One thing that I would really like to know is what exactly these folks who believe that they will be attacked at random by drug-addicted bullet-sponges is what on Earth they would do if the AWB were reinstated, start dual-wielding pistols?

Also, can anyone provide an instance in which an attacker took 6 rounds of .44 Magnum to the torso and kept right on coming? Because for all the blind assertions that handgun cartridges are somehow magically equal in effectiveness these days, I've honestly never heard of anyone ever shrugging off getting blasted multiple times with .44 Magnum, and I strongly doubt that it has ever happened. (And I mean verified .44 Magnum, not .44 Special fired from a .44 Magnum Revolver.)

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I think that it does happen, but the number of people going very far with several 40 caliber holes in them is considerably less than lottery winners. 44 mag or special acp what have you. The number of times 2 or more assailants soaked up several 40+ caliber rounds and kept going to take down their victim has got to be a very very small list indeed.

Like I said about cases of a citizen armed with a revolver going down because he ran out of ammo. Show Me. I have no doubt it might have happened. Hey a guy won almost a billion dollar lottery . But, the odds are poor. I buy one lottery ticket now and then. I have 6 tickets for my shoot out lottery. The odds I will still be standing after running out of ammo and still having attackers coming at me are pretty small especially if they have me out numbered and out gunned and then the number of rounds in my gun probably won't be the reason I go down. Besides having my orbit say Big Jim went down in a hail of bullets after emptying his revolver at his attackers at 70+ years old ain't all that much worse than he shriveled up and died in his bed at 90+. Sure be a lot more interesting. I am in no big hurry, mind you but its coming anyway. i will just take my chances with a big bore revolver.

Since I carry a 627 all the BG(s) get is 8 rounds of .357 magnum. While I can reload surprisingly quickly...IMO after letting lose 8 rounds of .357 at close range...I don't need no stinkin reload.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

I think big bore revolvers time to be put out to pasture has come when it comes to every day CCW. For woods guns and predator defense when hiking, absolutely still a viable and useful too. I would much rather be throwing full power hard cast lead in .357 or .44 Magnum flavor against a bear than anything you could stuff in most commonly carried semi-autos.

Out and about though, Ill take the extra capacity, extra mag, low weight, and slim profile of my G43x all day.

Maybe, but for me it’s completely situational. I don’t live in a city so a 625 or 325 with a reload feels totally adequate around my property or even if I have a need to go into one of the small towns near me. If however I have to travel into “the big city”, which is rarely if I have my druthers, I will exchange the wheel gun for a semi with more capacity at my disposal.

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!אחרי
144:1

I don't always get into gun fights, but when I do I reach for my big bore NAA 22 mag in the neck chain holster.

Attached Images

Neck Chain.jpg (149.6 KB, 67 views)

I actually have one of those. I don’t wear it much, but it has its place. Gotta keep the back of your neck shaved or the chain will catch on hairs.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
Second rule: It must work, absolutely.
everything else is debatable..................

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

If you'd been professionally trained and/or carried a revolver in a professional capacity, you'd know that the crane isn't "flopping " in a speed loader reload.

Standing still, running, or hopping on one foot.

I'm not trying to call you out, but what you said is somewhat silly to those who've trained with DA revolvers.

Autos are faster to reload, particularly for the general population, but a well trained revolver shooter isn't nearly as slow as you're implying.

Big bore DA revolvers are not obsolete and make good holster guns out here in the country. Vermin 2 legged or 4, all are at risk............

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

If you want to see "reality" go over and look at the videos of real gunfights and robberies on YouTube and LiveLeak. Active Self Defense over on YouTube has tons of gunfight videos from around the world...those are reality. You'll see that the equipment rarely matter be it a semi or a revolver...tactics, training and mindset are everything.

99% of city type gangs are cowards...don't believe me look at the videos of what happens when a "victim" pulls a gun and starts firing...even the armed Bangers run like rabbits...

Big problem however is the Mexican drug guys... If you are out in the desert and they are making a run and run across you, a G19, ten extra magazines and your AK47 are not going to solve your problem. They stay until you are dead or they are dead because if they run the Boss will kill them when he catches up with them...Lets hope it doesn't come to that here north of the boarder...

Bob

If someone is worried about it one can always do as I do and carry both; an Apex Tactical Custom S&W 625-8 JM 4" .45 ACP using Full Moon clips and a Springfield Armory XD .45 Service Model as a back-up gun. Then you have one of each for a switch if it becomes necessary for any reason. Being prepared is always a good practice. Both use the same ammo so if one, God forbid, malfunctions there is ammo compatibility.

