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09-04-2020, 10:35 AM
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A post-shooting seizure question
Hello All!
In the next few weeks I plan on traveling to a distant match, and carrying en route where my permit is recognized. My intention is to consciously avoid known "hot" spots, but it seems that virtually any area can become a "hot" spot in the blink of an eye. In many respects, this question is more directed towards LEOs and attorneys that have been involved in (either the arrest, investigation, or defense phases of) a self-defense shooting.
Scenario: a person is traveling to a specific destination (in this case a match) and is carrying their EDC, and transporting an additional (target) arm. The individual is ultimately forced to use their EDC to defend themselves. When they are either detained or arrested/released on bail, I realize that the arm that is used for defense will be retained as evidence, but will the additional arm intended for use in a match also be held as evidence or would it be released to the owner?
My follow-up questions are:
1). if any degree of social media can be trusted, how is a traveler that was forced to defend themselves and is released expected to continue to be able to defend themselves? This, in light of the claims that a contract has been placed on Kyle Rittenhouse once he is located in a correctional facility?
2) if a person is forced to defend themselves, while the incident is being investigated, are any arms that they may have at home also seized, or an order shared with the defender's home state seeking seizure of the other arms that they may possess?
Thanks in advance for your help!
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09-04-2020, 11:44 AM
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It’s my understanding that only the weapon actually used. The reason of course is evidence and something that wasn’t used will hold no pertinent evidence.
There could be aggravating circumstances that would require confiscation of all weapons but normally, I would think not.
Red Flag laws notwithstanding.
I am not a lawyer and this is just my understanding of it.
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09-04-2020, 01:29 PM
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My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.
I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)...
My bad.
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09-04-2020, 01:40 PM
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There are no guarantees that the weapon not used in the sd shooting will not be held as well as the gun used in the shooting.
Being in a state that’s not your residence could influence local law enforcement to retain all weapons in your possession.
As far as your ability to defend yourself after the guns are held, don’t imagine that this is an argument that will impress either the local LEOs or a judge.
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09-04-2020, 01:43 PM
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I was a cop for 30 yrs and in the situation you outline only the gun used in the SD shooting would be held as evidence. The authorities would not have the legal authority to seize your other guns unless that jurisdiction was a gun free zone.
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09-04-2020, 02:03 PM
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Not a lawyer, but -
If you're actually arrested, I'd think any firearm in your possession at the time would be seized until things are resolved.
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09-04-2020, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon651
My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.
I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)...
My bad.
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THAT was my first thought as well.
Then I thought, nahhh, he's talking weapons seizure.
If you are involved in a self defense shooting and the police believe it was self defense from the get go then they'll likely leave your other possessions alone. They shouldn't even be the subject of a conversation. But if you get arrested first then, yes, they'll seize your vehicle and other possessions, inventory them, and if you get released/no billed/whatever the state calls it then it is standard practice for them to return everything if no other laws have been broken.
Your other questions are very different.
If you are arrested, detained, or otherwise become a public figure because of a riot then when you are released you need to be aware of your surroundings at all times and maybe forever because these terrorists are insane. If you're locked up then defending yourself is a wholly different proposition. Ask Jeffrey Epstein. However, in a normal, run of the mill, self defense situation, you won't make news and won't be famous and nobody will know who you are so you can proceed accordingly.
If you're in a foreign state then your home is outside the jurisdiction of the local constabulary and prosecutors. Should you be convicted of a felony then your home is subject to all kinds of governmental intrusion but you have to be a convicted felon first.
If your use of a firearm is away from your home it is unlikely that the gendarmerie will have any interest in your home. If you get into a gunfight at home it's hard to say what the investigators will be interested in.
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09-04-2020, 03:04 PM
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a post-shooting seizure question
If the law in New Jersey still stands, many years ago, a friend of mine, in New Jersey, was arrested because his wife called the police and that she was threatened, by her husband. using a shotgun. The Police confiscated all of his guns until the court hearing and the case was dismissed since his wife made the complaint to remove him from the house. Her testimony and her neighbor fabricated the incident and was disclosed while in the court room. The judge adjudicated the husband and she was told to never set foot in his courtroom fabricating a weapons charge on an incent person. His weapons were returned to him by the Police department
Nick
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09-04-2020, 03:20 PM
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@ irrifleman.
I think that in the scenario you presented attending the match will be the least of your problems.
As for the legal questions you ask. I really have no ideia.
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09-04-2020, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg
As far as your ability to defend yourself after the guns are held, don’t imagine that this is an argument that will impress either the local LEOs or a judge.
