So who is it that will decide when a person understands what you want them to understand? Will it be some fellow that believes the world hasn't changed since the first half of the last century?

Exactly. Unfortunately a goodly number of people equate their preferences with "the way things should be". Hence the problem.

Rights, being rights, should by their nature be unrestricted. Hence my opposition to the NFA, GCA , Red Flag, CC permits, location restrictions etc.

Privileges are permissive; therefore they are restrictable. E.g driver's licenses, vehicle insurance requirements etc.

I'll take "dangerous liberty" over "servile safety" any day.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Yup. There are also those that would prohibit free expression of opinion, or the freedom to associate with whom they choose, or to exercise their chosen religion.

Thank God for the Constitution . . . All of it.

Damifikno. Frankly, we shooters as well as the firearms and retail industry could do a much better job of mentoring new shooters and focusing on what happens after shootings to you, your family, your finances, etc. Ensuring folks know 'self-defense' is not a sport that requires one to buy, buy, buy would be helpful.

I'm not interested in trying to make up laws or systems.

Well, you are entitled to YOUR OPINION. I disagree completely!!

AMEN!!!!!!!!

Just because something has been accepted as Constitutional does not mean it is, imo. Clearly, the courts are biased and political.

Shall not be infringed means shall not be infringed in my Constitutional conservative view, some “gun owners” can think whatever they like.

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Sure you did

Another thing about "Requirements"

My main concern is who gets to set those "requirements" It may well start out well intended and simple, it will never sty that was. Those who oppose our right to bear arms would and in places do use such things as a club.

Its like laws to keep your guns locked up etc, it never ends simply or do such laws always get interpreted in the manner in which intended.

A state passes a "simple" law that all gun transfers have to go through an FFL with the "ideal" that it will prevent criminals from buying guns.

The next think you know a liberal Attorney General interprets this and Bob can't lend Frank his shot gun to go duck hunting.

In the “Street Survival” movement in LE, we believe we should learn from other people’s mistakes so we don’t repeat them. We are all born with the right to keep and bear arms and IMHO any law that interferes with that right (for a law-abiding citizen) is unjust. The Bill of Rights says what it means and means what it says. Nonetheless, some people for whatever reason don’t have it in them to shoot another person.

Carrying a firearm for protection is a personal decision and (IMHO) everyone should do some soul-searching before deciding to CCW. Bad guys are really good at deciding who’s bluffing.

BTW, the Constitution does not grant anyone the Right to Bear Arms

The Constitution establishes that this is an existing human right that is not to be infringed upon. In fact the Constitution does very little in the way of "Granting People Rights"

The Constitution is much more of a document that states what the government is allowed to do and less about just what the people are allowed. Plus, many of the governmental restrictions in the US Constitution are only restrictions on the Federal government. Anything NOT established in the Constitution is reserved for the States or the People. In other words a state is still able to mess some stuff up if the people of that state allow it.

Bill of Rights, Amentment10.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people

The 14th Amendment and subsequent SCOTUS rulings changed that (as Constitution applies to states and 2A applies to states).

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Vegan by proxy.

Actually that is not completely true. It does make everyone a citizen of the US, and grant all the citizens protection under the Constitution

But, it does not prohibit States or the People from making laws that were NOT restricted by the constitution, which is what the 10th is about.

That’s correct. People keep bringing up laws imposed by the states and say “look, your rights can be infringed”.

Read the Constitution, know what it says and how it is supposed to work.

We have strayed way too far.

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Sure you did

Liberal vs Conservative

I am a conservative in that I take a very conservative view when reading and interpreting the US Constitution and Amendments. To me it says what it says and things like the Federalist papers pretty well establish the legislative intent of the Framers.

A liberal takes a liberal view of the meaning of these Documents. These days both "conservatives" and "liberals" are taking a very liberal view to support their positions. Those that take the "Living Document" view being the worst of the lot.

Prior to the 14th, the Constitution only applied to the feds, not the states. Unless you’re considering the Bill of Rights separate from the Constitution, it specifically recognizes rights of the people. Free Speech. Freedon to Peaceably Assemble. Freedom of Worship. Right of People to be Secure in their Households. Freedom from Double Jeopardy. Yada yada. Those are all rights recognized in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights are amendments to the Constitution, so became part of the Constitution.

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Vegan by proxy.

The Constitution is brilliant in that it provides a means of changing it, called an Amendment.

The Living, Breathing Document folks know they cannot change the Constitution right now by amending it, they simply do not have the votes required.

What they do have are willing judges.

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Sure you did

It'll be interesting in the days ahead, should the edict come down from D.C. to see how many here will be lined up to register/turn in their AR's, AK's, and hi-cap auto loading pistols. Then, come to these pages, thumping themselves on the chest as to how they, "did the right thing," and roundly condemn anyone who doesn't comply. No, it's not off topic. It's all under the same umbrella.

"I was just following orders"

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

All the constitutional stuff aside, nothing in the news report indicated that the Pastor or anyone in that church was in imminent risk of bodily harm. It says the Pastor found the perp hiding in the bathroom, and nothing in that news report indicates that the pastor couldn't...or shouldn't...have just walked away and summoned the police that were actively looking for the guy. A very unfortunate and tragic event, and likely very preventable.

Hear HEAR! Well said!
If the pastor was not prepared to shoot the guy he should not have pulled a gun on him. If the guy wasn't presenting an immediate unavoidable threat, retreat and call the cops.
Discretion is the better part of valor and live to fight another day...