It's true.....averages and studies mean nothing. And to some degree, neither does your weapon or how many rounds it holds. If you get in a gunfight, you are rolling the dice with your life.
If you are in the proverbial grocery store with a can of peaches in your hand, and 3 or 4 armed thugs walk in with guns in their HANDS ready to go, you better be looking for a means of egress if your smart. I don't care what your packing or how many mags you got. If you are lucky enough to survive, you surely hit multiple innocent people after firing your 150rnds of "firepower".
Encountering an adversary who is deliberate, skilled, and has nerve, a person is in trouble no matter how many more rounds he has on tap.

I carry a 1911, Glock 19, or a K-frame Smith on any given day. I don't feel poorly armed with any.
Things being what they are today, I don't carry small guns anymore. I don't shoot them as well. I am much more concerned about that than capacity.

Suppressive fire? Anyone remember the saying there is a lawyer attached to every round fired? Anyone using "suppressive fire" civilian, law, military, had best pray the the good lord almighty that they don't hurt one of mine. Lawyers will be the last thing that they need to worry about.

I am quite comfortable with my .357 LCR or Model 69 2 3/4 inch .44, each with five extra rounds in a belt pouch. Having been a party to in some form as a crime reporter perhaps 50 shootings of suspects by police officers, I know that the 2-4 shots average is correct. In fact, you can almost always replace the term "gunfight" with "gun show," as simply displaying the weapon is almost always sufficient to send most offenders scurrying home to mama.

If I can't deal with whatever it is with five rounds in the cylinder and five more in reserve I don't have any business carrying a gun in the first place.

With all this back and forth about size and capacity, firepower etc. an imaginary, although entirely realistic statistic might say that for perhaps 90% of the civilian population, a snub nose revolver is adequate for concealed carry/self defense. The other 10% of the population might be hunters in the wilds needing a means of defense against large and angry critters. That's not saying that YOU should choose a snub nose...only that YOU could probably get by quite well with a snub. If a double stack semi gives you mostly peace of mind, and little else, then so be it. Why else, after at least a century of use, by gangsters, detectives, and ordinary Citizens...are people still carrying snub nose revolvers? Why do snub noses continue to be manufactured and sell quite well...when all these wonderful polymer semi-autos of varying sizes and capacities are available? Even among the Sicarios, snub nose revolvers aka Chatas "stubbies" continue to be a weapon of choice because they are extremely concealable, reliable and effective at close range. They don't "spray lead" indiscriminately and more importantly they are "clean" and don't spray brass cases. You can't tell me that we move in a more dangerous environment than they do.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

Revolvers are absolutely still relevant for self defense and they have certain advantages over auto pistols.

Learn to shoot one and you'll be in good shape for most any realistic defensive situation that occurs.

I couldn't disagree more. While some gangsters are juvies and wannabes, there are nearly always serious gangsters with them. The street drug retail trade is the most deadly end of drug trafficking, and gangs handle nearly all of it.

Differently, Mexican cartels in the US are about moving drugs almost exclusively - mules carrying product are seldom armed because of the enhanced penalties if they get caught. As well, shooting/killing uninvolved civilians means law enforcement attention and trouble; there is no profit in trouble. There are some cartel murders in the US, but it is far less risky for them to kill in Mexico.

I can think of several names of folks killed in street drug retail transactions or turf/gang wars; I know of three in 10 years killed in cartel murders along NM's border with Mexico. We routinely sacked up mules carrying weed, heroin, and meth; nearly none were armed when caught with drugs or trafficked money for laundering.

We do have to recognize there is a difference between what a uniformed officer, a detective, a Federal Officer of any Federal Agency today in this world and environment needs to carry because of what their sworn duty may get them involved in and what a civilian needs for concealed carry for everyday carry mainly because as civilians we are not to intervene in stopping criminal activity but to call Law Enforcement to report crime in progress. That said, citizens may at times be called upon or be required if only by conscious to intervene on the side of Law Enforcement due to incumbent circumstances to save life. Due to the differences and disparity of training between both Law Enforcement agencies and an even more vast difference between the training between and among civilians; there lies the problem of intervention into active criminal actions involving a shooter or shooters. As more and more Law Enforcement agencies arrive upon the scene co-ordination between agencies becomes and every increasing problem that has on occasion led to even plain cloths officers being shot by uniformed officers by mistake. Throw in armed civilians into the mix shooting at an active shooter and who can pick out the "bad guy shooter" from the legally armed civilians trying to stop him? One can see the magnitude of the problem spiraling into the proverbial nightmare scenario for the officers arriving on scene trying to sort everything out. Sometimes we as a people do not understand or give Law Enforcement the credit they are due to the monumental near impossible task they are thrown into due to the "battle fog" of the scene yet they are expected to do everything perfect with decisions made in a matter of seconds (with very little if any real information) with politician and citizen oversight hindsight used after the fact with days, weeks and months to investigate used later to judge them.