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It sure should be in my opinion
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09-04-2020, 05:07 PM
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[QUOTE=hobby-gunsmith;140890804]If the law in New Jersey still stands, many years ago, a friend of mine, in New Jersey, was arrested because his wife called the police and that she was threatened, by her husband. using a shotgun. The Police confiscated all of his guns until the court hearing and the case was dismissed since his wife made the complaint to remove him from the house. Her testimony and her neighbor fabricated the incident and was disclosed while in the court room. The judge adjudicated the husband and she was told to never set foot in his courtroom fabricating a weapons charge on an incent person. His weapons were returned to him by the Police department
Nick[/QUOTE
The fact that she wasn’t charged is just wrong
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Last edited by Jessie; 09-04-2020 at 05:08 PM.
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09-04-2020, 05:12 PM
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@ Nick,
Unfortunately, I am pretty well versed in NJ gun laws. My concern is centered primarily while I am traveling with a recognized non-resident permit. I want to ensure my ability to protect myself should I have had to use lethal force to protect myself. Sadly, I see today's "peaceful protesters" being too well organized and having a network in place to strike out at anyone that impedes their objectives.
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09-04-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
2. A shoot is either righteous or it ain't. If it's righteous,
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That's completely correct. But while the police and prosecutors are making that determination your firearm could be in their custody and if it happens in your home it could be more than 1 firearm.
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09-04-2020, 09:09 PM
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At this point in time, I just wouldn't go anywhere you suspect unrest will be taking place - even if it's not currently a hot spot. It's just not worth it.
Last edited by ZGrand; 09-04-2020 at 09:12 PM.
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09-05-2020, 06:09 AM
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Some states may be different, ie if they have so called safekeeping laws which may allow them to hold your weapons for a short time if they deem you dangerous. This was often done during threats of family violence. It is done less often now it seems as the 2A rights, at least here, have successfully countered the practice. That being said only the one used should be taken as evidence until the courts are done, then it should be returned. They should have no reason or right to take the others unless you are arrested and there is no one to release them to at the time.
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09-05-2020, 07:51 AM
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If you are involved in any kind of shooting your not going anywhere with any gun until they sort it out to some extent and if there are any doubts at all you may well have to make an appearance and bail before you can proceed. Depending on the who, what, when and where you may or may not proceed with another gun. The chances that your going to be on your way with in time to make your match are slim.
I would bet that right now, a shooting that may involve some of the chaos that is happening is going to get extra eye balling, if only for political reasons. Is he a vigilante? etc etc etc
Going to your match is going to be way down on your list at that point.
Last edited by steelslaver; 09-05-2020 at 07:58 AM.
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09-05-2020, 08:04 AM
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I can guarantee if this happens in NY, all of your guns will be seized. You may have a glimmer of hope in rural NYS, not anywhere near NYC.
Probably in NJ, MD, MA and CT as well, amongst some others.
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Last edited by ladder13; 09-05-2020 at 08:16 AM.
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09-05-2020, 11:36 AM
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Unless it's a crystal clear case of self defense or defense of others with numerous witnesses on the spot saying you saved everyone's life by shooting that mad man before he could kill others, the odds are really high you'll be arrested. If or morel likely when that happens, expect to spend *at least* a few hours in jail before you have an initial appearance and make bail, even on a shoot that is a legitimate use of lethal force justified as self defense or defense of others in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
Even in a clean shoot, if you are arrested, the odds are high you'll still have $5K to $10K in legal bills before it's done and over with, even if you are ultimately cleared of any wrongdoing.
What an arrest means in terms of the other weapons in the vehicle is that they will be discovered during an inventory search after your vehicle is towed. As part of that inventory search they will be impounded just like your car. Unlike your car, they may end up with an inventory number in many jurisdictions. (Hopefully you didn't have something collectible like a minty Colt Python in the car if that happens. If you are lucky the person doing the inventory might be considerate and put the inventory number under a grip rather than on a frame, cylinder or barrel in a classy electro-pencilled scrawl.
In the event you are charged, even if released on bail you won't be getting any of them back until the charges are dropped or you are adjudicated "not guilty". (You will never be considered "innocent" again.)
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I also disagree with the commenters above who suggest other weapons in the car will not be seized. If there is any suspicion at all that the shoot is anything other than exactly what it appears, the presence of other guns in the vehicle might be viewed as "evidence" of your state of mind and criminal intent. Consider for a minute the average mass shooter who shows up with multiple weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammo. You know, just like you'd take to a typical three gun match.
In addition, most LEOs are not gun people and many of them won't be aware of three gun matches and/or would not understand why you might in interested in attending one or view that explanation or while you are a rolling armory with anything other than a healthy degree of suspicion.
