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View Poll Results: Which is better, Old School or New School?
Old School - gutterfighting, point shooting, etc. 24 26.67%
New School - MMA, sighted shooting, etc. 3 3.33%
Either - Either one can get the job done 11 12.22%
Hybrid - Combining elements from each is best 26 28.89%
I don't care...where's the bacon? 11 12.22%
I don't care...where's the bar? 17 18.89%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 09-25-2020, 03:44 PM
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Default Old School vs. New School

I was recently watching some videos on WWII hand-to-hand combat training, and it got me curious...Which is better, Old School or New School? So, I made this poll to get everyone's opinion.

For the purposes of this poll, this will be focused on "software," i.e., training and tactics, rather than "hardware," i.e., guns and weapons.

By Old School, I'm referring to fighting arts that are from the late 19th-early 20th centuries, such as boxing, wrestling, WWII "gutterfighting," point shooting, etc.



By New School, I'm referring to fighting arts that have been developed or popularized in the last 30-40 years, such as BJJ, MMA, Krav Maga, Kali/Escrima, modern shooting techniques (for example, "The Modern Technique" or modern Isoceles stance + sights), etc.



And by "better," I mean which one you think is better suited for today's world.

I'm just curious to see what people think.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:46 PM
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People have been improving on the HTH methods of disabling one another since antiquity. I am sure the process continues.

BTW, is this an open bar we are speaking of?
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:08 PM
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Does the bar have good bourbon and a good-looking guy tending bar that would make me a fabulous Manhattan?
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
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People have been improving on the HTH methods of disabling one another since antiquity. I am sure the process continues.

BTW, is this an open bar we are speaking of?
It's any kind of bar you want.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:32 PM
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Does the bar have good bourbon and a good-looking guy tending bar that would make me a fabulous Manhattan?


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Old 09-25-2020, 05:38 PM
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I am none too picky:

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Old 09-25-2020, 05:40 PM
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I like this bar better...

Old School vs. New School-coyote-ugly-jpg

To the other question...

The newer skills like BJJ seem to be geared towards disabling people by choking them out, dislocating an elbow, etc. as opposed to killing them.

The gutter fighting WWII stuff seemed like a last resort, in combat. How do I kill someone when all I have is my hands.

Boxing and wrestling are martial sports that cross old/new time frames.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:09 PM
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I'm too old for school. See you at the bar.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:11 PM
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Here's a quote I came across. I didn't say it...but I wish I had.

"There is only one way to fight, and that's dirty. Clean gentlemanly fighting will get you nowhere but dead, and fast. Take every cheap shot, every low blow, absolutely kick people when they're down, and maybe you'll be the one who walks away."
-J. Frost
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:13 PM
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Since you're buying, let's discuss this at the bar.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
"There is only one way to fight, and that's dirty. Clean gentlemanly fighting will get you nowhere but dead, and fast. Take every cheap shot, every low blow, absolutely kick people when they're down, and maybe you'll be the one who walks away."
Old teaching, still valid, never forget it, and anything is a weapon.

That said, please note, it takes a great deal of training to be really skilled at martial arts. It is worth it, however, in the event that you wind up in some kind street brawl or fist fight.

But look at it from another angle. In the outside chance you're an average person and get into a hand to hand fight with a trained MMA fighter or, pick whichever you like from the list above or any list, it's a two hit fight. He hits you and you hit the ground. Done and done. So, to be on the safe side, be polite, be nice, and avoid fistfights.

If it's a gunfight just shoot quickly, and often, using whatever style works for you, don't miss, you win. That's why you're carrying that heater is it not?

Okay, now that we're clear, let's get to the bar, I'll have bourbon, and I want to sit with pawngal.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:39 PM
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The great lie of melee combat. If you are calm enough to execute these complex defensive moves, you are calm enough to get your gun up and working. Real melee training. Get out of melee, don't get into melee.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:41 PM
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The guys (and gals) that are too old to fight or run (or never learned how to fight) will just kill you. They don't have many options.

Hand to hand combat will get you hurt quickly and badly. Shoot from a distance.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:45 PM
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I picked 'hybrid', but it really boils down to whatever works in a given situation maybe with no time to have an analysis session.


Standing around with one's thumb in one's butt wondering which technique to use is a good recipe for getting injured or killed.

I'm off to the bar.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:27 PM
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Out of the choices, I chose hybrid.

