There's lots of chatting here about righteous self defense shootings and bad shoots. For those interested, here's a case in the squishy middle.

During the George Floyd riots in Omaha a few months ago, a bar owner and his dad were protecting the bar. They were attacked by some rioters. The bar owner shot and killed one of the rioters. The County Attorney, who has been pretty even handed in SD cases, cleared the bar owner. A big protest ensued. Because of the uproar, the County Attorney agreed to call a Grand Jury to look at charges. The Grand Jury is just starting to meet.

The local paper just did an analysis looking at both sides of the argument (self defense vs not) using local attorneys that have Nebraska SD experience. The article also contains videos of the event from multiple sources.

The article is long, but it really lays out how messy the legal side of an SD shooting can be. Not a binary good or bad choice. Also, even if the bar owner isn't charged, important to note it's already pretty much wrecked his life.

Here's the link.
Provocation or protection? Videos, case law will guide grand jury in James Scurlock's death | Crime News | omaha.com

ETA - for background - Omaha probably has 25 to 30 murders per year and just a guess but maybe 3 to 4 non-fatal shootings per week. IMO, Nebraska probably sits in middle in SD laws. Somewhere between Texas and New Jersey.

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Vegan by proxy.

Whatever the outcome of the case, someone else will probably own
the bar.

Guaranteed, legal fees will eat the owners. As for the legal outcome, hard to say since the event occurred on a public street. If it had occurred within the the confines of the property, likely would have been an easy case to settle.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Sometimes, the decisions on cases like these can be long drawn, convoluted, and strange. Many will disagree, no matter how it is decided. Actually, the less informed will probably disagree with a jury just because. Every detail-especially the details not reported by the media-influences the jury decision. Sometimes, despite public opinion, the law has to be considered.
Trevor Martin and George Zimmerman case is an example. Lots of disagreement from the public about the verdict. But Zimmerman had broken contact and was leaving the area when Martin ambushed him. Martin was beating Zimmermans head against concrete, which has the same result as hitting a head with a brick. Lots of the public didn't see it that way.

Already happened. He owned two bars, side by side. The building owner revoked his leases. Why they revoked them is in question, but they still got revoked and the revocations happened immediately after this occurred.

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Vegan by proxy.

Personally, my thoughts on the matter are as follows.

The letter of the law is to be followed, but not so strictly as to allow one's self to be terrorized, brutalized, victimized, or outright murdered.

If I owned a business that was my livelihood, then I would defend it with my life against those who would seek to destroy it. It makes no difference to me whether it has been decided that it's suddenly okay for certain people to destroy my property, ruin my livelihood, and especially harm me in the process.

In such a situation, you're pretty much darned in you do and darned if you don't... Either your business is destroyed and you're financially ruined, or you get sued for defending your business and you're financially ruined, so you better believe that if given the choice between the two, I'll take the route of a warrior and fight to protect what's mine and fight in court to defend my rights.
I'll always stand up for myself, for what is right and just. It won't earn me any popularity and it will most certainly be the harder it the two paths, but I refuse to be a victim and I refuse to stand idly by in the face of wickedness and injustice.

Don't get me wrong, I wish to be a peaceful man at heart, and I will always do my best to turn the other cheek and seek a path of peace, but when it comes to such grotesque injustice as being victimized as Law Enforcement is forced to turn a blind eye to my plight then turn on me because I didn't just lie down and take it, that's when I say NO! I refuse to accept the unilateral lawlessness that is going on in some parts of the nation and if it were to arrive at my doorstep, then I'm going to approach the situation in what I believe is the only appropriate fashion, I will defend myself, my home, and my family because if I'm going to loose everything either way, then I would rather go down fighting.

I only pray that it never comes to that and that order will be restored nationwide soon enough.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

On the other hand, he is still alive.

Well that's clear as mud.

I think the biggest mistake here was standing on the street. Both of the Gardners should have retreated inside the bar.

I'm glad I'm not on this jury. This will take a while to sort out.

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Freedom isn't free.

I hope he has a lawyer review his lease. He may end up still owning his bars and the building they're in.

That was my thought as well.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

It's disappointing that the prosecutor abdicated his responsibility to make charging decisions to a mob.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Thoughtful answer.

IMO, in the current political climate (at least in the cities) you have to make a choice if someone attacks you with deadly force: 1) being killed or maimed or 2) using deadly force to protect yourself (or your loved ones) to stay alive, but losing everything you have in the aftermath from the legal process.

Not 100%, but seems like the direction things are going.

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Vegan by proxy.

This is the most insightful and relevant quote from the story:

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I am a man of faith and a man of hope. I reject the world's pessimistic view and asserted slanted messages of hopelessness. I reject the agents of chaos within society who promote fear, doubt, paranoia, and anarchy within society. I reject evil and all those who sow its seeds.