Considering what modern officers are subjected to it is amazing anyone volunteers to be a Law Enforcement Officer. There are not enough of them, they don't get paid enough or get trained enough!!!

Smith & Wesson 625 JM in .45 ACP.
Some may question why would someone want to shoot .45 ACP through a “six-gun” when you could shoot 7 to 13 of them through a semi-auto? I for one carry both. Well, it’s kind of like how people use bicycles even though motorcycles exist. I have been a life long .45 ACP auto guy but at the same time I have for many many years wanted to acquire a high quality S&W .45 ACP revolver. The “JM” version is based on the previous 625, which was based on the old model 25, also chambered in .45 ACP. The “6” in the name denotes the stainless steel finish. Jerry Miculek’s iteration of the .45 revolver was quite popular in shooting competitions. However, I’d read that an IDPA rule change put a damper on its use. People seem to either love using full moon clips as I do or hate them. I find them extremely faster than speed loaders and easier to use but it is a personal preference thing. To my way of thinking one should use what works best for you and not works best for me just as to choosing a guns caliber. I use a .45 ACP because I have been shooting one since I was a kid and I'm 71 now and it is second nature to me. It feels right in my hand and I know where the 230gr. rounds are going to shoot to. Being 6'5" and 300lbs makes a difference also. I load Federal 230gr. HST +P in my S&W 625-8 JM 4" Apex Tactical Specialties revolver and standard velocity in my Springfield Armory XD .45 Service Model 4". I really like the Federal loading. I consider the XD as my back-up now though it was originally my primary CCW concealed carry gun back when I had a CCW in a former state of residence.


States and locations limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds
Since there is every indication this is an ongoing trend does this not make especially a modern fast loading revolver cut for use with full moon clips more of an option especially like an 8-shot revolver? Remember you are not limited to carrying only one gun as far as I know. Check your individual state carry Laws for their rules on carrying more than one gun on you and your CCW permit .

1. California
2. Connecticut
3. Washington D.C.
4. Hawaii
5. Maryland
6. Massachusetts
7. New Jersey
8. New York
9. Vermont
10. Virginia

The old saying a .44 in the thigh isn't as good as a .22 in the eye sums up a lot. Shot placement is more important than anything. Practice with what you have, and then if you want something bigger ( something starting with a .4 probably doesn't need to expand and if it does, cool) practice with that. We each have to find our own way to salvation.

Statistically, it's only a gun fight when both parties are armed. Otherwise its a robbery and/or murder. Having a gun-any gun-means you have an option that doesn't include meekly being slaughtered.

I think the most recent shooting in a grocery store does put some relevance in a big bore snubby for self defense. The perp was reportedly shot in the leg and was also reported to be wearing a vest, most likely armor (guessing). A 500, 454 or 460 magnum would have defeated the vest with one round to the center mass, while tens of rounds of the smaller stuff would have been defeated. I suspect the leg shot was the only viable option for the police responding, after all there would be riots if an officer took a head shot to protect themselves or others.

"An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity." - Clint Smith, past Thinder Ranch director

I'll still stand by the 99% are cowards but you are correct in that the Mexican Drug Cartels would rather loose a shipment (they have lots more) than draw the wrath of US law enforcement... I was thinking mainly south of Boarder as I read a lot of what is going on down there...and it isn't really relevant to this side...yet...

Bob

Those of y'all that know me,

Know I believe in...



///

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

With shootings on the rise I’m not sure about that.

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Plant garlic in the fall

Time to dust off the shoulder holster and load a cannon.

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Plant garlic in the fall

I’m thinking a 4” to 6” barreled magnum with six shots should be enough with two speed loaders.

Im limited to 10 rd mags in a pistol. One in the pipe eight in the mag for a 1911. Should be enough with two extra mags.

