Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-05-2020, 12:05 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Lightbulb LEOSA Explained in Detail



The Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act, otherwise commonly known as HR218 due to the original legislative bill number is a Federal Law that grants qualified individuals the legal abulity to carry nationwide in all fifty states and territories. It seems simple enough and many think it is a national CCW permit. But the honest truth is it isn't.

LEOSA does have its caveats. It isn't universal in its rules.

1. You aren't exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act nor are you exempt from State Prohibition due to Location or Private Property Laws. If Minnesota for example allows the "no concealed carry signs" to carry the weight of law. Then you're barred from carrying at the Mall of America if they have such a sign. Since Florida bars carry in polling places. You can't carry there when you go vote. Same goes with bans on carrying in places like bars, government buildings, post offices, etc.

State issued CCW permits (or Constitutional Carry States) usually grant greater privileges for carrying than LEOSA does.

2. The law says who qualifies. But the reality it is much murkier. Each State defines who is and isn't law enforcement. LEOSA in a nut shell says you qualify if you have arrest powers and can carry a gun on and off duty. New Mexico for instance doesn't allow Reserve Police Officers to carry off duty or have arrest powers off duty. So they don't qualify and that was an issue with Lake Arthur, NM and the pay to play badge scheme.

In Florida, Correctional Officers recently became qualified by statute since they weren't considered law enforcement. But that has recently changed when Gov. DeSantis signed a bill into law. In Washington DC, Correctional Officers weren't qualified until they sued the government and won. Federal Law Enforcement Agencies under the Executive Branch also weren't originally qualified nor were Military Police. But that changed with legislation.

In the end, each State and Territory governs who is and isn't qualified.

3. It isn't automatic. Right now, you must be either actively sworn or if separated from an agency you have to either have an aggregate of 10 years or more and have separated from the agency in "good standing". If under 10 years then you have to have been medically retired and it had to have been after your training period.

There is no definition on what a separation with "good standing" is.

This segways into the next part.

4. Issuance of LEOSA Credentials isn't automatic and not required by anyone. The Federal 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Camille Burban v. The City of Neptune Beach that there was no private cause of action under LEOSA that would entitle a former officer to relief after his/her application for an identification card was denied.

Basically, it is up to each agency to issue LEOSA Credentials to who they seem fit and they csn develop their own internal policy. If an agency doesn't want to issue anyone LEOSA Credentials they can do that. If they want to stipulate that an officer must do 30 years with the department to qualify for LEOSA Credentials they can do that.

5. States can set additional requirements. New Jersey makes their separated officers get a RPO permit and limit it to people under the age of 75. Illinois requires that separated officers there get a FOID card.

8. Qualified Separated Officers have to qualify annually. Each state is allowed to set up those requirements. No agency is required to put separated officers through a qualification course.

9. LEOSA is an administrative defense. It doesn't prevent any jurisdiction from arresting someone (as NYS and NYC has done in the past).

10. LEOSA is not permanent. You can be actively sworn and for reasons outside of your control. You can be placed on administrative leave due to a bogus complaint filed against you. While on administrative leave, you might be stripped of your authorization to carry off duty under the badge.

So with all that out there. If you qualify and actually have LEOSA Credentials and happen to live in a place where you can get a CCW Permit.



Do it and get one. Don't just rely on LEOSA.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-05-2020, 12:41 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

Nice summary. Federal agencies are notorious for not making it easy to get a LEOSA ID...but thankfully most of us kept our retired, (or even cancelled) credentials. And they do not qualify their former sworn agents.

And like you, I have been doing the belt and suspenders routine for years. LEOSA and a state license. (And legal representation plans through FLEOA membership, as well as CCW Safe...fwiw.)
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-05-2020, 12:53 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
Nice summary. Federal agencies are notorious for not making it easy to get a LEOSA ID...but thankfully most of us kept our retired, (or even cancelled) credentials. And they do not qualify their former sworn agents.

And like you, I have been doing the belt and suspenders routine for years. LEOSA and a state license. (And legal representation plans through FLEOA membership, as well as CCW Safe...fwiw.)
I have the "canceled" creds from my former agencies. Every department I worked for gave me a set of creds where they perforated "VOID" on them. When My Father the first go around, he carried under LEOSA with an ancient set of creds from the early 1980s that were perforated "VOID". He had no problem qualifying and getting a FL CJSTC instructor to sign off. But since then, he actually has been issued a set of "RETIRED" creds.

Since I'm pretty much hanging up the badge as a career. I'm glad I was actually able to get a legit LEOSA card.

I have heard that the Feds make it a huge pain in the butt. I was looking at going to USBP about six months ago when I was debating what I was ultimately going to do if I was going to stay in LE and go Federal or if I was going to hang it up altogether. But in the end I went with the other choice and hung up the badge. But if I went with USBP, I was still going to request a LEOSA card from my last agency anyways just in case since I heard nothing but horror stories from the Feds.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 09-05-2020, 01:20 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

I worked in Miami for 17 years, and retired there before moving to NC. Worked in NYC before that.

I have a set of "canceled" creds, and a set of "retired" creds. They gave us the option of requesting the creds when we turned them in. I can't remember if they charged for that, or only for the badge in Lucite.

I haven't even bothered to initiate the process for any LEOSA ID after reading their previous guidelines set of hoops to jump through.