What are often framed as “newer” H2H skills are actually very old methods that have been rediscovered. MMA competitions are ancient. Pankration being one example.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:51 PM
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Either, or a little bit of both. The very best way to learn is to have a lot
of experience. When I was in college I got a job as a bouncer at a raunchy
club. I would get beat up every weekend, but I learned a lot. Football
players and cowboys are the worst. I was a few years older, because I
had been in the military, and I was sober, so those are advantages. You
also learn to be a pretty good salesman. It is always best to talk the trouble
maker out of the place than to have to throw him out.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:26 PM
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I'll go with the either. I look at it this way. If someone is bent on killing you with their bare hands all bets are off, including rules of any kind. Fighting as dirty as it gets will rule the day...
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:06 PM
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Krav Maga is brutally effective, as is the Gracie style of jiu-jitsu.
A skilled practioner in either is a human wrecking ball.


"Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth"...Mike Tyson
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:29 PM
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It depends.

The old school methods were taught to those that didn’t have time to devote years to learn something more complicated. Those methods worked then as well as now.

Martial arts are fine but only if you devote the time to learn it. And chances are the average person will never need anything more than old school methods.
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Old 09-26-2020, 11:25 AM
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I prefer the time honored run away to fight another day.

Screaming like a girl can have emotional ramifications but is effective.


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Old 09-26-2020, 11:56 AM
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Speak softly and carry a big stick...

In a pinch a sap will work just fine.


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Old 09-26-2020, 12:03 PM
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Thumbs up The VOTE Is.....

THE ONLY CHOICE HERE IS:

Which bourbon? MY vote is for JACK in a highball half-filled with 6 ice-cubes and topped off, stirred not shaken...
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
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THE ONLY CHOICE HERE IS:

Which bourbon? MY vote is for JACK in a highball half-filled with 6 ice-cubes and topped off, stirred not shaken...
I prefer Blanton's neat, but whatever works for you.
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:43 PM
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In a pinch a sap will work just fine.
So, Old School...?
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
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THE ONLY CHOICE HERE IS:

Which bourbon? MY vote is for JACK in a highball half-filled with 6 ice-cubes and topped off, stirred not shaken...
Too many ice cubes.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:44 PM
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unfortunate that expandable batons are illegal to carry, even with a carry permit here in OR. Favorite non lethal tool of a retired state police instructor friend.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
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Too many ice cubes.
And THAT is why I choose a HIGHBALL glass...

Also, I like my ice made from skinny water, just to help me keep my boyish figure...
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:52 PM
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Side bar, no pun intended.

If you are an older guy or lady, carrying a cane can have many rewards, and if you train with it the rewards are expanded. It's a little harder to pull that off if you're young and fit; everyone will know what the "walking stick" is really for.

Now, back to the bar.

Blanton's will do, Old Rip Van Winkle will do, too.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
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unfortunate that expandable batons are illegal to carry, even with a carry permit here in OR. Favorite non lethal tool of a retired state police instructor friend.
I think I still have my old PR-24 around somewhere. Never liked carrying it as IMO, as it used to act to dissuade visually, it just seemed to easy to be grabbed by the BG and make things more difficult (old-school). Much has changed over time.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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If you are an older guy or lady, carrying a cane can have many rewards, and if you train with it the rewards are expanded. It's a little harder to pull that off if you're young and fit; everyone will know what the "walking stick" is really for.
There's always umbrellas.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
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I think I still have my old PR-24 around somewhere. Never liked carrying it as IMO, as it used to act to dissuade visually, it just seemed to easy to be grabbed by the BG and make things more difficult (old-school). Much has changed over time.
When I did security work back in the 90s I went through training and was licensed to carry a side-handle baton. Funny thing was that none of the clients I worked for would let me carry it because they looked too intimidating. Did carry the Handler-12, though. Lower profile, but not as simple to use. I still remember some of my baton training and have practiced it with my umbrella.
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Old 09-26-2020, 05:24 PM
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Fifty or Sixty years ago I was doing an audit of the State Liquor Dispensary.
A few minutes after 5, everyone had cleared out, the
old superintendent called me into his office. Gave me a 5th of Black
Velvet. Said go home, pour some of this in a glass, set down in your
easy chair, and sip it, pretty soon you will be out of this world. I did, and
I was.
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:53 AM
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So, Old School...?
Some things just never go out of style.



