The science of incapacitating human beings. There is a paradox between the ability of some individuals to take extreme amounts of damage to their bodies and yet survive while others can suffer relatively minor damage go into shock and die. This should be of interest to law enforcement and anyone that may face a lethal force engagement where the delivery of an effective amount of trauma in as efficient a manner as possible can often mean the difference between stopping an assailant or having them continue on their destructive path.

Many in both law enforcement and the civilian self-defense communities can have a less than realistic realistic expectations of what will or will not happen during an extreme encounter. “Why isn’t he going down?”

On the range, reactive targets fall with one or two shots placed anywhere on them. Turning targets face away after a specified cadence of fire. Video scenarios often end mere seconds after an officer fires his shots. During scenario training, role players are often told to “go down” after one or two shots are placed in a torso section or in the head. In such training exercises, improperly trained “bad guys” will often do one of two things – die too fast or never die at all. So what happens inside the mind of an officer when the reactions of targets in training are inconsistent with what happens in real life? I believe it programs them for future failure in actual encounters.

If it is a Law Enforcement Officer or a Civilian in a Lethal Force Situation they do not shoot unless it is a life and death situation. When that is the case you want your bullets to go where they will do the most damage in the least amount of time in order to quickly and effectively stop somebody from doing whatever it was that caused them to be shot in the first place. This should be mandatory training for everyone empowered to carry a firearm. Tactical Anatomy is the essence of winning gunfights, which to my mind is the point of getting into a gunfight in the first place … to win. Very few civilians get any such Tactical Anatomy Training but they need to seek it out.

I’ll disagree.

Once I acquired the collective works of Gecko45 I threw all my SD books away.

I'm good, thank you.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

There are two positively effective ways of shutting down a human adversary pretty much instantly. Decapitation or destruction of the brain stem. Pretty much anything else is problematic. Humans are unreliable that way.

Tactical Anatomy

Real world.

Dr Andreas Grabinsky Lecture on Gunshot Wounds - YouTube

I recall an alien saying (in some sci-fi book) that we had "poor resistance to immersion in fluids".

1. Shot placement is critical.
2. Shoot until the threat is neutralized.
That's the extent of this particular "science".

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Tactical Anatomy Training
Do an in internet search on the subject for those serious into the self-defense.

YkcorCal,

Nice posts, particularly #5, but possibly something that doesn't need a lot of discussion.

JMO; YMMV.

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Formerly Model520Fan

It would help a lot if the bad guys would wear this tee shirt.

It would help more if it was marked with point values.

Attached Images

sb-ant-1_l.jpg (62.3 KB, 558 views)

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

LOL, Visualization my friend, Visualization!

There are venues that really dig in to these discussions, I have never got the impression that the Smith & Wesson forum is focused quite so much in to these things.

Can you just post a link to where you're getting all this copypasta from?

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Retired Career Security Guard

I'm just trying to save lives as so few truly understand "tactical anatomy" and the need not only for accurate placement of fire but exactly the most effective places where to place it in the direst extremes in defense of their lives and where to get such training. It is far more detailed than most law enforcement gets in their average academy training much less civilians who have concealed carry needs. I have gone as far as I will go on a public forum.

If you are referring to the targets they are a simple internet search for "Tactical Anatomy Targets".

If you are referring to "Tactical Anatomy" it is not "copy and paste" but I am referring to the work of Tactical Anatomy Systems by MD James S. Williams, which you can look up for yourself.

Any other snide question?

I always taught to shoot, two in the chest and one in the head unless the reactionary gap has been breached, then just shoot them in the head.
People who are in the throws of a violent mental episode often exhibit unusual strength and are less reactive to pain as are those on drugs like Meth.

I agree to these terms.

I worked a bunch of shootings. I never had a cop tell me - I would have shot sooner, but I was waiting for a clear path to the vena cava.

In the real world people stick bullets wherever they can as fast as they can, then repeat as necessary.