Thankfully, NC has been a pleasure to deal with. I go to qualify with the sheriff's office, send in my notarized paperwork, (and money order), and get back a card from the state DOJ affirming my qualification under the standards for NC LEOs. (Day and simulated night qualification required for each firearm listed.)

The sheriff's office charges nothing for the qual, nor the notarization. Only the DOJ gets their pound of flesh for keeping records and sending out the card annually.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Last edited by blues7; 09-05-2020 at 01:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 09-05-2020, 02:42 PM
sigp220.45's Avatar
sigp220.45 sigp220.45 is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 18,605
Liked 19,952 Times in 3,220 Posts
Default

When I retired from the FBI I got a set of retired creds and another card saying I had separated in good standing as a Special Agent of the FBI.

Once a year I go shoot 20 rounds at the Sheriff’s Office and get a new retired peace officer’s certification card.

I can carry in all 50 states and the territories. If I ever go to New York or New Jersey I’ll carry there.

If Colorado had a CCW that got me out of background checks I’d get one, but it doesn’t so I don’t.

LEOSA has been going strong for a long time. Its all I need.
__________________
Ramblers - lets get ramblin’.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 09-05-2020, 03:45 PM
KSDeputy's Avatar
KSDeputy KSDeputy is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 423
Liked 1,470 Times in 641 Posts
Default

That was quite interesting, thank you for posting it. I qualify each year so I can have a LEOSA card in case a family member out-of-state gets sick and I have to go see them. I live in KS. The law allows any law abiding citizen to carry either concealed or openly without a permit. They also allow retired officers to carry any place an active officer can carry. They issue a CCW for those persons who travel to other states that have a reciprocity agreement with KS. With training and costs, the first one costs about $ 250. I never got one, and most likely never will, given the above circumstances. I may stop qualifying for the LEOSA permit in two years.

Last edited by KSDeputy; 09-05-2020 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 09-05-2020, 03:55 PM
Forte Smitten Wesson's Avatar
Forte Smitten Wesson Forte Smitten Wesson is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,939
Likes: 2,358
Liked 3,410 Times in 1,231 Posts
Default



Why is Johnny Cage featured in this artwork and why is he doing Raiden's pose? Shouldn't it be Kurtis Stryker?
__________________
RIP .40 S&W (1990 - Present)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-05-2020, 05:42 PM
ispcapt ispcapt is online now
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 959
Likes: 147
Liked 1,503 Times in 451 Posts
Default

Some clarification...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
1. You aren't exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act nor are you exempt from State Prohibition due to Location or Private Property Laws. If Minnesota for example allows the "no concealed carry signs" to carry the weight of law. Then you're barred from carrying at the Mall of America if they have such a sign.
The purpose of LEOSA is to exempt qualified LEOs from state laws restricting carry. That is why it was passed into law. And states as such in the very first line of the statutes.
Unless the state of MN owns the Mall of America then the state cannot prohibit qualified LEOSA persons. Only the owners of the MOA can prohibit. LEOSA is very clear in that regard. The govt can only prohibit carrying on govt property. If the govt doesn't own it then the govt can't restrict it.
T18 USC S926(b)(1) and (2).

Quote:
Same goes with bans on carrying in places like bars, government buildings, post offices, etc.
Unless the govt owns the bars then the govt can't prohibit it. The govt can prohibit carrying in govt buildings and post offices since those are govt buildings. T18 USC S926(b)(2)

Quote:
LEOSA in a nut shell says you qualify if you have arrest powers and can carry a gun on and off duty.
To qualify the person must have statutory powers of arrest. There are places that have auxiliary and reserve officers who get their powers of arrest from being sworn by the sheriff or chief of police. Their arrest powers are not statutory but only by the powers of the sheriff or COP. Therefore they would not qualify under LEOSA.
LEOSA makes no distinction of carrying a firearm on and off duty. It only says (c)(2)is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

Quote:
Illinois requires that separated officers there get a FOID card.
In IL active officers are required to have a FOID card too, not just retired/separated. If you're an IL resident and will be handling firearms and/or ammunition then a FOID is required.