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

^^^Yes! What they said!

I agree with that, If one draws their firearm in self-defense of themselves or others (imminent danger) they had better have the guts to pull the trigger! or don't carry at all. The good pastor armed a thug who went on to cause more harm.

The good pastor made a serious mistake. Yet, I still believe he had every right in the world to have and carry a gun. Good intentions and doing what you believe is right isn't always going to work out even if it is legal. Thats a fact of life. May he Rest in Peace having gone out believing he was "doing the right thing"

Oh, and all the training and education in the world will not fix stop all the problems. There are lots of educated idiots and I would not expect gun training to have a different result.

Almost every one who hunts at this point has had to pass a Hunters Education Class. There is still an abundance of unsafe, idiot and or unethical hunters.

You didn't explain why. You cited a story where a good guy lost a fight.

Do you have facts that he refused to fire when he should have?

Do you have facts that he failed in some other way?

Or does the fact that he lost the fight and was shot with his own weapon the only reason that he doesn't gain the privilege of you "favoring" him exercising his rights?

If you have facts, I'd love to hear them. De-briefing incidents is always helpful.

The NEWS REPORT?

I read you guys all 5X5 now.

The news report...

What do you have that is in opposition to the news report(s) . . . ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It is true, most that carry arent skilled nor have they mentally prepared for a potential shooting. Why we train, practice repeat.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

[quote=double-dipper;141019380][quote=biku324
I agree with that, If one draws their firearm in self-defense of themselves or others (imminent danger) they had better have the guts to pull the trigger! or don't carry at all. The good pastor armed a thug who went on to cause more harm.[/quote]

Its not a matter of guts but mental prep. If the good pastor had never killed anything larger than a fly, doing so at an instant would cause one to pause. The pause cost him. It happens more than you would think but does happen.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I really do think that sums it up.

Besides, there is a reason that "brandishing" a firearm is a crime in most places. It scares the kiddies and can get the "brandisher" killed.

I have to quote Tuco every time:

If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

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Come and take it!!

Very much like a knife fight. You have to go into it understanding you WILL get cut. Without that, you will surely lose.

Drawing your pistol and hoping the other won't shoot is NOT a winning strategy.

It doesn't matter if the guy was a pastor or a porter. The facts: he pulled a firearm and couldn't and/or wouldn't and didn't use it and paid with his life. The end. Literally and figuratively.

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Thread Killer.

I personally will shoot to kill, that is an abrupt way to put it, but I will bust a cap in an attacker.

I read about this preacher getting killed and immediately thought "he wasn't ready to use it and the bad guy could tell."

Massad Ayoob wrote about that in one or the other of the two books of his I have.

Several years ago in a local store parking lot a preacher came upon a man strangling his estranged lover. He drew and fired a warning shot into the air. The attacker then tackled the preacher and I'm not sure what happened next. Anyway the attacker was arrested and the preacher was hailed as a hero but he's very lucky he wasn't murdered, along with the x-lover, and whoever else with his own gun.

About a year ago a deranged man assaulted me in a place I could not escape from (high porch). Had I first drawn my firearm he would have forced me to shoot. I have no doubt of that. Fortunately for the both of us I have carried pepper spray as part of the daily loadout since 2012 and deployed it first.

Had drawn then, I'd have been forced to fire. It's that simple.

Fortunately, I had put some degree of thought into such situations and was prepared for it. I had read on another forum about that sort of reaction "JUST SHOOT ME!" and I planned ahead.

I did end up drawing, as the pepper spray was slow to act, but once it kicked in and the attacker began his retreat, I reholstered. That sequence of events made a very good impression on responding police, who I called once I got to a safe location.

One even complimented me on the 638 saying he "carried that for backup."

I learned many many years ago (and was taught) you NEVER pull a gun unless you are Prepared to USE IT! That decision HAS to be made BEFORE you even start to carry a gun as otherwise you are putting not only your life but those around you in danger. I'm 71 years old now and faced that choice in real life, so before you carry a gun make sure YOU can use it on a fellow human being BEFORE the situation arises! Think long, hard, soul search, do what ever you have to do but make up make up your mind beforehand NOT when you are in a life and death situation! I can still hear the first time I heard the sonic crack of bullets passing by me right before my platoon Sgt. tackled me telling me "you dumb Lt. they are shooting at you." I was 21 and I will carry that memory to my grave. I was standing there green as grass trying to figure out what that weird sound was as the bullets were breaking the sound barrier around me before the rifle reports reached us. Killing another human being is not a video game and what bullets do to human flesh you will never forget. Make up your mind before a situation confronts you!

Later back in the states two men late at night tried to rob me threatening to kill me. Wrong move.

I actually thought there had been a wooden stake driven through the heart of this zombie thread...

Probably should have been!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

33 days old is the new standard for a zombie thread?

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Sure you did

It is if you disagree with the consensus . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

When I start a post that I wish to get out of, I want it to go away also.

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Sure you did

Maybe ask the moderators to take it down since it is continuing to haunt us.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I would ask a favor of every one here. take just a moment and search "officer shot with own gun". look at the results. are we not in "favor" of these people carrying a gun? Are we going to assume that these people where untrained, unwilling to pull the trigger. are we making a giant leap of faith (pun intended) that this man because he was a pastor was all about turn the other cheek so maybe should not have had the ability to defend himself. i wish i was as awesome as it would appear that some here think we should be. God Bless

An opinion has been stated, discussion of same and contrary opinions made, and thread closed.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220