In fact, having multiple guns and lots of ammo in the vehicle may be enough to convince the officer to just arrest you anyway and let the state's attorney make the call, even if the officer thinks it's a good shoot. I don't know many LEOs who want to end their career by NOT arresting a shooter who goes on to shoot more people after being questioned and released.
I've seen numerous officers over the years who got excited when an armed citizens had a spare magazine or heaven forbid TWO spare magazines and then start asking who the now "suspect" planned to shoot with all that ammo. (Never mind the excited officer also has two spare mags on his duty belt and doesn't "plan" to shoot anyone on any given day.)
----
In short, don't shoot anyone on your way to a match.
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09-06-2020, 12:12 PM
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There are too many variables to answer this definitively.
Was the shoot justified?
Are you far from home?
Do you have anyone else that can come get your car/property?
These questions, and others I can't think of at the moment, all need to be answered. If you're far from home and are arrested and no one can come get your car for you, it will be impounded along with everything in it.
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09-06-2020, 12:26 PM
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I doubt that you will get either gun back until the investigation is complete. There is always a question of competency relative to your actions. As long as that question is up in the air, and the investigation is ongoing nobody is going to give you a gun. Just my .02
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09-06-2020, 12:50 PM
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It's good to ask these questions. Trouble can happen in the wink of an eye.
I barely made it through highway 270 outside of St. Louis in the middle of the day as a mob came down the embankment to occupy the roadway. This happened during the Michael Brown fiasco a couple years back.
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09-06-2020, 12:58 PM
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I only recommend that you store your competition firearm in its case, in the trunk of your vehicle. Of course, I assume you keep the target weapon unloaded.
The more you can do to make it obvious, it was not involved, the better.
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09-06-2020, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGrand
At this point in time, I just wouldn't go anywhere you suspect unrest will be taking place - even if it's not currently a hot spot. It's just not worth it.
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I thnk the point is any street could become a place of civil unrest or riot. We all know where the major points are to avoid. The issue is what happens if you just turn down the wrong street into a large protest.
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10-18-2020, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon651
My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.
I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)...
My bad.
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I thought the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop
I was a cop for 30 yrs and in the situation you outline only the gun used in the SD shooting would be held as evidence. The authorities would not have the legal authority to seize your other guns unless that jurisdiction was a gun free zone.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 199
Not a lawyer, but -
If you're actually arrested, I'd think any firearm in your possession at the time would be seized until things are resolved.
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I was a cop in MA for 17 years and my expertise is Mass gun laws. In MA, all guns get confiscated. And in most cases you will be charged and held (no bail) for a "dangerousness hearing" a week or two (maybe longer due to CV-19) later.
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10-19-2020, 12:07 AM
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Since you are on the wrong side of the Mason-Dixon Line, I believe all weapons would be seized from your person and vehicle. My best guess is that you would play hell to get any of them back, lawyers and $$$$$ will be needed.
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10-19-2020, 04:06 PM
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What's really stupid is that the firearm is not evidence, and other than a 2 hour exam to confirm it is in proper operating condition, should not be seized. It's pure simple ER 401 stuff.
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10-19-2020, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon651
My answer here is off topic, so I am asking forgiveness beforehand.
I saw the title of this thread "A post-shooting seizure question" and actually thought you were asking about a person who had a seizure after they had been shooting (like at a range)...
My bad.
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Me too, lol!
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10-19-2020, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobby-gunsmith
If the law in New Jersey still stands, many years ago, a friend of mine, in New Jersey, was arrested because his wife called the police and that she was threatened, by her husband. using a shotgun. The Police confiscated all of his guns until the court hearing and the case was dismissed since his wife made the complaint to remove him from the house. Her testimony and her neighbor fabricated the incident and was disclosed while in the court room. The judge adjudicated the husband and she was told to never set foot in his courtroom fabricating a weapons charge on an incent person. His weapons were returned to him by the Police department
Nick
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I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen twice.
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10-19-2020, 06:04 PM
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I have a possible suggestion for one item. Have your FFL/LGS ship your competition firearm to a FFL/LGS in the competition city then do the same in reverse to your home city.
If you are in transit and end up trapped on the freeway due to a riot it may be better to "Do in Rome as the Romans do". You won't have enough ammunition to shoot your way out and there will be hundreds of "eye witnesses" vowing under oath about the "maniacal gunman".
But... Several years back during the Rodney King riots in LA a trapped truck driver was pulled from his rig and severely beaten including a concrete block to his head as he lay on the road.
Not a good situation at all.
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10-20-2020, 06:40 AM
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Depends on jurisdiction, local laws, agency policy, state guidelines, the situtation in the actual event that took place, etc....