Actually LEOSA is pretty simple. It's been federal law since 2004. LEOSA only gets confusing when people who think they understand it start interjecting their own words that aren't in the statutes.
When LEOSA was signed into law I was on a committee to implement the process in our state and we were one of the first states to get the ball rolling getting a process for retirees to be able to qualify if their depts did not qualify retirees. We fielded questions from numerous other states who were trying to play catch up and get a retiree process in place. There were a lot of people reading things into LEOSA that was never in the statute. Some were of the opinion that retirees would have to take first aid classes since when their officers went to the range to qualify they also gave them first aid refresher. Their first aid refresher had nothing to do with qualification shoot but was simply a convenience for scheduling their training.
There is an 'expert' who is an attorney and in the employ of a national organization who still pushes out on the internet and magazine articles that LEOSA also covers qualified LEOs carrying rifles and shotguns. I sent him an email stating that unless the LEO can conceal the rifle or shotgun then it's not covered by LEOSA. He replied that 1) he's an attorney and he knows what he's talking about and 2) there's nothing in LEOSA that says anything about concealing a firearm. I sent him a reply quoting the entire statute and highlighting all the times the word 'concealed' was used in the statute, including the very title of the statutes. He never replied but he still sticks with publishing his opinion that rifles and shotguns are covered. He may be an attorney but he's not one I would ever hire to represent me if he can't read and understand a statute.
__________________
183rd FBINA
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:16 PM
JWM JWM is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 130
Likes: 11
Liked 119 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Like you said, a federal law, but in reality, the states run the LEOSA show. Very fortunate to be a retired fed in SC. Not required to have the state CCW. No fees to pay. Local PD gladly offers free yearly quals to any retiree who asks. We fire their in-house 30 round, off duty course. One week later, I swing by the station to pick up my laminated qual card.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:38 PM
Shark Bait's Avatar
Shark Bait Shark Bait is online now
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 6,429
Liked 6,948 Times in 1,552 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWM View Post
Like you said, a federal law, but in reality, the states run the LEOSA show. Very fortunate to be a retired fed in SC. Not required to have the state CCW. No fees to pay. Local PD gladly offers free yearly quals to any retiree who asks. We fire their in-house 30 round, off duty course. One week later, I swing by the station to pick up my laminated qual card.
Albuquerque PD does the same, but they issue your card on the spot.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:54 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,350
Likes: 2,272
Liked 3,014 Times in 1,007 Posts
Default What makes you think Federal LEOS’s weren’t covered by LEOSA originally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post


...
Federal Law Enforcement Agencies under the Executive Branch also weren't originally qualified nor were Military Police. But that changed with legislation.
....
Be safe...be well.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:54 PM
Old cop Old cop is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,599
Likes: 2,543
Liked 11,408 Times in 3,271 Posts
Default

I live in VA & retired from a PD here. We have retired creds & state law authorizes retirees to carry anywhere in the state. Most of us qualify for LEOSA, plus I took the extra step of obtaining a state ccw permit. I think all my bases are covered . . . . .
__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 09-06-2020, 04:57 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Be safe...be well.
In 2010, LEOSA was amended by the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act Improvements Act of 2010, which specifically extended coverage to include law enforcement officers of the Amtrak Police, Federal Reserve Police, and law enforcement officers of the executive branch of the Federal Government.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 09-06-2020, 07:49 AM
The Big D The Big D is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,350
Likes: 2,272
Liked 3,014 Times in 1,007 Posts
Default Not exactly.

IIRC, the 2010 amendment language was SPECIFICALLY to include Amtrak and Federal Reserve Police. The executive branch reference was to ensure understanding that ALL executive branch LEO’s were included.

Of course, they always were based on my personal experience.
Retired in November, 2005, and very soon thereafter sought LEOSA qualification. Was qualified before the end of 2005 and have maintained that save for one very brief period when my qualification dates did not overlap and now with the ongoing situation.

Will be qualifying anew on September 15. Will report soon after re: my experience that day.

Note: Think ispcapt will be along shortly to clarify the above if I am incorrect in pronouncing Federal LEO’s have been covered since enactment.

Be safe..be well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
In 2010, LEOSA was amended by the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act Improvements Act of 2010, which specifically extended coverage to include law enforcement officers of the Amtrak Police, Federal Reserve Police, and law enforcement officers of the executive branch of the Federal Government.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:07 AM
TTSH's Avatar
TTSH TTSH is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: MA
Posts: 7,664
Likes: 13,784
Liked 9,337 Times in 4,338 Posts
Default

I'm curious. Are retired Connecticut correctional officers considered law enforcement for purposes of LEOSA?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-06-2020, 09:06 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
IIRC, the 2010 amendment language was SPECIFICALLY to include Amtrak and Federal Reserve Police. The executive branch reference was to ensure understanding that ALL executive branch LEO’s were included.

Of course, they always were based on my personal experience.
Retired in November, 2005, and very soon thereafter sought LEOSA qualification. Was qualified before the end of 2005 and have maintained that save for one very brief period when my qualification dates did not overlap and now with the ongoing situation.

Will be qualifying anew on September 15. Will report soon after re: my experience that day.

Note: Think ispcapt will be along shortly to clarify the above if I am incorrect in pronouncing Federal LEO’s have been covered since enactment.

Be safe..be well.
Some Feds were from the start and others weren't. Hence the fix in 2010.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-06-2020, 09:09 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTSH View Post
I'm curious. Are retired Connecticut correctional officers considered law enforcement for purposes of LEOSA?
It depends on how Connecticut does it. In FL, it took specific legislation to amend Section 943 of the State Statutes to list Correctional Officers as LE for the purposes of LEOSA. That was done in 2019. Prior to that, they weren't covered.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 09-06-2020, 02:51 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,350
Likes: 2,272
Liked 3,014 Times in 1,007 Posts
Default I’m curious...

...so please tell us what feds were covered from the start?

I know zero about that as it is not addressed in the language of the Act...nor have I ever read/heard of anything in that regard.

Be safe...be well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
Some Feds were from the start and others weren't. Hence the fix in 2010.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-06-2020, 03:14 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

I'm not an expert...but special agents of the various LE agencies under Treasury, Justice, Homeland Security etc were all covered from the get-go.

I think that the law enforcement officers of the Federal Protective Service, Coast Guard, Bureau of Prisons and many other agencies were later included when the statute was broadened. This is my recollection...there are others here, (as above), who have much broader knowledge and recollection in this arena than I do.

