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  #51  
Old 10-13-2020, 09:38 AM
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[QUOTE=CAJUNLAWYER;140929366

Caje's advice.... STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM TROUBLE OR SITUATIONS THAT YOU KNOW BETTER. No reason to insert yourself into ANY situation that may call for the use of deadly force. One of the first things asked in these type of situations is why were you (the shooter) even there in the first place-It goes to merde from there. And don't give me any " I won't let those so and so's dictate where I can go" nonsense. Use some common sense[/QUOTE]

Very, very good advice from a lawyer and I liked the price. Larry
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  #52  
Old 10-13-2020, 09:58 AM
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We never solved the shooting in this thread, and we ain't gonna solve this 'un either . . .

A case of self defense or not (long) - Sadly update in Post #36.

Still the best opinion out there by a prosecutor:

Quote:
"The criminal code does not fit well in mass chaos . . . "
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Last edited by Muss Muggins; 10-13-2020 at 09:58 AM. Reason: format
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  #53  
Old 10-13-2020, 10:17 AM
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So far there is only one indisputable fact: The 2A also applies to the shallow end of the gene pool, and these acts do nothing but fuel the politicians determined to stop it by the only means available to them...gun controls. I really could care less about who slapped who, who did what first, etc. All I know is that both of these knuckleheads will be the poster children for the next anti gun initiative...and that ticks me off in a way I cant explain here since it would get me banned.
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  #54  
Old 10-13-2020, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
I haven't seen any other footage.

What did the guy with spray do to deserve death?
He violated the 'don't be stupid' clause of the law of life. He went to an emotionally charged protest carrying chemical spray and a pistol, then got into an angry exchange at arm's length with another armed guy. The other armed guy did the same, and is in jail, so his just desserts are coming. Bad judgement in all of life, including teasing venomous snakes, texting while driving, smoking in a grain elevator, etc., often carries a quick, unexpected death sentence.

Tough excrement to hotheads with guns. Idiots.

Last edited by biku324; 10-13-2020 at 11:50 AM.
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  #55  
Old 10-13-2020, 01:22 PM
scoobysnacker scoobysnacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biku324 View Post
He violated the 'don't be stupid' clause of the law of life. He went to an emotionally charged protest carrying chemical spray and a pistol, then got into an angry exchange at arm's length with another armed guy. The other armed guy did the same, and is in jail, so his just desserts are coming. Bad judgement in all of life, including teasing venomous snakes, texting while driving, smoking in a grain elevator, etc., often carries a quick, unexpected death sentence.

Tough excrement to hotheads with guns. Idiots.
I see where you are coming from, but I'm going to disagree on the "deserving" part for the victim.

This was a "pro-" rally for him, he wasn't going to an "anti-" rally to SEEK confrontation with a group.
Like the guy on the news said last night (John Tiegen), this was a group of vets wanting to counter the presence of BLM/Antifa, and apparently the event itself was peaceful (haven't heard anything to the contrary, which surely would have been on the news by now).
The event was over, and he was in a group leaving the event, returning to their cars. Like fans leaving a stadium after a game.

His group was accosted by a small group (gunman, agitator, and media) for the sole purpose of provoking conflict. There are other videos, the agitator is screaming and cursing, and threatening and posturing. And the media members are right there, getting closeups of that. Also consider, this small group has multiple social media evidence that indicates they aren't "neutral", that the gunman and the media involved are strongly sympathetic to the "other side", and opposed to the group the victim was with.

They were attempting to provoke conflict for the sole purpose of creating it. Moments before the shooting the agitator was shouting "f--- around and find out", and he even looked in the gunman's direction as he said it.
They succeeded in angering this man, he responded towards the other members of the group in a non-lethal way, and he was shot and killed.

His "stupid actions"; I suppose you can include him going to a rally, but come on now. There are multiple "rallies" going on around the country, shouting hate towards the government and police, devolving into riots and looting. That side's consequences are commercials advertising their side on NFL games etc.
The other side wants to show they are present too, that not everyone wants total lawlessness and chaos. It might seem a high risk situation, but sometimes people think there are causes worth supporting.

I absolutely agree that walking around with pepper spray was stupid. Not only was it unnecessarily drawing attention, for practical purposes, it was ineffective (as illustrated by the outcome).
It showed he lacked the awareness of what he was facing. I think we all can learn from that, and process it...

He approached the media, thinking they were either neutral in position, or that the opposing side would not use deadly force. He was wrong. We should take away- do not engage anyone without seeing them as potentially hostile, even if they're wearing a "press" jacket. Because that's his move, and it got him killed.
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  #56  
Old 10-13-2020, 01:35 PM
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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  #57  
Old 10-13-2020, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
I see where you are coming from, but I'm going to disagree on the "deserving" part for the victim.

This was a "pro-" rally for him, he wasn't going to an "anti-" rally to SEEK confrontation with a group.
Like the guy on the news said last night (John Tiegen), this was a group of vets wanting to counter the presence of BLM/Antifa, and apparently the event itself was peaceful (haven't heard anything to the contrary, which surely would have been on the news by now).
The event was over, and he was in a group leaving the event, returning to their cars. Like fans leaving a stadium after a game.

His group was accosted by a small group (gunman, agitator, and media) for the sole purpose of provoking conflict. There are other videos, the agitator is screaming and cursing, and threatening and posturing. And the media members are right there, getting closeups of that. Also consider, this small group has multiple social media evidence that indicates they aren't "neutral", that the gunman and the media involved are strongly sympathetic to the "other side", and opposed to the group the victim was with.