Buddy of mine in unincorporated Miami Dade County got into a self defense shooting. He was stuffed and cuffed into the back seat of a green and white for a few hours as MDPD figured out what the hell was going on. Eventually they cut him loose and preliminarily ruled it a good shoot. They impounded his gun as evidence.
It sat in state custody for two and a half years as the trial against his attacker moved through the court system.
I've personally never seen a agency not impound a gun as evidence in a shooting in my entire career as law enforcement.
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10-20-2020, 11:52 AM
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We're on the same page..
All the circumstances in the OP can vary by state and politics in the jurisdiction. Yes, it matters!
All firearms will be seized in most jurisdictions!
How they are returned depends on charges. A good shoot may require the services of an $800 an hour attorney to get the comp guns returned in a timely manner. (Politics again!)
If charged with a felony good luck with that $800 an hour attorney and your home state firearms and getting any guns returned!
This thread can go on for days as the scenario gets tweaked!
Footnote: I don't recall any firearms used in a felony that were returned to anyone at the very large department I worked for!
Firearms that were seized and not involved in felonies were returned when the owner could be verified! Be sure to have documentation that proves ownership! Billy-Bob could not pick up cousin Phil's Raven 380!
All firearms were run through the stolen property data base for verification. I recall researching a serial number that showed up as stolen property but turned out the stolen property wasn't entered properly (40 foot flatbed trailer!)!
Any firearm with an altered serial number was destroyed. Firearms that were not claimed within a certain period of time were also destroyed! Few departments are "auctioning" firearms anymore.
All the best,
Last edited by jjfitch; 10-20-2020 at 12:02 PM.
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10-20-2020, 01:04 PM
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It's good to be reasonably prepared but not to obsess over something that is far, far less likely to happen than being struck by a car while crossing a street. Virtually no sane person puts much thought into the potential hazards of crossing a street. Instead, they exercise reasonable care when they step into the street.
The well meaning and others can go on lengthy, needless diatribes about gun seizures, self defense, bad neighborhoods, etc., but every situation is different and laws (as well as customary practices) vary from one jurisdiction to another. Maybe it's best to relax and enjoy life as it is.
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10-21-2020, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
But... Several years back during the Rodney King riots in LA a trapped truck driver was pulled from his rig and severely beaten including a concrete block to his head as he lay on the road.
Not a good situation at all.
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*
Darned near 30 years ago now. Several lessons there, by the way: vehicle doors should never be unlocked except to pass through them, and frankly, with darned few exceptions this is true of all doors. Any trucking company that does not have that as a rigid policy is stupid, for many reasons.
When I drove OTR, I had someone in a real sketchy area act like they were going to step in front of me. The first thought I had was of Reginald Denny and the brick (wielded by a banger whose street name is now "Little Football" - last I knew he lives in Spokane). It was not going to happen to me. 3 upshifts and the related smoke and he moved. I had the right of weigh. A car is not that big, but beats hell out of a firearm in the force delivered.
You also need to know your path, and avoid anything even close to unknown, let alone sketchy. If you don't absolutely know it is a low risk area, it is high risk. This is especially true with the riots in some cities. If you turn a corner and see something bad, smoke your tires getting out of there with every bit of alacrity of which you are capable. Turn around if you can, back away if you have to.
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11-02-2020, 07:42 PM
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Location: New Mexico & Arizona
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I know this is an old thread but AZ has an awesome Castle Doctrine. LE needs to be able able to show it was not self defense for you to be charged or any weapon seized. We also have as part of the CD, a Right to Stand Your Ground anywhere you have a legal right to be. They may take your gun temporarily to photograph and record serial numbers but unless charged, you are presumed innocent and your gun will be returned at the scene. At least this is the way it should happen as most AZ LEOs are very pro 2nd Amendment.
Last when you run a serial number you will often get a hit on the number but you need to look at what the serial number relates to. I once ran a revolver and got 2 hits none for a gun( electric drill & a TV).
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11-02-2020, 08:24 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57
What an arrest means in terms of the other weapons in the vehicle is that they will be discovered during an inventory search after your vehicle is towed. As part of that inventory search they will be impounded just like your car.
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Not intending this to be construed as nitpicking, but there is no such thing as an inventory search. It's either an inventory, which is an administrative procedure as dictated by agency policy, or it's a search, which is covered under the 4th Amendment. It's one or the other, but not both.
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11-02-2020, 09:41 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NM home; Tbilisi work
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Not shooting people saves lots of time and money.
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11-03-2020, 05:54 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
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The bad guy gets a vote in that.
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