You can read a synopsis of the changes to LEOSA in wikipedia and other sites online, including the NRA.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 09-06-2020, 04:29 PM
ispcapt ispcapt is online now
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 959
Likes: 147
Liked 1,503 Times in 451 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
I'm not an expert...but special agents of the various LE agencies under Treasury, Justice, Homeland Security etc were all covered from the get-go.
On another forum a few years ago there was someone, who claimed to be a long time LEO, who said the Secret Service wasn't initially covered by LEOSA because they're not really law enforcement. All they do is protect the president and they don't arrest anyone.
What the guy did prove was that some agencies need to do a whole lot better job when hiring if he was really LE.
__________________
183rd FBINA
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-06-2020, 04:43 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
On another forum a few years ago there was someone, who claimed to be a long time LEO, who said the Secret Service wasn't initially covered by LEOSA because they're not really law enforcement. All they do is protect the president and they don't arrest anyone.
What the guy did prove was that some agencies need to do a whole lot better job when hiring if he was really LE.
That's pretty funny right there.

My original roommate from basic FLETC back in the early 80's was with Secret Service. (As were several members of the class.)

I ended up running into him again years later when we both worked in Miami, and I had an opportunity to enlist their assistance on a counterfeit currency case I was working involving narco-traffickers.

I repaid the kindness by helping out on a protection detail as an OTA (Other Treasury Agent). This was before the move to Homeland Security in 2003.

Some folks, when they don't know something, should just learn to keep their ignorance to themselves, or at least admit that they're just not sure.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #22  
Old 09-06-2020, 05:52 PM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,423
Likes: 10,357
Liked 10,249 Times in 3,464 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
On another forum a few years ago there was someone, who claimed to be a long time LEO, who said the Secret Service wasn't initially covered by LEOSA because they're not really law enforcement. All they do is protect the president and they don't arrest anyone.
What the guy did prove was that some agencies need to do a whole lot better job when hiring if he was really LE.
That reminded me. mid-to-late-2000s I was going through the selection process for a federal 1811 position (criminal investigator, powers of arrest, carry firearms, etc.) at a lesser-known federal LE agency. This agency conducts their interviews at the end of the process, after the candidate has gone through orientation on the agency's mission and duties, testing, background checks, performance assessments, etc. Took me about 3 years to get to the interview. At the interview I was told that the position requires carrying a gun. I responded that yes, I knew that. My interviewer then told me of another candidate who had gone through the entire process, made it to the interview, and apparently learned for the first time at that point that this agency's 1811s carry guns. She left the process.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #23  
Old 09-06-2020, 06:24 PM
K Frame Keith's Avatar
K Frame Keith K Frame Keith is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pike County PA
Posts: 731
Likes: 1,050
Liked 1,394 Times in 433 Posts
Default

i agree with the OP and maintain both my LEOSA and state cards.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-06-2020, 06:25 PM
sigp220.45's Avatar
sigp220.45 sigp220.45 is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 18,605
Liked 19,952 Times in 3,220 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
That reminded me. mid-to-late-2000s I was going through the selection process for a federal 1811 position (criminal investigator, powers of arrest, carry firearms, etc.) at a lesser-known federal LE agency. This agency conducts their interviews at the end of the process, after the candidate has gone through orientation on the agency's mission and duties, testing, background checks, performance assessments, etc. Took me about 3 years to get to the interview. At the interview I was told that the position requires carrying a gun. I responded that yes, I knew that. My interviewer then told me of another candidate who had gone through the entire process, made it to the interview, and apparently learned for the first time at that point that this agency's 1811s carry guns. She left the process.
On my very first day (Sunday night, actually) at the FBI Academy we all had to sign a paper acknowledging we would have to carry a gun. They explained some candidates had gotten all the way to the Academy and then squawked about having to shoot a gun.

I can’t tell you how many times otherwise seemingly intelligent people have told me FBI agents had to have either US Marshals or local police along on arrests since FBI agents had no powers of arrests. That would be a surprise to the many hundreds of people I arrested during my career.
__________________
Ramblers - lets get ramblin’.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-06-2020, 06:38 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
On my very first day (Sunday night, actually) at the FBI Academy we all had to sign a paper acknowledging we would have to carry a gun. They explained some candidates had gotten all the way to the Academy and then squawked about having to shoot a gun.

I can’t tell you how many times otherwise seemingly intelligent people have told me FBI agents had to have either US Marshals or local police along on arrests since FBI agents had no powers of arrests. That would be a surprise to the many hundreds of people I arrested during my career.
I remember when I worked with my first federal agency, the FBI office was upstairs a few flights in the federal building at 26 Federal Plaza in NYC. I was doing some stuff with the JTTF at the time and a couple guys were interested in recruiting me.

One of the things I remember having to do was to see how many times I could pull the trigger on a revolver in a minute or multiple minutes, I can't remember how long the period was.

This was the early to mid 80's, so they might not do that anymore...but that is something I would have considered a clue.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #26  
Old 09-06-2020, 06:58 PM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,423
Likes: 10,357
Liked 10,249 Times in 3,464 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I can’t tell you how many times otherwise seemingly intelligent people have told me FBI agents had to have either US Marshals or local police along on arrests since FBI agents had no powers of arrests. That would be a surprise to the many hundreds of people I arrested during my career.
My understanding is that's how it was in the early days, when it was the Bureau of Investigation, 1908-1934, I believe, before it became the FBI.

