Civilian shoot outs with cover? If you are defending your life after a few shots either you will be running or the bad guy will.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Threads like this always bring out the "what if" and "yeah but" brigade in force. The same bunch that eschews revolvers will do the same to any who choose a single stack auto or who don't carry X number of spare mags. I carried an M-16, basic load, and a 1911 BUG when I was in-country, but that was a world away, a long time ago. I don't have to run toward the gunfire any more. If my Shield 45 and one spare mag turn out not to be enough, all the brigade members here can say a collective, "I told you so." Till then, have a nice day.

Actually I like and love both the big bore revolver and big bore autos. As soon as I get another CCW I for one plan to carry both because as I say they both have their strong and week points.

When I had my CCW before I carried a 13 shot .45 ACP and I would add to that now a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" .44 Mag. loaded with .44 Special +P ammo. Being the size I am I can conceal both on my frame. Why some people have to get so nasty in their comments reflects on their own insecurities in my humble opinion. There have been stopping fails from all calibers of guns used by police including the 12 gauge shotgun and all handgun calibers including the vaunted current rage of 9MM hollow points. Maybe you need to carry a 100 rounds as you never know when you might run in to one of Jimmy Carter's vicious bunny rabbits.

Unless cell phone stores in Texas are a LOT larger than ours (I know, everything in Texas is) I think anyone in the store will be lucky to survive 35 rounds of your running fire.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

If you consider the comment you quoted nasty, I may be missing something or you may be a bit thin skinned. And 100% agreed on stopping failures, that's why I'd rather have more chances for far less size, weight, and follow up shot time.

This is an example of the certainty that can get us in trouble. How do you know those are the only two possibilities? Can you bet your life on it? What if events quickly prove you wrong? What if there are three bad guys and nobody's running, and you have nowhere to run? What if you're hit, unable to run, but still in the fight? What if you get five solid hits on the bad guy, but he keeps on fighting?

Everybody assumes it'll be settled in 3 or 4 rounds. Real situations say otherwise.

Calling people here, "We're on a forum populated by us revolver loving luddites" is not my idea of being cordial or friendly.

For me a big bore carry gun would be my Glock 29. For whatever reason, I'm dead nuts accurate with the first shot with that gun. And the recoil doesn't preclude a fast 2nd shot. That's leaves me with 9 more just in case.

Well "us" is inclusive of the writer, in this case me, so I'd call it friendly if a bit self deprecating.

Waffles some of us unfortunate Americans live in the Peoples Socialist Republic of California where we do not even have the RIGHT to self defense under the California State Constitution. For the last six years after I made the stupid mistake of agreeing to relocate here, I have been trying to convince my wife to move just across the border into Arizona. She is almost there because her liberal daughter-in-law so limits her access to her grandchildren she is about fed up. Maybe then we can get the girls to come visit for a week or two at a time she is thinking. It would be nice to live in a Free State again away from the stares and dirty looks we get here when we go into a gun store.

If I took your post wrong then I apologize. I have been bashed on this forum so often I am a little sensitive.

I am a "nonconformist" that thinks way outside the box and have always been that way. That is one of the reasons I was picked when I was in a 1200 man ROTC cadet corp. to be part of the first "Counter Insurgency Unit" set up and run by a Special Forces cadre on our campus which led to me getting one of the only two full Army scholarships awarded each year. I am not a strictly by the book person as I think the bad guys may have "studied the book" tactics and I don't want to be patternable. I was sneaky as a young man but as I have grown older I became devious due to more detailed planning and thought. That part of my nature bothers some people because I do not trust people until they prove themselves worthy of trust because so many have failed to do so.

Ban states were addressed in a couple of my posts. I came from CT, a ban state, to Colorado, a lesser ban state. As per an earlier post in this thread, I'd still say 4-5 extra rounds matters, but you are right that it's less of a difference.

CA sucks for guns, but there is a lot of great stuff to do there otherwise. Just wish it was a little chiller on the guns as CO is heading your way sadly.