I will fight until the end to uphold my ideals of justice and morality in spite of all opposition, holding fast to my belief that justice will prevail in the end, regardless of whether or not I'm around to see it.

For too long have good people remained silent, succumbed to fear and doubt, allowed evil to take root by relinquishing their ideals and allowing their conscience to be compromised as their minds became tainted by nihilism. I reject it all and will stand firm before my convictions. I accept personal responsibility for my actions, especially my faults, my failures, and my shortcomings. I shall seek to better myself with great tenacity rather than allow fear to compromise my spirit and surrender in the face of darkness.

Folks may mock me for my speech, doubt my resolve, question my convictions, and slander my name, but by God I will be a man of courage regardless and my light shall pierce through their darkness.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Do you think concealed carriers should keep moving forward using the old rules and just let the cards fall where they may? Or do you think if someone get incidentally gets caught up in a deadly force attack in a riot there's a better approach?

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Vegan by proxy.

Two thoughts:

1. If this were 1955, we wouldn't be having this conversation. (I miss America. Where did she go? If you see her, tell her to come home).

2. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Every time. Be more clever than the bad guys. Think outside the box. Way outside it.


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So very Politically Incorrect

I think that the criminal code does not fit well during mass chaos. I am not your spiritual advisor. . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Probably why I didn’t ask you for spirtual advice.

Since you spent years as a federal probation officer (IIRC) and are a bounty agent now (IIRC); and since you’re participating in a forum where people discuss things about concealed carry issues, I assumed you had nore depth than just parroting “I think that the criminal code does not fit well during mass chaos.” Guess not.

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Vegan by proxy.

In addition to my 20 year Federal career, I also have ten years as a real police officer and professional firefighter, and two years as the criminal investigator for a county prosecutor. I’m more of a bail bond agent than I am a bounty hunter, because I don’t write a bond if I think you’re gonna run. I have much more depth, but I don’t offer advice for free on an anonymous Internet forum. Here’s my best advice for free. Unless it impacts me or mine, I’m out. You can Venmo me in advance for paid advice . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It's not directly relevant, but I'm 7'2" and routinely date 19 year old heiresses (if they are buxom and have daddy issues).

A non-answer. Duly noted.

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Vegan by proxy.

That actually is an answer. Most people do not realize that “No comment” is a comment. Your reply is duly noted as well. You are not getting an answer that you want. That prosecutor was spot on. My 35 years in the business have very explicitly demonstrated to me that the criminal code does not fit well in incidents of mass chaos. Your reaction will be based on your experience and your desire to survive. One of my favorite federal judges once rebuffed an objection by a defendant acting as his own attorney by stating “I do not have to tell you why. This is a trial. This is not law school.” The same reasoning applies here. That is all.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I’m wondering whether insurance for a small business covers rioting, or whether rioting is considered force majeure. I know that insurance, under its force majeure clause, can exclude coverage for terrorism, for example.

I’m not a lawyer nor an insurance broker, so I don’t know the answer to the question I pose. But if believed my insurance would cover damage caused by rioting, I’d think about just locking up and going home rather than sticking around and trying protect the place.

^^^^Entirely reasonable plan.

Just in. Grand jury returned a manslaughter charge against Jake Gardner plus some lesser charges. The special prosecutor alluded that the tipping point for the manslaughter charge was partly due to Gardner’s prior social media postings and text messages showing intent (my paraphrase). Another charge, first degree assault, was related to Gardner firing a second warning shots.

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Vegan by proxy.

Alas, such is the cost of going into battle, you have to be willing to accept the consequences and see it through to the very end.

The situation was completely screwed up to begin with and it was obvious how this was going to end considering all of the circumstances involved.

The first and potentially most difficult factor in any battle is considering whether it is worthy of pursuit, and having the strength to stand down in spite of your anger if it is not.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

At least one of my policies excludes riots and insurrections. An "all risks" policy is probably affordable or unobtainable to those who truly need them.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

I do think that is the sole question.

Everything else is either a sad commentary or just sad. Loss of business, cost of defense, whatever. If he was reasonably in fear for his life or of serious bodily harm it's justifiable. If the law in Nebraska is unclear on this point that's a sad commentary as well.

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Come and take it!!

I think the messy point is - was Gardner a mutual combatant claiming self defense or was he an innocent bystander that was attacked defending his business.

In his press conference the special prosecutor implied the grand jury thought he was a mutual combatant looking for trouble because of the content of his social media posts and text messages.

Interestingly, I heard the original county attorney, the one that didn’t charge him, on tv saying getting a grand jury indictment is way easier than getting the conviction.