On the plus side, one of the 1811s from this agency I spoke with said it could be an advantage when conducting interviews as people wouldn't think they could get themselves or someone else in trouble by talking...

Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 09-06-2020, 07:29 PM
sigp220.45's Avatar
sigp220.45 sigp220.45 is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 18,605
Liked 19,952 Times in 3,220 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
I remember when I worked with my first federal agency, the FBI office was upstairs a few flights in the federal building at 26 Federal Plaza in NYC. I was doing some stuff with the JTTF at the time and a couple guys were interested in recruiting me.

One of the things I remember having to do was to see how many times I could pull the trigger on a revolver in a minute or multiple minutes, I can't remember how long the period was.

This was the early to mid 80's, so they might not do that anymore...but that is something I would have considered a clue.
I had to do the same thing in 1990. They handed me a Model 13 and had me pull the trigger 80 times with each hand.

I also had to certify I could drive a standard transmission car, and I had to provide a hat size.
__________________
Ramblers - lets get ramblin’.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:13 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
On another forum a few years ago there was someone, who claimed to be a long time LEO, who said the Secret Service wasn't initially covered by LEOSA because they're not really law enforcement. All they do is protect the president and they don't arrest anyone.
What the guy did prove was that some agencies need to do a whole lot better job when hiring if he was really LE.
USSS primary reason for existence isn't protecting the President. It is investigating financial crimes involving US Currency. Protecting POTUS is secondary mission of the agency. The vast majority of them work criminal cases and arrest people daily.

A standard career in the USSS is you get assigned to a field office, work cases, assist with dignitary protection, rotate through DC for a primary assignment to dignitary protection, then rotate to another field office, and reach retirement.

They were covered from the start since they were under the Treasury. Their classification as Special Agents are no different than FBI or ATF.

The issue with some Federal LE not being covered was Amtrak Police, US Federal Reserve Police (only made LE after 9-11), US Military, etc...

USCG was originally and automatically covered since they originally fell under the Treasury Department and then moved to DHS. Bordering Officers are sworn LE and conduct LE functions in US waters and the EEZ.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:17 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
On my very first day (Sunday night, actually) at the FBI Academy we all had to sign a paper acknowledging we would have to carry a gun. They explained some candidates had gotten all the way to the Academy and then squawked about having to shoot a gun.

I can’t tell you how many times otherwise seemingly intelligent people have told me FBI agents had to have either US Marshals or local police along on arrests since FBI agents had no powers of arrests. That would be a surprise to the many hundreds of people I arrested during my career.
FBI originally didn't have powers of arrest and they didn't start carrying guns until the 1930s.

From the FBI's own website.

Timeline — FBI

Quote:
June 18, 1934
Congress enacted a series of anti-crime legislation over the months of May and June 1934 in response to crimes like the June 1933 Kansas City Massacre, where gangsters killed DOI Agent Raymond Caffrey, Jr. and other law enforcement officials. These May/June Crime Bills gave special agents the power of arrest and the authority to carry firearms. Previously, special agents could only make a "citizen's arrest," otherwise the agent had to call on a U.S. marshal or local police officer to take custody of a suspect.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:19 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I had to do the same thing in 1990. They handed me a Model 13 and had me pull the trigger 80 times with each hand.

I also had to certify I could drive a standard transmission car, and I had to provide a hat size.
Had do to that to qualify for the academy and for every state job I've had.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:52 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: bootheel of Missouri
Posts: 13,234
Likes: 5,300
Liked 21,031 Times in 6,694 Posts
Default

I got boots older than this guy . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #32  
Old 09-07-2020, 10:44 AM
Mike 139 Mike 139 is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: SE U.S.
Posts: 74
Likes: 117
Liked 217 Times in 62 Posts
Default

When I retired, it was before 2004 and HR 218.... After turning in my Uniforms and Laptop and Handheld, the Admin. Captain handed me my Gold Badge that has “Retired Police Sergeant” on it...He gave me a form to send in to receive a State CCW @ no charge....it came in the mail a couple weeks later.

When my Oldest went to Quantico, We went to visit him and I saw something I had no idea existed... FBI Police....Apparently they guard the Academy and Federal buildings... They had the cleanest Patrol Cars I’ve ever seen....No smells, dents, or scratches...

The other thing I found odd is that there’s NO guns allowed there...Graduating Agents are NOT given their issue guns until they LEAVE....Active Agents returning for a class/training have to check their firearms in on arrival and have no access until they leave....

My Son is a GS15 now and in today’s climate, I give Thanks every night that he’s NOT on the Street, Like I was and He was for his first years in LE.

Anyone having any questions/concerns about who is or who is not covered can look it up .... Title 18 926 C and go from there....

Stay Safe and Be Careful out there.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #33  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:43 PM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default





Since FDLE requires that we qualify individually with each class of weapon. We're issued two cards. One for Semi-Autos and another for Revolvers.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-19-2020, 07:29 PM
Screwball Screwball is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ME
Posts: 273
Likes: 60
Liked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike 139 View Post
The other thing I found odd is that there’s NO guns allowed there...Graduating Agents are NOT given their issue guns until they LEAVE....Active Agents returning for a class/training have to check their firearms in on arrival and have no access until they leave....
That’s actually a common thing through mostly all Federal academies (to include FLETC). From what we were told, it is to keep the chance of mixing up live fire from training down to a minimum.