Fastest shooter EVER, Jerry Miculek- World record 8 shots in 1 second & 12 shot reload! HD - YouTube
Get some lol

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I lived in Casper, Wyoming for ten years. You could carry a gun anywhere back then except in the city limits as long as it was not concealed. It was considered "disturbing the peace if you did." I wore a Ruger Redhawk 5.5" .44 Magnum on my right hip and never had any problem from anyone including law enforcement. It was on the passenger's seat going out of town so it was not concealed. I loved living in Wyoming! Great hunting and fishing.

I lived in Texas for about the same time but that was before they finally got CCW for handguns. Back then a handgun was considered a prohibited weapon for carry purposes. My first wife back then was a Sheriff's Deputy and I carried a "legal short 12ga. shotgun" that all the local deputies knew I carried as well as the local police. Man the stories that got started because people would call 911 to report me but the dispatchers all knew me so the callers were all assured it was alright, they knew who I was and it was legal for me to carry the gun.

It saved my life one night from two robbers. Thank God for Texas!

The reason I am interested in and plan to purchase a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" .44 Mag. revolver is due to my specific living situation. I can carry it in my apartment easily here in CA in case of home invasion. I can load it with ammo that will keep those in the apartments around me safe while at the same time delivering devastating damage to an attacker. If and when I move/travel with it out of state and the need should arise for defense for anything up to a bear. There are loads for that. I am not going to go into specific details so as not to offend the weak of heart and/or constitution. If you would like specific info. contact me personally.

The number of kids actually killed in airsoft shot outs. ZERO
Their understanding of a TRUE LIFE AND DEATH gunfight ZERO

When you try to use suppressive fire and run out of ammo with your 17 shot wonder 9 I will not speak at your funeral.

Ever play? It's not a complete training regimen, but it's the only way to gain experience on a two way shooting range without risking your life. It hurts just bad enough to make you instinctively cautious. You learn more in one day than you will ever learn from other sources, because none of those can simulate an environment where people are trying to "kill" you. It's the best training money can't buy.


What will I do when my wonder 9 runs out? Slam in another mag and keep going! With any luck I won't need a eulogy.

We bothered to examine our firearms training in light of actual shootings on a continual basis through the 80s and 90s, then even more formally since in the NMSP. What we found is that officers under stress will revert to how they were trained the most extensively and/or the most recently.

We applied what we learned by adding critical new things all the time - in example, with revolvers we stopped allowing officers to empty spent brass into their hands during qualifications, we purchased better holsters, abandoned the PPC for more realistic in-service qualifications and trainings, and started teaching revolver, shotgun, rifle, and semi-auto pistol shooters to 'top off' fired weapons as quickly as reasonable, to load shotguns from the bottom with the muzzle downrange and a round in the chamber, and on and on.

Again, we did this because we found from actual shootings that officers under stress usually performed weapons tasks exactly as trained the most and the most recently.

Why yes in fact I have done the paint ball thing and guess what hits count not number of rounds fired. Fire power is fine. Accuracy is FINAL. You see accounts with high number of rounds fired to no effect' YOUR type of responce. You also see dead guys after low round counts. My planned response.

Here is a FIRE POWER story for you as told to me by a Marine Sgt. who had been in several REAL fire fights and had the chest salad to prove it. When he was a L/cpl he said he was on a platoon sized patrol when a VC broke from cover on the edge of a rice patty and ran for the other bank. The whole platoon of over 30 some odd guys opened up on him, with some full auto M16s and a couple M60 belt feds, the guy made it up and over because as the Sgt said "NOBODY actual stopped to just aim and shoot the guy". I always remember that. You should too.

I never play . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Duly Noted

Your phone store shootout scenario has me thinking maybe I should carry a hand grenade in addition to my trusty .38 spl sixshooter.

Frankly, the scenario I more often imagine is being accosted by a bad guy(s) looking to rob or beat me, etc. I don't envision them coming at me guns blazing. As a civilian, mind-my-own-beeswax kinda guy, I think my being involved in a shootout is about as likely as being hit by space junk.

In your phone store scenario, I'd be doing my best to look as as unthreatening as possible, following directions, etc., while hoping/waiting to get the drop on the bad guys. Probably wouldn't make a move unless killing began. At that point, I hope my nerve would hold so that I'd be able to aim and fire deliberately. Fortunately, I am pretty sure I'll never need to find out.