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Plant garlic in the fall

While not big bore, when I'm not carrying 1911s I am carrying my 327pc and/or 340pd. I don't worry about reloading.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Bill,
I sometimes jest use a lit'l deal like this'n...
Dave



///

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

How about a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" loaded with +P .44 Special HPs or lower velocity .44 Magnum HPs. It's too bad they don't offer a 3.5" or 4" or just made the original a 3" to begin with. If you really want to speed up the reloads and not have to deal with speed loaders have the cylinder cut for full moon clips and the chambers chamfered. Six of those rounds would give a very satisfying "Thunk" as they fall into the cylinder for revolver guys. I know that does nothing for high capacity 9mm guys however with the 9 states now limiting magazine capacity to 10 rounds it is a consideration in those states and if you are a .38/.357 guy there is the S&W 627 with its 8 shot capacity offering 2.6", 4" and 5" barrels that comes already with a cylinder cut for full moon clips and chamfered chambers from the factory.





I'm not personally a .357 guy but when you look at the performance of ammo like the Barnes 125gr. TAC-XPD out of a 2" barrel according to Lucky Gunner tests expanding in a five shot average to .75 that is impressive at a five shot average of 1251 FPS. The 4" velocity was 1418 FPS and .69 expansion so a 2.6" and 3" barrel would be somewhere in between.

Different folks in different places have different experiences. In our little corner of Heaven, the East Side Locos, Surenos, and 18th Street were the most common and the most violent, with locally franchised El Paso/Juarez street gang members problematic. They would kill over turf, drug debt, paranoia about snitches, to prove manliness, on a bet, to win an argument, because someone's little sister got pregnant, or because they were screwed up on substances. One rocket scientist shot himself through the hand with a 44 magnum because it worked on TV and everyone dared him.

We had no Crips, Bloods, and no Hell's Angels; Bandidos are more Albuquerque.

I present all sides of an issue.

When Six Is Not Enough – Myths of the Self-Defense Revolver By Chris Baker

It covers:

Myth 1 – “Six is enough if you know how to shoot”

Myth 2 – “Use a bigger bullet and you won’t need that many of them”

Myth 3 – “You can always just reload”

Read the entire article here>https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/when-six-is-not-enough-myths-of-the-self-defense-revolver/

That is why I carry both a revolver and an auto as each has their advantages in a gunfight! Both mine are in .45ACP however I AM NOT a caliber snob/elitist!!! I have been shooting a .45ACP for almost 60 years now and believe in not trying to fix what is not broken and teaching such and old dog a knew way of shooting. I first qualified "Expert" with a Colt 1911 .45ACP when I was 21 years old in the U.S. Army in 1971. Everyone should shoot and carry what THEY Shoot most accurately with!!! Do not let others dictate your caliber but pick your caliber by your ability to shoot it and the individual bullets PROVEN PERFORMANCE!

Your statistic of 1 in a 1,000,000 will be wrong in 57.2% of the cases. Thus you will need 57.2% of three rounds used in a gunfight which is 2.002 rounds.

And yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night,

Humor aside, if we go by the "statistics" all one needs is 3 to 3.5 rounds... so will people short load their EDC based on that?

As for revolvers and "big bore" carry what you are good with and with good defensive ammo.

I spent years on the road in the music business. Late nights, angry drunks, bar fights, all the social problems that can exist. Even saw a bartender's estranged girlfriend drive her SUV throught the front of the club I was working at . I always carried a Mdl 60 in a shoulder holster, whenever i could wear a covering shirt. When it was too hot, it was in the top of my gig bag next to my sound board. Fast forward to the past 25 years working at a museum, two blocks from my house.

Recently, two knife and one umbrella sword attack at the 7-11 and One Stop stores two blocks away. Had to face down a cracked-up hooker in my apartment building hallway with my 637 laser (helps when you put it in their face). Couple of years back, the mayor's son shot up the 7-11 with an AK. Amazing no one got hurt. He went to rehab instead of jail.

When the 365XL came out, I found the high-cap IWB semi I can depend on when I pull the trigger. In cargo pants, it always goes out the door with a spare in the pocket. I carry it walking the 'hood, which over the years is getting less friendly. At home, I trust my 637, and both GP100s, one 357, the other 44spl, all with Crimson Trace lasers, to protect my inside space.

I've had a gun pointed at me three times, sadly all by people I knew. Fortunately, all was good after.

But I still wake up if I hear a 9 being emptied three-four blocks away. It's the 21st century, and things aren't the same any more.

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Heavily armed old man.

Code of Virginia citation?

On Virginia, I stand corrected as it should not have been on the list from the site I found. I have included the information I found below upon further research. Thank you for catching my error as I do not want wrong information spread.