Let’s say a FLETC student leaves a round in a pocket... even an empty case... they are expected to turn it into staff as soon as possible. Instructors who are not firearms instructors will likely say hold onto it until you see your firearms guys, but it is very stressed during training.

When you have to shoot, instructors have the firearms inside their golf cart, along with ammo. After training, they bring them to the on base armory. They also ask to check yourself prior to leaving... but considering you have regular magazines along with your red gun while in training, they realize people miss things (why they emphasize turning it in if you find something).

Prior to graduation, they are brought over to the armory just outside the gate, and assigned a tag for the graduate to pick up (or if the background is not completed, they are shipped with body armor and credentials to their respective duty station). Most agencies don’t have live fire training right up to the very end of training (usually Simunitions or blank fire training). Only ones that have access to firearms on base are security personnel... but I’m sure there are plans in place if s*** happens.

I’m sure that some L/E coming to a Federal training center have disregarded the firearm policy, but if you have a chance of losing a job you don’t have yet (new hire)... most comply. I do know they have taken a step down at Glynco in the wake of COVID, being I watched a graduation online where staff had pistols in their holsters (where as previously, it was empty holsters). Don’t know if they just want to keep contact down with the armory, but I have no idea about regular training days.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-20-2020, 03:06 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
Some clarification...

The purpose of LEOSA is to exempt qualified LEOs from state laws restricting carry. That is why it was passed into law. And states as such in the very first line of the statutes.
Unless the state of MN owns the Mall of America then the state cannot prohibit qualified LEOSA persons. Only the owners of the MOA can prohibit. LEOSA is very clear in that regard. The govt can only prohibit carrying on govt property. If the govt doesn't own it then the govt can't restrict it.
T18 USC S926(b)(1) and (2).


Unless the govt owns the bars then the govt can't prohibit it. The govt can prohibit carrying in govt buildings and post offices since those are govt buildings. T18 USC S926(b)(2)


To qualify the person must have statutory powers of arrest. There are places that have auxiliary and reserve officers who get their powers of arrest from being sworn by the sheriff or chief of police. Their arrest powers are not statutory but only by the powers of the sheriff or COP. Therefore they would not qualify under LEOSA.
LEOSA makes no distinction of carrying a firearm on and off duty. It only says (c)(2)is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;


In IL active officers are required to have a FOID card too, not just retired/separated. If you're an IL resident and will be handling firearms and/or ammunition then a FOID is required.

Actually LEOSA is pretty simple. It's been federal law since 2004. LEOSA only gets confusing when people who think they understand it start interjecting their own words that aren't in the statutes.
When LEOSA was signed into law I was on a committee to implement the process in our state and we were one of the first states to get the ball rolling getting a process for retirees to be able to qualify if their depts did not qualify retirees. We fielded questions from numerous other states who were trying to play catch up and get a retiree process in place. There were a lot of people reading things into LEOSA that was never in the statute. Some were of the opinion that retirees would have to take first aid classes since when their officers went to the range to qualify they also gave them first aid refresher. Their first aid refresher had nothing to do with qualification shoot but was simply a convenience for scheduling their training.
There is an 'expert' who is an attorney and in the employ of a national organization who still pushes out on the internet and magazine articles that LEOSA also covers qualified LEOs carrying rifles and shotguns. I sent him an email stating that unless the LEO can conceal the rifle or shotgun then it's not covered by LEOSA. He replied that 1) he's an attorney and he knows what he's talking about and 2) there's nothing in LEOSA that says anything about concealing a firearm. I sent him a reply quoting the entire statute and highlighting all the times the word 'concealed' was used in the statute, including the very title of the statutes. He never replied but he still sticks with publishing his opinion that rifles and shotguns are covered. He may be an attorney but he's not one I would ever hire to represent me if he can't read and understand a statute.
ispcapt, it appears that the State of Illinois views that long guns are covered under LEOSA.







The Court basically ssid concealed doesn't have to be on your person. Now of course, this is a State ruling and not a Federal ruling and a such the Fed has said bupkis on whether or not long guns are applicable since the only firearm specifically mentioned in 18 USC 926B is the following.

Quote:
(e)As used in this section, the term “firearm”—
(1)except as provided in this subsection, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;
(2)includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and
(3)does not include—
(A)any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
(B)any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
(C)any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).
18 USC 921 states what a firearm is.

Quote:
(3)The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
So it could be that the lawyer ain't wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:43 AM
CH4's Avatar
CH4 CH4 is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Washington/Philippines
Posts: 5,016
Likes: 10,713
Liked 9,637 Times in 3,115 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post




Since FDLE requires that we qualify individually with each class of weapon. We're issued two cards. One for Semi-Autos and another for Revolvers.
Issuing two cards is silly.

