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Old 08-24-2020, 08:40 AM
Deceasedeye Deceasedeye is offline
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Why use a flame thrower to start a fire when a single match will do the job? I read a lot of posts that put down the 38 Special. IMHO a 2" magnum handgun for self defence is OVERKILL squared.
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:57 AM
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I don't "put down" anyone's self-defense choice, but when I carry a revolver, its a 3" 686 with the most effective magnum loads for the job at hand that I can find. If I carried a lighter framed revolver, I might go with 38s.

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Old 08-24-2020, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceasedeye View Post
OVERKILL
Pun intended?

When it comes to defending your live I don't think anything is "OVERKILL".
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:11 AM
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If I carry a revolver I carry a 640-1 with .38Spl +P JHP. Plenty of punch yet controllable. I have carried my Dad's 36-1 with the same load. Some folks like vanilla, other like chocolate, it's their choice.
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:21 AM
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My normal carry is a Ruger LCR .38. For normal everyday carry its perfect, small, light and just disappears in its pocket holster and its +Ps it has should handle anything I might get involved with.

Now in a abnormal situation like going to the city or heading for a more "interesting" area, I will upgrade to a XDs.45 in a IWB.
Note I do my best not to have to go to a city or bad places if at all possible!
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch View Post
Pun intended?

When it comes to defending your live I don't think anything is "OVERKILL".
Since a magnum round up close is capable of decapitating more than just your adversary wouldn't it be OVERKILL if you took out an innocent bystander as well?
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Old 08-24-2020, 10:12 AM
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I generally carry a model 66-2 snub and a model 37 snub in the summer months.The 37 gets loaded with Speer's .38 125 grain +P JHP, as it actually happens to hit to the sights unlike most everything else. The model 66 is stuffed with Speer's 135 grain short barrel magnums, as they're low flash, controllable, and again, shoot to the sights as I have them set. Alternatively I'll shoot Remington's 125 grain +P .38 in the 66. They hit just a tad lower, but they were available in some quantity for a bargain, and I have a good stock of them. I have no real qualms about .38s being underpowered vs a .357 or whatever as long as the bullet penetrates adequately. The .38 special round-nosed lead has filled graveyards full of people over the last century plus, and will continue to do so if employed in the proper fashion.

I'll happily take magnums in a K frame, but a J frame is a bit much, especially an airweight, for me.

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Old 08-24-2020, 10:21 AM
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This reminds me of my motorcycle days.

If you don't like my ride you know what you can do with your opinion.

Insert weapon of choice
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Old 08-24-2020, 10:56 AM
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While I agree that .38 Special is an adequate choice for Self-Defense, I disagree with the notion that a .357 Magnum Snubby is overkill.

Case in point, my mother carries a Taurus 605, a .357 Magnum Snubby, which I personally recommended to her after she asked me to recommend her a pistol that she could carry which was good not just for two-legged threats, but four-legged ones as well after a too-close-for-comfort encounter with a hog she had had one night while she was walking her dogs as well as finding tracks/scat in her yard.

Furthermore, a .357 Magnum Snubby isn't even overkill for humans either. It's not exactly common, but thugs have been shot before with .357s and kept coming. Besides, part of the reason why folks choose to carry .357 Magnum Snubbies is because .357 Magnum has a reputation as a reliable cartridge for stopping a threat in short order.

Seriously, .357 Magnum is a powerful cartridge, but it's a far cry from being overkill. Heck, just about the only things that I would consider "overkill" for ordinary civilian Self-Defense are cartridges specifically designed for hunting African big game or anti-material purposes, as obviously nobody needs a .50 BMG Barrett Rifle for Home Defense.
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Old 08-24-2020, 10:57 AM
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Try practicing with both, double action, rapid fire. If you can keep the groups equally tight, sure, use the .357. If not, 38 spl might be the better choice for self defense with a snubby.
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Old 08-24-2020, 11:01 AM
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The late great Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful round the average man-i.e. most of us-could expect to master and if in armed encounters we could all channel Charlie Askins and Jim Cirillo we'd do OK.
No lightweight frames for me, steel only.
That said, choice of self defense caliber is very personal and IMHO range time and the Combat Mindset are what counts. The fact
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Old 08-24-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceasedeye View Post
Why use a flame thrower to start a fire when a single match will do the job? I read a lot of posts that put down the 38 Special. IMHO a 2" magnum handgun for self defence is OVERKILL squared.
Well sure, if ypu only carry it & never need it. In todays enviro, multiple attackers, semiauto weapons, overkill? Do you live under a rock? The 38sp is the floor. A 5shot snub is the floor. Me, I carry a gun to defend myself against all threats, not just to carry a gun. I bet you never shoot either. Afterall practice would be overkill right?
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Old 08-24-2020, 12:29 PM
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After 50+ years reading , study , experiences of myself and LEO friends and a whole lot of shooting different calibers and different guns ...