That's what I think I'd do, too. Don't draw attention, and if you do have to shoot, be a surprise. You'll never see me open carrying, or wearing any clothing that says "second amendment" or anything having to do with guns.



But this happens all the time in the big city. Life is cheap.

Well I'm an old fart that leans toward the Jim Cirillo way of thinking as he states in his book "Tales of the Stakeout Squad." "Oh," "I don't put too much emphasis on the reload, because when my first gun goes out, I go to the second one, and when that goes out i go to the third gun, and when that goes out ..."

So Massad coined the term "the New York reload."

As we get older and wiser we often get more devious as I believe Jim Cirillo did. I for one believe in carrying more than one gun (and type of gun) because things happen and it is always better to be prepared for eventualities when they do. I as some others do believe in carrying knives and being prepared for close in combatives. Be safe and be prepared.

The point is being prepared; for those that may miss it as Jim Cirillo was one of the most prepared both physically and mentally for a gunfight of any person on earth.

I will walk a mile out of my way to avoid a fight however I am prepared for one if forced upon me.

We should all be that way.

Typed a response.

Going to hold off and see tomorrow if I still want to post it.

and I live in a town of 6000 that has had 2 murders in the last 20 years. My state has less murders in a year than Chicago has on a weekend. Maybe you don't need a wonder 9 with 20 rounds, but a U haul truck.

While you have some valid points I'll take exception with two:

5. Load your big bore revolver with dummies
Challenge someone with an airsoft pistol to a fight. You will be humbled, and you will go out and buy a double stack plastic gun.

Your airsoft hero isn't going to kill or injure an innocent with his high volume of missed shots. Real bullets will and are not limited to the confines of a store or immediate area.

7. Nobody in the civilian nor LEO world understands the concept of suppression fire:

Yes, actually they do and there's a reason it's not advocated. In your cell phone store scenario suppression fire is nothing more than high volume misplaced shots that are a danger to customers, staff and bystanders.



Tom Givens' students have overwhelmingly prevailed in their encounters and provide perhaps the best data sample of well documented citizen use of force incidents.

IDK. Around here, that's how they do it. Lately, gangs have been targeting Walgreen stores and stealing all the cigarettes. They come up out of St. Louis and hit the smaller towns.

Well i've been called a lot worse. Just this morning. By my wife as a matter of fact.

I don't accept this premise or it's relevance. "Suppression fire" is not a thing in the civilian world. We are all trained to know what our target is and what's behind it (one of the most basic rules of gun safety) and frankly nobody carries enough ammo to actually do it. The kid with the airsoft gun and a thousand rounds of ammo doesn't play by the same rules or even remotely in the same situation.

If God Forbid you hit and kill a bystander while laying down "suppression fire" just exactly what is your excuse going to be? And frankly, any excuse you could possibly come up with is going to look very bad in court (especially a CIVIL court, when you get sued...). Defensive use of gunfire is solely for the purpose of stopping the incident (i.e. - hitting and/or killing the other guy). In the civilian world, nothing else comes into play.

If three armed thugs come into the store where you are with drawn weapons and firing warning shots, regardless of how many rounds you have in your magazine you are already outgunned - and they beat you to the draw!

My wife now is my second marriage. She was the first woman in Colorado to command a full wing of the men's prison at Buena Vista, Colorado. I say yes Honey and Yes Dear to her because a happy wife means a happy life and I know what's good for me. My momma didn't raise no fool.

I'll let others worry about taking on multiple assailants. It ain't my job anymore, and now that I'm retired, I don't make a habit of placing myself in harm's way. Situational awareness is my friend. I can choose from a variety of firearms, and I'm most often satisfied with revolvers for carry in my neck of the wood. A snubby 66, or 642 usually suits my needs for around town and working outside; however, when traveling, I usually carry a single stack, and a couple of extra mags. If you live in a high crime area, carry whatever is appropriate that meets local law, but the idea of needing more firepower for putting down suppressive fire in a civilian defensive encounter is a bit of a stretch of imagination IMO. In the real world, you're held accountable for every round you fire.