Conversely, in Nevada the standard for “Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers,” as defined in 18USC 926C, is to qualify with either a revolver or pistol, using the same course of fire for Nevada state CCW holders: 30 rounds no time limit

6 rounds @ 3 yds
12 rounds @ 5 yds
12 rounds @ 7 yds

This authorizes the retiree to carry any “Handgun”; unfortunately it doesn’t say, “Firearm.”
Attached Thumbnails
LEOSA Explained in Detail-362ecaa3-769b-470d-93a1-22c17c9eb142-jpg  
__________________
FBINA 213

Last edited by CH4; 09-20-2020 at 09:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-20-2020, 08:59 AM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: bootheel of Missouri
Posts: 13,234
Likes: 5,300
Liked 21,031 Times in 6,694 Posts
Default

That case was about Drew Peterson's possession, not concealment, of a short-barrel, semiautomatic AR-15. Peterson was a former LEO with legitimate LEOSA carry. His third wife drowned suspiciously and his fourth wife disappeared and remains missing. During the investigation, officers seized the illegal AR-15 and other firearms from Peterson's home. Peterson's claim was that he possessed the firearm as an officer, and should therefore be able to possess it under LEOSA. The court agreed, and the illegal weapon possession charges were dismissed. The case was not about, and did not decide with any precedent any issue regarding carrying a concealed rifle.

ISPCAPT is the man regarding LEOSA in Illinois. He knows of which he speaks and writes . . .

(As an aside, Peterson was ultimately convicted of killing the third wife.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
ispcapt, it appears that the State of Illinois views that long guns are covered under LEOSA.

The Court basically ssid concealed doesn't have to be on your person. Now of course, this is a State ruling and not a Federal ruling and a such the Fed has said bupkis on whether or not long guns are applicable since the only firearm specifically mentioned in 18 USC 926B is the following.
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Last edited by Muss Muggins; 09-20-2020 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #38  
Old 09-20-2020, 09:24 AM
ispcapt ispcapt is online now
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 959
Likes: 147
Liked 1,503 Times in 451 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
a9b8f6280b.jpg[/img]ispcapt, it appears that the State of Illinois views that long guns are covered under LEOSA.
As I explained in my PM this is the Drew Peterson case. Well known case in IL. He is a former LEO who is convicted of killing 1 wife and suspected in killing another.
This was about Peterson possessing a firearm while pending charges. Basicially, he contended he could possess the firearm because of his prior LEO status.
This ruling was in a circuit court. It has no bearing on any other court any where else in the state or even judge in the same circuit and is pretty much viewed in most of the state as an incorrect misinterpretation of LEOSA by that judge.
__________________
183rd FBINA
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #39  
Old 09-20-2020, 10:55 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CH4 View Post
Issuing two cards is silly.

Conversely, in Nevada the standard for “Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers,” as defined in 18USC 926C, is to qualify with either a revolver or pistol, using the same course of fire for Nevada state CCW holders: 30 rounds no time limit

6 rounds @ 3 yds
12 rounds @ 5 yds
12 rounds @ 7 yds

This authorizes the retiree to carry any “Handgun”; unfortunately it doesn’t say, “Firearm.”
FDLE does what FDLE does. The nickname of "Forget Doing Law Enforcement" doesn't exist in a vacuum for nothing with some.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 09-21-2020, 12:57 AM
AZretired's Avatar
AZretired AZretired is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Mexico & Arizona
Posts: 1,620
Likes: 679
Liked 1,429 Times in 635 Posts
Default

I used to stay Leosa qualified because I often visited family in NY and NJ. I no longer do so I just have my AZ CCL which is good in 38 states and is good for 5 years. LEOSA is great but jumping through all the hoops yearly was a pain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Support your Police, & NRA
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 09-21-2020, 11:52 AM
sigp220.45's Avatar
sigp220.45 sigp220.45 is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 18,605
Liked 19,952 Times in 3,220 Posts
Default

I did mine Saturday. I thought the Corona might have thinned the ranks a little, but nope - biggest crowd yet. 20 rounds at the range, 45 minutes at the SO while they printed my new card, and I’m good for another trip around the sun.
__________________
Ramblers - lets get ramblin’.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #42  
Old 09-21-2020, 12:27 PM
CH4's Avatar
CH4 CH4 is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Washington/Philippines
Posts: 5,016
Likes: 10,713
Liked 9,637 Times in 3,115 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami_JBT View Post
FDLE does what FDLE does. The nickname of "Forget Doing Law Enforcement" doesn't exist in a vacuum for nothing with some.
It’s not just Florida. Some states make LEOSA qualifications much more expensive and onerous than others.
__________________
FBINA 213
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #43  
Old 09-21-2020, 01:31 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CH4 View Post
It’s not just Florida. Some states make LEOSA qualifications much more expensive and onerous than others.
Yep. In NC we have to get the paperwork notarized. (Sheriff's office does this gratis, thankfully.) And send in $25 renewal annually.

Initial application requires a $50 fee.

Considering that the LE price for a five year state carry permit is about $40, LEOSA is not a great deal financially. But I still do it every year...so far.

For those whose agencies will perform the qualification and issue ID, the state does not get involved in the process. Not an option for us retired feds.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Last edited by blues7; 09-21-2020 at 01:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #44  
Old 09-21-2020, 03:16 PM
Steve_in_PA Steve_in_PA is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Liked 83 Times in 37 Posts
Default

9. LEOSA is an administrative defense. It doesn't prevent any jurisdiction from arresting someone (as NYS and NYC has done in the past).

Where in LEOSA does it say that is is an administrative defense?

It's a federal law that allows qualified LEO's to carry. States like NY and NJ have arrested people when the law first came out because they did not think the person was covered under LEOSA. The PA Constable arrested in NY, for example.