In a J-Frame or K-frame S&W ...
I have found the 38 Special suits me to a tee .

I'll join your club !
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Old 08-24-2020, 12:33 PM
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Blanket statements like that may have a grain of truth, but reality is a lot more complex.

For one thing, while .357 Magnum is an effective round, it's not quite the lightning bolt that some people think it is. It's like saying, "They all fall to hardball!" when talking about .45ACP. Reality doesn't always agree.

Also, not all .357 Magnum rounds are "flamethrowers." Plenty of mid-range options.

And not all .357 Magnum "flamethrowers" will "decapitate" someone (actually, none of them will). I used to shoot WWB 110gr SJHP out of a 3" 65. Very nice fireball, visible even in an indoor range. But ballistically, it's on par with 9mm +P, maybe +P+.

Personally, I have no intention of ever shooting full-power .357 Magnum loads out of a 2" barrel. The negatives outweigh any power advantage it may have. .38 Special is just fine with me. But if someone can handle it, who am I to say it's "overkill"? We already have too many people who say, "A 5-shot snub is gonna get you killed!" or "You plan on missing a lot with your 15-shot wondernine?"

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-24-2020, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
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Since a magnum round up close is capable of decapitating more than just your adversary wouldn't it be OVERKILL if you took out an innocent bystander as well?
People need to be aware of their surroundings.

If you're stupid enough to shoot someone with a .357 magnum with someone standing behind them you have no business carrying a gun to begin with.

Its called education, training and responsibility.
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Old 08-24-2020, 01:26 PM
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There are a lot of serious considerations mentioned here but to me the most important when the chips are down are bullet placement and the mindset to actually pull the trigger.
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Old 08-24-2020, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Blanket statements like that may have a grain of truth, but reality is a lot more complex.

For one thing, while .357 Magnum is an effective round, it's not quite the lightning bolt that some people think it is. It's like saying, "They all fall to hardball!" when talking about .45ACP. Reality doesn't always agree.

Also, not all .357 Magnum rounds are "flamethrowers." Plenty of mid-range options.

And not all .357 Magnum "flamethrowers" will "decapitate" someone (actually, none of them will). I used to shoot WWB 110gr SJHP out of a 3" 65. Very nice fireball, visible even in an indoor range. But ballistically, it's on par with 9mm +P, maybe +P+.

Personally, I have no intention of ever shooting full-power .357 Magnum loads out of a 2" barrel. The negatives outweigh any power advantage it may have. .38 Special is just fine with me. But if someone can handle it, who am I to say it's "overkill"? We already have too many people who say, "A 5-shot snub is gonna get you killed!" or "You plan on missing a lot with your 15-shot wondernine?"

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-24-2020, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch View Post
People need to be aware of their surroundings.

If you're stupid enough to shoot someone with a .357 magnum with someone standing behind them you have no business carrying a gun to begin with.

Its called education, training and responsibility.
If someone needs to be shot and it's up to you, not later but now in a split second and the 357 is what you have I guess you throw it at them. I am an old man now, I started shooting at 12, I have shot competively, so I know about education, training and responsibility, I also know about the heat of the moment. Even the best of us is not perfect!
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Old 08-24-2020, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiranch View Post
People need to be aware of their surroundings.

If you're stupid enough to shoot someone with a .357 magnum with someone standing behind them you have no business carrying a gun to begin with.

Its called education, training and responsibility.
As I said, the real world is complex, and there may be no good option, with the least bad option being to shoot the attacker, knowing there may be people behind him. Or stress-induced tunnel vision may set in and all you see is the threat and not bystanders. Sometimes, the fit hits the shan, and you have to do the best you can with what you got.
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Old 08-24-2020, 03:00 PM
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Over penetration is a result of bullet choice, not caliber. If you feel 38 is adequate for you then so be it. But to try and tell anyone who doesn't agree with that theory that they are wrong and are somehow recklessly endangering everyone around them by caring a more powerful caliber smacks of arrogance. Carry what you want and don't question anyone else's choice. Just because you think something doesn't mean you're right...
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Old 08-24-2020, 03:22 PM
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Nowadays the biggest guns I go with are a 38-3 J frame with +P Gold Dots, or my P365, again, with +P Gold Dots.