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Vegan by proxy.

He is absolutely correct. A good prosecutor could convince a grand jury to indict a cheese sandwich, goes the saying . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The bar owner is indicted.

...The bar owner, Jake Gardner, was indicted by a grand jury in Douglas County on four counts, including manslaughter, use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, attempted first degree assault and making terrorist threats, officials said....

...Though Mr. Franklin declined to elaborate on the specific evidence that was presented, he said that the grand jury was “able to understand that Jake Gardner was threatening the use of deadly force in the absence of being threatened with a concomitant deadly force by James Scurlock or anyone who was associated with him.”

White Bar Owner Indicted in Fatal Shooting of Black Man During Protest - The New York Times

I'm not surprised. I reiterate, he should have gone inside when things got heated.

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Freedom isn't free.

Jury nullification is the answer in these situations.

The bad news for the newly-minted defendant is he needs to find $50-$75k for a defense attorney to keep him from conviction.

Not shooting people is much cheaper.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt," the standard of proof at trial, is a much higher bar than "more likely than not," the standard used by the grand jury.

There are only really two possible criminal defense strategies for any defendant. The first is "I didn't do it," which is rarely successful, even if you actually didn't do it, as evidenced by the wrongful conviction cases that appear with some regularity, especially with advances in forensic science since the crime.

The second, and most successful, is "You can't prove it," which can be a winner even if you did it.

I wish this man luck, and I wish the jury godspeed in sorting out the chaos. There but for the grace of God go us all . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

This just on the news a few minutes ago. Jake Gardner, the bar owner/defendant here, was supposed to turn himself in today on manslaughter charges from the grand jury. He committed suicide instead. He was defending himself, his father, and his property during a riot. Tragic.

Jake Gardner, accused of manslaughter for Scurlock’s death, has died by suicide

ETA - Press conference held by Mr. Gardner's attorney following his death. Long, but a strong condemnation of social media and the press for their lying and their rush to judgement.

Jake Gardner, man charged in Scurlock death, has died by suicide

ETAA - From the news conference, Gardner was a decorated Marine Vet with two combat tours in Iraq. 70% disability. Suffered from PTSD.

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Vegan by proxy.

A permanent solution to a temporary problem. Unfortunate . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Very sad to hear.

Suicide is no joke. Remember to take someone seriously if you see any of the signs.

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Freedom isn't free.

What a shame. There never should have been a special prosecutor. The standard for recusal or replacement of an elected prosecutor is very high, and there was nothing I saw about this case that justified a special prosecutor.

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NHI, 10-8.

Very sad ending. Thank you for the update.

While this is terribly tragic, he shouldn't have given up like that, he should have kept on fighting. He may have gone to prison, but at the very least he could have become a symbol of endurance who stood firm against injustice, regardless of the cost. Now he'll just be used as an example by cowards and charlatans in attempt to convince others to just lay down and take it, lest they end up like him. That's no way for a man to be remembered.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I'm really sad to hear this news. An American hero, multiple tours, and, in the end, I think it was chicken **** to call in a special prosecutor to avoid the heat. Unfortunately, our adversarial system of justice requires deep pockets. If he was in fact jumped from behind as the story reports, would be have been found guilty solely to avoid a riot?

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

You can see what 'warning shots' get you. That should be a definitive answer to all that ask, "Should I fire warning shots)

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

This is just wrong.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Sad. Another victim of the toxic culture on social media.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

I was watching Fox News last night and I think it was Tucker talking about this very thing. What was posted on social media about his suicide was very disturbing. Evidently, pushing people to suicide is now a tactic. Very dangerous times in which we live.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Here’s one of many sad parts to a really tragic situation.

In his bar, he had women customers complain about transgender men (dressed like women) using the women’s restroom. His solution was to add a unisex restroom. Female anatomy use the women’s restroom, male anatomy use the men’s restroom, don’t cares use the unisex restroom. You’d think that would accommodate everybody, right? Nope. For doing that he was branded on social media as a homophobic racist.

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Vegan by proxy.

It's just the times we are living in, folks. If a guy thinks he is a female German Shepherd, then by damn, he is one! I can only be glad that I'm almost 75 years old, and don't have too much more time to see my beloved country subjected to this Alice-in-wonderland liberal ****! I feel extremely sorry for my grandchildren to have to be subjected to this craziness.

My mother passed this year (not COVID-related) at age 96. You could have another 20 years if you take care of yourself. BTW, I'm not wild about these times either. My granddaughter, a Marine, is getting married to another Marine in California tomorrow, and we couldn't go due to my wife's health.

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

What a sad, lonely, pitiful life a person must live to care so deeply about garbage posted on social media.