Actually, Jim Cirillo's partner, Bill Allard, got into more gunfights than Jim. A highly competent bullseye shooter (National Civilian Champ, 1982), he pushed accuracy over "suppression fire". Allard, typical New York City copper, had a big gut and loved his pasta. He was the firearms instructor for the stakeout squad and hand-picked every new member. All prospective new tryouts had to qualify one-handed on the old Police L qual course (slightly modified National Match course). I wouldn't want Bill shooting at me (even in a cell phone store). Typical stake out squad gunfights began with a cut-down Ithaca 12 ga, then went to sidearms (Allard used an accurized GI National Match .45, then went to his city .38). Allard has the distinction of never missing any suspect(s) with any of the rounds fired at them. Very interesting guy to talk to.
Bob

Have been in exactly one shooting in my life. Blundered up on a drug deal. They went to shooting and my feet went to running... dragging me with them! It was suppressive fire ... because just as soon as my feet got me behind some drain pipe, they stopped shooting and roared off in a car ... and I stopped having any interest in hitting the key station with the time clock I was carrying. Interestingly ... my supervisor never asked if I was okay. Guess that was life as a security guard in 1980 New Orleans. Nowadays ... I just keep a Sig 226 at hand. I figure it'll handle 99.44 % of any two legged problems I might encounter. And, any of my .357's will do the job if they are the first thing I get in my hands. Very much doubt that I'll ever need a bunch of rounds because I just don't think crooks of today have any more bones than they've ever had. Once the lead starts flying, they'll beat it just as fast as their feet will carry them. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

I never saw stats that good in viewing decades of NYPD Firearms Discharge Reports. Nor the stats of a number of other departments. Usually somewhere between maybe 10% and mid to high 20%. Source?

Both true. In case one, best to have noticed cues and departed prior to start of the festivities.

Piggy backing on the comments of biku324 above.....decades ago the Ohio state training facility (OPOTA) trained exclusively Weaver stance. Then they studied the video of several thousand trainees going through their fiendish shoot house. They discovered that:

1. Under 4 yards range everyone shot one handed.

2. Over 4 yards range most everyone shot isosceles.

OPOTA changed their training to reflect reality. That actually brought the stance into better utilization of body armor too. Knew a couple of departments that changed stance based upon that alone.

For civilian self-defense, it’s probably as relevant as any other handgun, if you decide they best meet your perceived needs. There’s pros and cons to any weapon, so it’s a matter of analyzing the context properly to determine what the best choice is for the circumstances as well as the specific individual. There’s no universally single best choice for everyone and every situation.

To me, revolvers in general, offer more advantages in most civilian encounters than do autoloaders. Primarily reliability, especially in the most crucial first 1-3 shots, as well as functionally in close-quarter situations. Capacity is relatively limited, but I have yet to see any substantial evidence where capacity is ever much of an issue in civilian self-defense. I acknowledge it potentially could be, but the odds are exceedingly low. I’ll focus on what’s most likely and take my chances that I won’t be involved in an outlier to gain the overall reliability advantages a revolver offers in higher probability events. Reloads seem to be a nonexistent concern, since they just don’t occur in civilian encounters except in the rarest of conditions.

My goal as an civilian is to avoid trouble and break contact whenever possible, so what occurs during some police incidents and military operations isn’t all that relevant. “Shoot-outs” aren’t really much of a concern, since there is little incentive for any criminal to press an attack against a random armed civilian, unlike a pursuing LEO, where the stakes are very high.

Force-on-force training can be useful or it can complete nonsense. It’s still just a simulation and the limitations have to be understand and how they relate to actual scenarios. It’s very easy to draw false conclusions. It’s like putting on heavy protective gear and engaging in an H2H drill and deciding that strikes are virtually irrelevant based on what unfolded during the simulation.

Everyone ultimately has to decide for themselves. I own both revolvers and autoloaders, and both have specific roles for me. If I have to chose one, I’ll pick a revolver. People see pretty much only autoloaders in movies, TV, in the hands of cops and soldiers and determine revolvers must be obsolete, but never consider the contextual differences.

The SOU officers were allowed to use what ever pistols they chose as back-ups "if" the issue .38 Specials were either empty, out of service, or otherwise not available for service. Bill Allard as well as a number of others chose to carry .45 autos. I also carry a Springfield Armory XD .45 ACP Auto, a S&W .45 ACP revolver, and plan to purchase and carry a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" .44 Magnum (often loaded with +P .44 Special self-defense loads or lower velocity .44 Magnum self-defense loads.)