I see no personal use for a magnum other than hunting and making fireballs at the range (I grew out of that phase), so carry no magnum capable firearm.
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Old 08-24-2020, 03:50 PM
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Several years ago, I used to go packing up in the wilderness areas with a grizzled old cowboy who was crippled up in one leg. We both had pack strings and found that we got along pretty good together. He always packed an old Smith and Wesson .38 with stag grips. Anyway, one particular outing, we were having a similar discussion about handgun calibers. His reply to my opinion on various cartridges was, "Tell me...just how much deader than dead can you kill somethin'?"

After thinking it over, I figure the ol' boy made pretty good sense.
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Old 08-24-2020, 04:18 PM
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342 with Underwood 125 grn +p bonded hollowpoints.
Works for me!
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Old 08-24-2020, 04:32 PM
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Since my hands are registered as lethal weapons, any firearm is overkill for me.

Actually yes a match will start a fire, but what if the wood is wet? That flamethrower might come in handy. I’m fine with a 38 special, but I don’t believe there’s such a thing as too much muzzle energy or too much capacity so long as the shooter can handle it.
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Old 08-24-2020, 04:40 PM
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...... Iím fine with a 38 special, but I donít believe thereís such a thing as too much muzzle energy or too much capacity so long as the shooter can handle it.
Well heck, I'm pretty handy with my 460V, but it prints pretty bad when stuffed in the front pocket of my Bermuda shorts.
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Old 08-24-2020, 06:44 PM
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Over penetration is a result of bullet choice, not caliber. If you feel 38 is adequate for you then so be it. But to try and tell anyone who doesn't agree with that theory that they are wrong and are somehow recklessly endangering everyone around them by caring a more powerful caliber smacks of arrogance. Carry what you want and don't question anyone else's choice. Just because you think something doesn't mean you're right...
The only post I've seen calling people stupid and smacking of arrogance is from a magnum advocate. A hypothetical situation was cited but I haven't read (recklessly endangering everyone around them) in any other post but yours.
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Old 08-24-2020, 07:04 PM
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Why use a flame thrower to start a fire when a single match will do the job? I read a lot of posts that put down the 38 Special. IMHO a 2" magnum handgun for self defence is OVERKILL squared.
I generally carry a SIG 323 in .380. I think it's enough. But part of me wants to carry a Desert Eagle in 50AE.
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Old 08-24-2020, 07:19 PM
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Wow.. Overkill? ... Decapitation? .. Where are you guys getting this super Uber 357 Magnum Thunder God ammo? Are they Thor's own handloads?
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Old 08-24-2020, 07:39 PM
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If a whole herd of people are coming at you having bullets that will go plumb through would be as asset. You could get twofers and maybe some threefers. Larry
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:16 PM
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Carry the biggest gun you can/will carry...load it with the most powerful round you can control...that combo is gonna be different for everyone...
I carry a snub with .38's most days...ain't gonna tell anyone else what to do, I might be wrong
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:43 PM
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Huh. A caliber war thread with a twist. Whodathunkit.
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:53 PM
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A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:06 PM
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Iíd like to read about this firefight. Got a link or enough info I can search for it . . . ?

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A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:16 PM
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And I can't understand why any man would want to marry a blonde or a redhead when God is still making brunettes. It's overkill.
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:46 PM
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Why use a flame thrower to start a fire when a single match will do the job? I read a lot of posts that put down the 38 Special. IMHO a 2" magnum handgun for self defence is OVERKILL squared.
To quote a SEAL buddy of mine, there's no such thing as overkill, there's just dead.
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:11 AM
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A local department switched to 40 Glocks years back. On a cold winter day they had a threat coming at them wearing 2 sweaters and a heavy leather jacket over it. Many many 9mm could not stop the threat. 38 even less so. I load lots of 38 spl target rounds and love shooting them but for defense they are not a consideration. 38 and 9s are useful if nothing else is available in that situation. I also load a lot of 44 spl target loads with lead SWCs and now thats another story.
News flash, in that scenario, I doubt the 44 would have done any better. Its always shot placement. I would bet most hits were non vitals or the guy was on drugs. His clothing choice was irrelevant.
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:13 AM
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And I can't understand why any man would want to marry a blonde or a redhead when God is still making brunettes. It's overkill.
Red heads really are overkill. Why There are so few good looking ones.
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:17 AM
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If someone needs to be shot and it's up to you, not later but now in a split second and the 357 is what you have I guess you throw it at them. I am an old man now, I started shooting at 12, I have shot competively, so I know about education, training and responsibility, I also know about the heat of the moment. Even the best of us is not perfect!
If you carried a .22 and missed you could kill the person standing next to your target.
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:37 AM
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I must resist the temptation to post anything in this thread.
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Old 08-25-2020, 01:53 AM
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A .38 may command respect, but there is NOTHING like seeing the blue eyed devil that is the igniter on a flame thrower to get you closer to your preferred god...