“State Restrictions on Magazines, Chemical Sprays and Stun Guns”

Source:https://handgunlaw.us/documents/NoHiCapChemSpray.pdf


Last Updated
SEPTEMBER 23, 2020
Virginia prohibits the carrying of certain kinds of loaded firearms on or about the person, openly or concealed, on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in certain cities.1 More specifically, the law applies to a loaded: (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock; or (ii) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.2 The law only applies in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.3 Concealed handgun permit holders and individuals actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest are among the exceptions.4

From: Magazine Limits: What Are They and Which States Have Them? | USCCA
Virginia
Old Dominion doesn’t allow more than 20 rounds for handguns. Although Virginia has no law restricting large-capacity ammunition magazines, Virginia law defines “assault firearm” as any semi-automatic centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

The information contained on this website is provided as a service to USCCA, Inc. members and the concealed carry community and does not constitute legal advice. Although we attempt to address all areas of concealed carry laws in all states, we make no claims, representations, warranties, promises or guarantees as to the accuracy, completeness or adequacy of the information disclosed. Legal advice must always be tailored to the individual facts and circumstances of each individual case. Laws are constantly changing, and, as such, nothing contained on this website should be used as a substitute for the advice of a lawyer.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/magazine-capacity-laws-by-state

California 10 rounds

Colorado 15 rounds

Connecticut 10 rounds

Hawaii 10 rounds

Maryland 10 rounds

Massachusetts 10 rounds

New Jersey 10 rounds

New York 10 rounds

Vermont 10 rounds for Long Guns; 15 rounds for handguns

Reading all the posts on how revolvers are six and your done or dead, means I must be blessed, made it through 80's,90's and early 2000's on a Model 10.

Thought to ponder on the phone store scenario, laying down fire, not reloading a revolver. I go back to a bad memory of the word gun being shouted by another cop . Seeing the gun being pointed in mine and others way, acting on training or instinct not sure, draw, fire, empty, speed load, repeat go to snubby quick and stop.

Then the Sgt. taking both from me and saying go to the Hospital and shut up, union rep with me, going over 6, 12, or 3 or 4 more from snub. One speed loader missing no service or back up on belt. Union rep saying wait for lawyer shut up.

Doctors not letting anyone talk to me, hypertension, stress, anxiety, over night stay and meds.

Meeting with my lawyer, remembering each shot and step, why and how.

IAB, Shooting Team, District Attorney, Grand Jury accounting for every round, why, what did you see, fear, where did it go, what did the perp do, why did you reload, was it enough or too much ? Weeks of it. Desk no gun, waiting for a clearance or no true bill. Spend a few months on that, with lawful authority to fire and a duty. Sleepless nights, stress, second guessing all so much fun.

Don't wish it on anybody.

All the scenarios all the what ifs, remember every pull of that trigger is going to have an accounting, like it or not, survive the incident, wonderful, thank God. Survive the aftermath unscathed, God Bless and good luck.

For those looking for home defense/apartment defense in a revolver there is always the S&W 629 Performance Center 2.65" .44 Magnum that can double as a "concealed carry" piece and pressed into service as "bear defense" with the right loadings.

There is such a diversity of loadings for this gun from .44 Special, .44 Special +P, all the way through Randy Garrett 310gr. Hammerheads and Buffalo Bore Hard cast .44 Magnum loads. The 44 Rem Mag 135gr Glaser Silver is the only revolver loading still available according to the Cor-Bon site but the 135gr Glaser Safety Slug Silver (Glaser Silver is loaded with a compressed load of larger #6 lead shot as opposed to the original Blue Glaser's #12 shot) at 1600fps from a Test Barrel Length of 4.0 Inches would leave a lasting impression and giving it deeper penetration. One can have the cylinder cut for full moon clips and the chambers chamfered for faster reloads if preferred. It all depends on what you want and can shoot. Some people live where large capacity 9MM are limited to 10 rounds and some of us old farts just love Big Bore Revolvers.

.44 Magnum Full Moon clips can be found at TK Custom - Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum Moon Clips - 6 Shot (N-Frame) - TK Custom

All I can say is I would not want to be in anyone’s shoes who laid down suppressive fire in a citizen self defense shooting, and try to explain it to a jury - especially today.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Problem solved...

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

All my stated facts are based on my opinion too.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

So how many of you revolver carriers have now been convinced to switch to a bottom feeder??

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

As from the beginning I carry BOTH as I have said, as they both have their advantages. No one says you just have to carry one gun or one type of gun. .45 ACP Auto and .45ACP revolver.

I just carry one gun.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

To each there own.

I also carry multiple "fighting knives" and walk with a "fighting cane" but I actually need a cane anyway so why not carry a "fighting" model.