A lot can be learned from all the shootouts that the SOU were involved in as with the firearms as well as the ammo they used. We do not have to re-invent the wheel or the bullet every generation.

Since I was personal friends with Allard (as well as Cirillo) and interviewed him extensively for more than one article, I have a pretty good idea of the NYPD firearms policy regarding SOU/stakeout squad weapons. Members were given wide latitude in weapon selection; all non-standard weapons were listed as "back-ups". There was nothing in NYPD policy that stated that an officer had to use a duty .38 (or anything else) first. Allard always went to the 1911 immediately (after the shotgun). If he could, he reloaded. Nobody but Allard carried a .45; most all the other members liked Brownings with ball ammo because of the high magazine capacity. Bill liked his Colt GI National Match because he shot it a lot competitively, trusted it and knew it very well. Allard had Norma .45 hollowpoints in his Colt, which he said worked "most of the time". Cirillo preferred his M10 S&W and a Colt Detective Special. Majority of cases the shotgun did the dirty work. There were more than a couple of shootouts involving just handguns, though. Cirillo got into one at a supermarket checkout counter with a female hostage. It's been talked about in print many times.

Sorry for the thread drift.
Bob

This topic, like may others, permeates gun forums far and wide.

I carry either a five shot j-frame or a 8+1 9mm Defender at appendix.

Will it be enough? I hope I never have to find out. But as I have said before, if it turns out I'm wrong, well, I won't suffer the indignity of "i told you so's" on the gun forum when I'm in my grave.

In other words, I don't care what you carry, and I don't care if you think my carry choices are faulted.

I don't care. Let's just agree we like guns.

That one made me laugh out loud...

I am always interested in anything to do with the Stake Out Unit!

I knew neither men (though it would have been a privilege) as I am near their age at 71 but have to rely on what was written in the books on Jim Cirillo like Paul Kirchner's new "Revised and Expanded Edition" of "Jim Cirillo's Tales of the Stakeout Squad". Where the discrepancies between the recollections of different SOU members of the same events are discussed.

On page 39 at the top of the page it says " Stakeout Unit members were required to carry the issue .38 Special, but there was no prohibition against carrying any other weapons, such as Allard's .45 automatic, as a backup." As I say I have no personal knowledge and can only rely on what is printed in the books about him.

There are other references to other members of the squad in this particular book carrying .45 autos is all I can say. I could post the page references and names of those listed as carrying the .45s if you wish.

I'm only sorry Jim Cirillo is gone as he certainly seems to have been my kind of man and I would have loved to have taken a class under him. I think Jim Cirillo's main asset when it came to gunfighting was his intellect and never ending quest into ballistics to find a better way. I mean the man carried Super Vel ammo near its inception far before the rest of Law Enforcement understood the need for high velocity hollow points. He experimented with hard cast full wadcutters which are just now being understood and fully appreciated.

Guys, I know I am an old Elmer Keith style throwback type of guy however never underestimate us old guys.

I like Big Bores in my handguns. There are no sure things in handguns. I like larger calibers because if Murphy's Law comes into play as it always seems to at the prefect wrong moment the bullet does not have to be depended upon to expand to be effective. That is what attracted me to the Underwood .44 Special 200gr. Wadcutter Hi-Tek Coated Hard Cast ammo at 1000 FPS and the Underwood .44 Magnum 200gr. Wadcutter Hi-Tek Coated Hard Cast ammo at 1300 FPS.

I found out that the Underwood .44 Magnum 200gr. Wadcutter Hi-Tek Coated Hard Cast ammo at 1300 FPS is rated out of a 7 inch barrel and when shot out of a S&W 2 3/4" .44 Magnum it was choreographed at a five shot average of 1080 FPS.

I am waiting to hear back from Underwood about the .44 Special 200gr. Wadcutter Hi-Tek Coated Hard Cast ammo at 1000 FPS as to barrel length to compare the velocity loss differences.

I would absolutely trust any averages and statistics compiled by Mr. Givens and the rangemaster team, as I believe most of those statistics are compiled based on reports of their alumni rather than just pulling tidbits out of papers and FBI reports.