From one of our shoots
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:01 AM
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Since a magnum round up close is capable of decapitating more than just your adversary wouldn't it be OVERKILL if you took out an innocent bystander as well?
No,.... it will not. I am assuming your being sarcastic friend. Nothing whatsoever wrong or overpowered using a " Magnum ", weapon with appropriate projectiles. Never heard a fella or Gal complain about the effectiveness of a cartridge if involved in a bout of unpleasantness.
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Old 08-25-2020, 08:53 AM
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Funny, you hear the Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan stories about the development of the 357 and one of the reasons was to bust an engine block in order to stop a car and yet it's perfect for an encounter with a human being just a few feet away. Nobody is advocating anything here or suggesting any kind of ban or restrictions, just a logical look at the situation. I feel sure that if it was legal to own a machine gun for home defence that many would ( I know it is legal under certain circumstances so don't use that).
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Old 08-25-2020, 08:59 AM
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Maybe you should stop believing myths.
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:22 AM
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With all of the "nonsense" going on around us, I'm considering to move my EDC from J-frames (currently Model 60-15 loaded with Winchester PDX1, 130gr, .38Spl +P) to my Kimber Ultra Carry loaded with 230gr .45ACP Federal Hydra-Shocks.

This allows me to go from 5 rounds to 7+1 for about the same carry weight. Both typically carried IWB in Milt Sparks VMII's.

I gotta tell ya that while I tend to avoid the big cities, these recent "peaceful demonstrations" have got me a bit rattled; especially as some of these are moving to the suburbs.

I'm planning a road trip from OH to CT in the next couple of weeks and, for the first time in a long time, am concerned about carrying enough firepower.

Very sad state of current affairs.....................

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Old 08-25-2020, 09:36 AM
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Wow.. Overkill? ... Decapitation? .. Where are you guys getting this super Uber 357 Magnum Thunder God ammo? Are they Thor's own handloads?
What, you've never heard of Hirtenberger Buscadero Ticondas?
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:44 AM
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A .38 may command respect, but there is NOTHING like seeing the blue eyed devil that is the igniter on a flame thrower to get you closer to your preferred god...

From one of our shoots
Looks like 10mm, except the hills behind aren't crumbling.
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:52 AM
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Info from Ballistics by the inch
Bond Texas Defender
3" barrel 1246 fps 357 mag fed 125gr 430 FPE
Bond Texas Defender
3" barrel 885 fps CCI Speer Gold Dot 135 gr 234 FPE
261 fps faster for 357 VS 38+p = 430 fpe VS 234 fpe
I do not worship at the tree of Velocity or paper FPE's, but if given a choice of ~200 fpe more out of a handgun, I would go with increased energy. I realize Bullet function, location, combatant's mental, physical size, and alcohol and/or drugs would be contributing factors in overall results. Consider the Eaton Co. Deputy Mi who was attacked by a male with a knife+, she made 8 hits with 9mm duty ammunition, and still ended up close enough to be struck in the hand by attacker's stick. Bodycam Shows Armed Suspect Running at Michigan Deputy Before Being Shot - YouTube Be Safe,
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Old 08-25-2020, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Maybe you should stop believing myths.
MYTH? The 357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so. Nearly any current . 357 round will knock a hole in a modern car engine block.May 10, 2010
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:13 PM
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Two suggestions.
1. If you think .357 Magnums are overkill then don't use them.
2. Don't stand behind somebody that is about to be shot by a gun loaded with .357 Magnums.
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Old 08-25-2020, 01:02 PM
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MYTH? The 357 bullet that was designed to bust engine blocks: That round was manufactured until about 1960 or so. Nearly any current . 357 round will knock a hole in a modern car engine block.May 10, 2010
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Yes, but they aren't making engine blocks the way they used to back in the day. Also, the flimsy sheet metal and plastic around the engine are a little less substantial than the older cars.
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