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Old 09-27-2020, 09:50 AM
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you forgot the most practical one..."don't walk away from a fight....sprint"
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:05 AM
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you forgot the most practical one..."don't walk away from a fight....sprint"
Of course. But sometimes you have to defend yourself when deadly force isn't justified.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:09 AM
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I recall an incident many years ago where 2 young bucks got into an
argument in a bar, and carried it out to fist city in the parking lot. One
of them got in a good shot and knocked the other one down. Then he
jumped on him, straddled him, and grabbed him around the throat and
started choking him. The one on the bottom had a little pistol in his
pocket. He was able to get it out and shoot the guy on top. There were
a lot of "witnesses" who followed them out to the parking lot, so it was
ruled a justifiable self defense shooting.

I recall another incident many years ago. A man put a dime in the juke
box right at closing time. The bartender pulled the plug on the juke box.
The customer got mad and demanded his dime back. I fight insued.
The customer was getting the best of it. The bartender pulled a little
revolver from under the bar and shot the customer, killing him. The
bartender spent a few years in prison.

So there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting, and a shooting
that is not justifiable. When you have to defend yourself, you never
know whether deadly force will be justified or not.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:25 AM
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One of the best defenses I recall, as a bouncer, was a drunk acting out and
shooting his mouth off one night. I started toward him to escort him to the door.
He fell to the floor and curled up into the fetal position. He showed
up a couple of weekends later and did exactly the same thing. It worked
for him.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
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One of the best defenses I recall, as a bouncer, was a drunk acting out and
shooting his mouth off one night. I started toward him to escort him to the door.
He fell to the floor and curled up into the fetal position. He showed
up a couple of weekends later and did exactly the same thing. It worked
for him.
I don't know about that one. Seems like a good way to get kicked in the head.

One defense I've often heard about is to act crazy, because people don't want to mess with crazy.
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Old 09-29-2020, 10:27 AM
old tanker old tanker is offline
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Best piece of advice I ever got was, "If you ever give some *** your best shot, don't hang around to see how it turns out."
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:26 PM
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I voted “old school” because I’m no spring chicken myself.
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Old 09-30-2020, 08:20 AM
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Of course. But sometimes you have to defend yourself when deadly force isn't justified.
when your age has an 8 as first number, options are very limited.
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Old 09-30-2020, 08:49 AM
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when your age has an 8 as first number, options are very limited.
Justification depends on the circumstances and the individual. Deadly force may not be justified in one situation for me, but may be necessary, and justified, for someone else. We all just have to do the best we can with what we've got.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:49 PM
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Justification depends on the circumstances and the individual. Deadly force may not be justified in one situation for me, but may be necessary, and justified, for someone else. We all just have to do the best we can with what we've got.
When you're too old to take a whuppin' and too fat to run, there aren't many options left but to shoot the bugger.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:56 PM
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THE ONLY CHOICE HERE IS:

Which bourbon? MY vote is for JACK in a highball half-filled with 6 ice-cubes and topped off, stirred not shaken...
Jack Daniel's is a TN whiskey, not a bourbon. For sipping, I like Gentlemen Jack over the standard, but I'll say yes to either.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:12 PM
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Some how I missed the Poll.

Old school for my vote.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:17 PM
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Sticks and stones will break bones, words won't hurt anyone. Use whatever you can get your hands on and cheat the best you can.
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:44 PM
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"Everyone has a plan til they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:18 AM
pawngal pawngal is offline
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Jack Daniel's is a TN whiskey, not a bourbon. For sipping, I like Gentlemen Jack over the standard, but I'll say yes to either.
Technically, Jack Daniels can be considered a bourbon but the company prefers to be called a TN whiskey.
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:45 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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I haven't voted, but I do have a couple of minor points.

First, after decades of experience, I gag every time I hear/read "point shooting". Generally, your chances of hitting a target beyond arms length requires some visual reference of the firearm's alignment with the target. Hard to justify outside a war zone. Prosecutors tend to frown on suppressive fire (OK, that might not have been the intent, but results matter).

Having had to use a cane several times and reaching senior citizen status, I find it curious that all the "stick fighting" videos I've personally seen are done by thirty something dojo rats. What's easy/simple for them may be highly problematic for us old or differently able folks.

Recalling the above reminds me of the fun the older, experienced guys had with the "hands on" technique instructors. Their experience was almost entirely in dojos and with specific "attacks". Maybe if they'd been studying in better dojos? There's a difference between fighting and uh, aggressive ballet.

Last edited by WR Moore; 10-23-2020 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:00 PM
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Some local stuff that's pretty good, you'll need to get at the distillery.

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