They were attempting to provoke conflict for the sole purpose of creating it. Moments before the shooting the agitator was shouting "f--- around and find out", and he even looked in the gunman's direction as he said it.
They succeeded in angering this man, he responded
towards the other members of the group in a non-lethal way, and he was shot and killed.

His "stupid actions"; I suppose you can include him going to a rally, but come on now. There are multiple "rallies" going on around the country, shouting hate towards the government and police, devolving into riots and looting. That side's consequences are commercials advertising their side on NFL games etc.
The other side wants to show they are present too, that not everyone wants total lawlessness and chaos. It might seem a high risk situation, but sometimes people think there are causes worth supporting.

I absolutely agree that walking around with pepper spray was stupid. Not only was it unnecessarily drawing attention, for practical purposes, it was ineffective (as illustrated by the outcome).
It showed he lacked the awareness of what he was facing. I think we all can learn from that, and process it...

He approached the media, thinking they were either neutral in position, or that the opposing side would not use deadly force. He was wrong. We should take away- do not engage anyone without seeing them as potentially hostile, even if they're wearing a "press" jacket. Because that's his move, and it got him killed.
Pepper spray and a concealed handgun. If someone is trying to provoke, walk away. It's really that simple.

We're all making choices.

Last edited by biku324; 10-13-2020 at 04:15 PM.
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  #58  
Old 10-13-2020, 05:17 PM
Injunbro Injunbro is offline
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It seems there were a bunch of mistakes made:
1. Don't take pictures of people w/out permission.
2. Don't wave pepper spray around, like a gun don't draw it until you need it.
3. Don't play bodyguard unless you're prepared to face the consequences.
4. Don't touch people you aren't friends w/.
5. If you hit/slap/punch/push/strike others be prepared for them to defend themselves.
Conclusion: If you get involved in stupid activities w/ stupid people stupid things will happen & no one will like the results.
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  #59  
Old 10-13-2020, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
I see where you are coming from, but I'm going to disagree on the "deserving" part for the victim.

This was a "pro-" rally for him, he wasn't going to an "anti-" rally to SEEK confrontation with a group.
Like the guy on the news said last night (John Tiegen), this was a group of vets wanting to counter the presence of BLM/Antifa, and apparently the event itself was peaceful (haven't heard anything to the contrary, which surely would have been on the news by now).
The event was over, and he was in a group leaving the event, returning to their cars. Like fans leaving a stadium after a game.

His group was accosted by a small group (gunman, agitator, and media) for the sole purpose of provoking conflict. There are other videos, the agitator is screaming and cursing, and threatening and posturing. And the media members are right there, getting closeups of that. Also consider, this small group has multiple social media evidence that indicates they aren't "neutral", that the gunman and the media involved are strongly sympathetic to the "other side", and opposed to the group the victim was with.

They were attempting to provoke conflict for the sole purpose of creating it. Moments before the shooting the agitator was shouting "f--- around and find out", and he even looked in the gunman's direction as he said it.
They succeeded in angering this man, he responded towards the other members of the group in a non-lethal way, and he was shot and killed.

His "stupid actions"; I suppose you can include him going to a rally, but come on now. There are multiple "rallies" going on around the country, shouting hate towards the government and police, devolving into riots and looting. That side's consequences are commercials advertising their side on NFL games etc.
The other side wants to show they are present too, that not everyone wants total lawlessness and chaos. It might seem a high risk situation, but sometimes people think there are causes worth supporting.

I absolutely agree that walking around with pepper spray was stupid. Not only was it unnecessarily drawing attention, for practical purposes, it was ineffective (as illustrated by the outcome).
It showed he lacked the awareness of what he was facing. I think we all can learn from that, and process it...

He approached the media, thinking they were either neutral in position, or that the opposing side would not use deadly force. He was wrong. We should take away- do not engage anyone without seeing them as potentially hostile, even if they're wearing a "press" jacket. Because that's his move, and it got him killed.
Well. he "countered the presence of blm/antifa"....and it cost him his life.
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  #60  
Old 10-13-2020, 11:23 PM
scoobysnacker scoobysnacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodan View Post
The victim had a handgun in a shoulder holster on his left side, and it appears the shooter was reaching for that or the pepper spray when slapped. In either case, the shooter made physical contact with the victim (with no lawful authority to do so) and that resulted in the slap.

It's becoming more and more clear that at least four people were involved (shooter, reporter, agitator and photographer) in an organized operation intended to create news by instigating a confrontation and filming the result. I sincerely hope the Denver PD is pursuing a thorough investigation.

From a personal defense standpoint, it's apparent that attending these type of events is extremely dangerous and you shouldn't make any assumption about where the threat is coming from. This was a pro-police rally, and the police were only yards away from where this occurred.

We can criticize the victim in this, but who would have expected to by murdered by 'the Press'?

Be careful folks. The rules we play by are not being observed by the other team.
This.

I get that the victim made a lot of tactical mistakes. Don't roll around with pepper spray in your hand, attracting unwanted attention.
If someone reaches for your gun, that's the moment you need to also.
Don't assume you are safe because you are with others, and/or at an event you support.

I know a lot say "don't be out there". I get that, I don't want to go out into something like that. But heck, things like that are springing up all over, and most are NOT friendly to the average poster here (let's leave it at that).
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  #61  
Old 10-13-2020, 11:33 PM
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If you must go, don't go armed, don't go angry, and don't engage with folks who only want trouble. If it quickly turns ugly, leave like your life depends on it - it may.
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