If you are an active LEO or retired carrying the required LEOSA credentials, be arrested than have to use the "administrative defense" line to prove your innocence is stupid.

Do those states also arrest people with a firearms carry license? I mean it's no different than being covered by LEOSA. Oh, you have a firearms carry lisense, that I can verify as being legit? Well, I'm going to arrest you any way .....and you need to prove yourself in front of the court.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #45  
Old 09-22-2020, 03:10 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: bootheel of Missouri
Posts: 13,234
Likes: 5,300
Liked 21,031 Times in 6,694 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CH4 View Post
It’s not just Florida. Some states make LEOSA qualifications much more expensive and onerous than others.
Thankfully, like a lot of other things the Show Me State does well, Missouri doesn’t involve itself in the process. It’s up to your agency to issue the card, and then if your agency doesn’t do retired qualifications, there are several that will. No agency I know of charges money, there’s no state mandated course of fire, there’s no continuing education, and my qual takes as long as it takes to shoot 50 rounds. I qualify with one pistol, and then I carry whatever I want . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-22-2020, 03:12 PM
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: bootheel of Missouri
Posts: 13,234
Likes: 5,300
Liked 21,031 Times in 6,694 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues7 View Post
For those whose agencies will perform the qualification and issue ID, the state does not get involved in the process. Not an option for us retired feds.
That is unfortunate. I’m a retired fed, and most agencies I know of in Missouri will let the feds in their area join in with the other old folk . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-22-2020, 04:00 PM
blues7's Avatar
blues7 blues7 is online now
Member
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns
Posts: 1,756
Likes: 1,116
Liked 3,838 Times in 1,176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
That is unfortunate. I’m a retired fed, and most agencies I know of in Missouri will let the feds in their area join in with the other old folk . . .
The sheriff's office here is extremely supportive and helpful. They qualify me at no cost annually...and even notarize the paperwork as required by the state...again, at no cost to me.

However, the state DOJ in Raleigh is the card issuer and they get their annual pound of flesh. ($50 for the initial annual certification, $25 for yearly renewals.) I don't mind too much as it's not a financial burden, and it's useful.

This year because of the teeming number of new applicants for CCH licenses, it's taken nigh on three weeks without receiving my card in the mail. It's never taken over a week previously.

Frustrating, but at least I have a state license which is good for another year and which is accepted in most states...just not the couple that most of our family and friends still live in.

C'est la vie.
__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-30-2020, 08:48 AM
Miami_JBT Miami_JBT is offline
Suspended
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 466
Likes: 5
Liked 1,364 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_in_PA View Post
9. LEOSA is an administrative defense. It doesn't prevent any jurisdiction from arresting someone (as NYS and NYC has done in the past).

Where in LEOSA does it say that is is an administrative defense?

It's a federal law that allows qualified LEO's to carry. States like NY and NJ have arrested people when the law first came out because they did not think the person was covered under LEOSA. The PA Constable arrested in NY, for example.

If you are an active LEO or retired carrying the required LEOSA credentials, be arrested than have to use the "administrative defense" line to prove your innocence is stupid.

Do those states also arrest people with a firearms carry license? I mean it's no different than being covered by LEOSA. Oh, you have a firearms carry lisense, that I can verify as being legit? Well, I'm going to arrest you any way .....and you need to prove yourself in front of the court.
I meant to say affirmative defense. LEOSA is no different than FOPA in that regard. Even FBI Legal cites it as an Affirmative Defense.

Off-Duty Officers and Firearms

Quote:
Qualified officers may use LEOSA only as an affirmative defense if prosecuted. An affirmative defense requires that the finder of fact, the judge, must make a determination of whether the person raising the defense is eligible to do so. To be eligible, the judge must have determined that the person raising the defense is, in fact, a qualified officer under LEOSA and was carrying the required identification at the time of the alleged violation. This means that the act will not keep officers from being arrested. However, LEOSA will stand as a defense at a hearing as to the legality of the arrest if the arrestee is, in fact, a qualified officer with the requisite identification.
FOPA is the same when traveling with firearms. If it an Affirmative Defense.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-14-2020, 12:00 PM
safearm's Avatar
safearm safearm is offline
US Veteran
LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail LEOSA Explained in Detail  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,687
Likes: 164
Liked 528 Times in 203 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CH4 View Post
It’s not just Florida. Some states make LEOSA qualifications much more expensive and onerous than others.
I don't consider it expensive or onerous, but retired LEOs have to qualify on the same course of fire as full-time, active officers (not the back-up/off-duty gun course). Course of fire is 50 rounds, the course is mandated by BLEOST, and changes every couple of years. I'm able to qualify with a local police department at no cost (except for ammo which I must provide). They give me a sticker for the back of my retired ID card which states the date, course of fire, score (pass/fail) and instructor's name. They also maintain the record of qualification.

Last edited by safearm; 10-14-2020 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why we are all here, explained. TomkinsSP The Lounge 10 04-08-2018 09:17 AM
New changes to HR 218/LEOSA sigp220.45 Concealed Carry & Self Defense 1 11-18-2010 09:01 AM
1911 explained sipowicz Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 30 02-09-2010 09:25 PM
Facebook explained.... sipowicz The Lounge 11 02-08-2010 12:25 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:20 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)