Having read many books of criminals and police work, such as those on the stake out unit, Texas shotgun squads, and NYPD detectives... the majority of criminals run when confronted with armed resistance. That leads me to believe that having to gunfight against hordes of John Wick assassins with tricked out glock 34's running +5 mag extensions that will stand and fight back are not the norm.

Now I realize that the 1986 FBI and the 1997 LA shootouts were extended events. I also concede that the FBI reports on the effectiveness of handgun stopping power includes a reference to a determined criminal that stood, fought, and absorbed a lot of damage.

However, I am not going out in my day loaded with a high capacity full size offensive handgun carrying a dozen extra mags. The "what-ifs" that require that equipment are infinitesimal to me.

For me, a carried gun is about saving my family, myself or my on duty partner. It is about stopping the threat or buying time/distance to escape.

Therefore I believe that a revolver is still relevant if it is what you will carry every day.

On the subject of big bore revolvers, I would still say absolutely yes. I love to carry my 657PC, it only offers 1 less round than my EDC glock 39. It also gives me the ability to throw some big heavy wadcutters. While this might not mean much to some people, I believe that they have a great value to dealing with hard targets.

Cirillo mentioned numerous times that the sharp edge of a blunt nosed bullet is less likely to deflect from bone as a rounded nose will. A finding that was also supported by bowling pin shooters who found a RN would deflect off of the side of a pin. Big bore revolvers give us big fat meplates.

And as a very last point I would like to bring up that Mr. Givens, Clint Smith, and most of the gunsite staff prefer 5" 1911s. Some of the very best in the industry choose limited capacity guns.

If you spend any time on youtube, which I sometimes do, you may be familiar with a user named "Donut Operator". He's an ex-cop and does a lot of assessment of different police and citizen encounters. Most of the time he's right in critiquing the modern hatred for cops and lies about them.

In the last few days, he posted a video of an encounter in which a deputy fired what appears to be 12 rounds into an offender attacking him with a pretty good sized stick. The deputy was WAY too close - giving orders from a distance is usually a better practice. However, wherever you go, there you are, and the deputy had to put what appears to be 12 rounds into the center of the offender at a rapid pace to achieve success in defending himself. Many offenders are under the umbrella of "drunk, drugged, or deranged" and will not be stopped without a lot of damage, which takes a lot of rounds. Just something to keep in mind.

For myself, I rarely carry an N frame - I have relatively small hands and my custom round butted M66 4" fits a lot better. I have and like N frames, but the one hand portion of the retired qualification course shows that is it not as good for my hands and other limitations. So be it. Placement is vital.

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NHI, 10-8.

Timely and relevant to this thread article just posted over at Revolver Guy: The Case For The Modern Defensive Revolver - RevolverGuy.Com

Author's Darryl Bolke; he's probably forgotten more about real gunfighting and the defensive use of a firearm than most of us will ever know.

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Pickpocket

Suppressing fire? You're not on the battlefield. What handgun would be using or did you just call in Puff?

In the civilian context explain that to the jury.

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Smith, and Wesson, and Me.

Why I love the 44 mag and 44 special with heavy loads.

I can kill most anything in North America.

In Colorado we do on occasion have problems with bears and mountain lions.

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Smith, and Wesson, and Me.

I mostly carry a 325 and 6 more rounds in a set of half moon clips. No big gangs in Montana. If I need a gun it will most likely be from being at an armed robbery scene. The odds of that are real slim and the odds it is over 2 guys way slimmer. But, even it I run into a multiple assailant deal my problems are WAY WAY greater than how many rounds does my gun have. If they are any good at all my chances of putting 3 of them down before I get hammered or under cover are 100 times slimmer than the odds of being in such a situation, so the odds of the deciding factor being lack of ammo is slim to none and Slim froze to death down in Texas the other day.

Show me an example where a law abiding civilian was killed in a gun fight because he ran out of ammo after 6 rounds.

I recommend you check out the 3" M629 Deluxe. I bought one a few years back and have carried it extensively. I carry Winchester Silvertip 44 Mags in it, but if I was in an apartment bldg I would definitely take it down to 44 SPL.

The 3" Deluxe is cheaper than the 2.6" PC, and also a far more attractive gun IMO.

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