competition toys unless you're a super gun athlete). You're all adults and gun people. Think it through.

The S&W internal lock, magazine disconnectors, etc. have no legal barrier to alteration. Neither do light triggers. Let's be careful out there.....

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Come and take it!!

Exactly my point. Thanks for that!

But is that the gun you want to carry in a lethal confrontation? Maybe yes if you're Brian Enos, Robbie Leatham, Doug Koenig, the late Bob Munden, Jerry Miculek, the late Ed McGivern, or many other champions with their competition toys. Ask yourself if you're that good - if so, then you can justify carrying the race gun.

If not....................................................................?????

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Come and take it!!

Where the issue rears it's ugly head is during court where just about anything can be used to make the defendant look guilty. Prior to the start of trial some issues do get hashed out by the attorneys and the judge. What I've seen happen at court as a Deputy is the lengthy arguments. The attorney you want arguing your case will be the $800 an hour guy! This can really get ugly in a civil case. Especially if an innocent bystander is hit and a safety feature is disabled!

In Law Enforcement it is uncommon for jurisdiction's to allow firearms to be modified except by the department armorer.

Smiles,

If I had to go up against any of these gentleman you mentioned it would be with a rifle at 100 yds +, with a hand gun nope....

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SWHF #595

Anybody with money can have a fully modified race gun.. good ? justify?

Maybe you want to compete in local meets, and can't afford a second gun.. Run whatcha' brung..

As long as legal GTG.

Not a worry! What I would be more concerned about is carrying a very expensive custom gun as I did on duty for many years, get in a shooting and then have it taken away by LE for evidence with the worry of not getting it back for a very long time or not at all. I was involved in a shooting in 2016. LE kept my Stag AR-15 for 8 months until the case was dispos'd. Had he not taken a deal it could have been years. FYI

Hey, if you're that good with it so be it. Just BE THAT GOOD, that's all I'm saying.

I have a cowboy action race gun. If you breathe on that trigger it's going off - that's NOT what I want in a self defense situation.

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Come and take it!!

See, that one I like and totally agree with!!!!

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Come and take it!!

I'm a CCW instructor in CA and I can answer this question. EDIT: Removed incorrect info.

To confuse things more, each "issuing authority" has the ability to say how many guns you can put on your license. In my county it's 10. In others it's 3 because that's the number of lines on the license. In others they let you put as many as you can fit on the back.

Yes, things are crazy here.


Well said. In fact, I'll bet most shootings, even justified ones, land in the squishy middle.




Lawyers are going to bring up absolutely anything to try to convict someone, that's their job. So, yes, you could have a little more explaining to do. Even so, I was just looking for an actual law because someone mentioned to me that it might be illegal to modify a gun. I haven't found that yet and don't think I will.

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Freedom isn't free.

I propose California change the state motto from "Eureka" to "A Good Place To Be From".

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Here is one thing to think about even if there is no law against this or that who wants to spend $500 bucks an hour for your attorney to argue with another attorney to prove that point.
the title of this thread says a lot, don't get your Legal questions answered on the world wide web.

There's a lot of people who can tell you what they think is legal, what they think a lawyer will say and what they think goes on in a trial who barely passed high school, got their legal training watching fantasy TV and have never been inside a courtroom.

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183rd FBINA

No, they can’t . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Have you ever been directly involved in those conferences, especially an actual case where an innocent bystander is hit and a safety feature is disabled . . . ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I recall a published article from a gun writer in SoCal who's 1911 allegedly got rejected as a carry gun for having a trigger under 4 lbs. Accepted after the trigger got reworked. I sort of wondered about that (I do agree with the rejection-if it happened) but wondered if that was some local thing or just hokum. This thread tickled the memory banks.

I do agree that avoiding introducing extra issues into a situation that is already fraught with problems to begin with is both pointless and stupid.

And, allegedly, Ed McGiverns Smiths were stock. Be very interested if there's any evidence one way or the other.

California Penal Code 26175 (i)
Any license issued upon the application shall...contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, and the caliber. The license issued to the licensee may be laminated.

Additionally, BOF 4012 (the application for your permit) specifically lists "Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit" as a prohibited activity.

I stand corrected. I don't know how I missed this except to say that the law is long and convoluted. I will amend my previous post and update my own knowledge base.

If you know of a law limiting the number of guns on the license, please include that. I haven't found one yet, but it could exist.

Yes, I was aware of this one, but this is not law, it's a contract. Specifically, it's not criminal law meaning that violating it won't put you in jail or prison. It is grounds for removing your license though.

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Freedom isn't free.

I dot not know of any law limiting the number. I'm in Kern Co. as well so I am limited to 10. If Ridgecrest PD (also in Kern Co.) processes your permit, they only allow 3.

I personally would not carry a defensive sidearm with any internal modifications.

Jurors recognize the term "Hairtrigger"....... I'm just saying.

.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"