Its an interesting topic, but kind of in the “how many angels” category.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

ykcorCal,
I appreciate your comments. Sorry you're getting flack. I was 2 years in the U.S. Border Patrol and 32 years in U.S. Customs before it became CBP. Only in my final 5 years did we receive the Tactical Training and that was only at Glenco. We finally had it set up when I was in charge with a full time range officer. A couple of years after I retired we had a lethal selfdefense shooting inside the Secondary offices at the Port of entry. 2 Inspectors were wounded and 1 perk was eliminated. It can happen. Interestingly, he was an old man. Now who would imagine?

I would agree with the OP.. funny how some will study the anatomy of the game they hunt but think it is worthless info in the self defense world. Not saying we are "hunting" but why would you study the anatomy of game and not something that could possibly safe your butt..
"why did you shoot him 15 times?" ask the prosecutor...

The Mozambique Drill, also known as the Failure Drill, or Failure to Stop drill, informally, "two to the body, one to the head."

I was also taught a Modified Mozambique Drill, which was two to the chest, one to the pelvic girdle (to fix the target's mobility), then one to the head because the guys we might be shooting could be wearing level IV body armor. But that was back when I was working US Army Drug Suppression.

Thanks for the comments. Some people just knee jerk respond rather than consider what I am trying to put across.

This is not an end all scenario people. It is just something that has been studied to try to help people end gun fights faster WHEN it can safely be used. Just like there is no perfect bullet, or caliber, there is no perfect tactic however there are things that when practical can aid an officer or civilian in ending a gunfight faster and safer for them. Its no magic panacea just another option when common sense allows it to be used in a situation. Nothing is an end all in every situation, give me a break and use your common sense! Stop looking to tear every little thing apart at every opportunity you can. This should be a discussion not a debate or a got you game!!!

We are supposed to be on the same side!

Please drop me a message as to which venues really dig into these discussions as I thought "Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense" would be just such a place as to discuss such a subject at least of a surface level for people to find out where to get such training.

Is that not what S&W makes so many of their handguns for or are they all made for target shooting?

" Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
There are venues that really dig in to these discussions,
at the Smith & Wesson forum is focused quite so much in to these things".

It's good that they are mentioned we have a lot 'newbies' here that may profit from these points. Maybe save someone's life. While we're at it I've seen marines freeze up when it came to firing at an enemy. Until it occurs you can never be certain how you will react. A lot of people have just bought firearms that probably never considered it before,

Before anyone assails my education next I will post it. I attended Ouachita Baptist University, Arkadelphia, Arkansas, Henderson State University, Arkadelphia, Arkansas, Eastern New Mexico University, Portales, New Mexico where I graduated with a major in Psychology and a double minor one in Sociology and one in Military Science. I was sent to Yale University, New Haven, CT by the US Army where I received a certificate as a Drug Education Specialist. Casper College, Casper, Wyoming, College of the Mainland, Texas City, Texas.

My major fields of study have been Psychology, Sociology, Military Science, and Criminal Justice.

I have been studying ballistics on my own time since I was about 10 years old and I'm 71 now. I started shooting my grandfathers Colt 1911 around 10 years old and I still shoot two .45 ACPs one revolver and one auto. I sold my .44 Magnum last year but intend to acquire a shorter barreled one for concealed carry. I started studying martial arts at the age of 18. My favorite is Jiu-Jitsu of all the styles.

This is America....Probable need a target more like this

Where I’m coming from with my posts in this discussion...

This is basically a forum where collectors gather to discuss the nuances and history of 100+ years of Smith & Wesson. Yes, if course this is not to say that THIS topic is forbidden. We also discuss food, portable generators, childhood memories of Christmas, muscle cars of the 1970’s, and a myriad of other topics, some tangentially related to firearms and many not at all.

I’m simply saying that if you want deep dive in to THIS discussion and you choose to do it here rather than a discussion forum dedicated to professional human target management, you should expect the kind of responses that you deem “flack” and “knee jerk.”

I was the first to reply in this thread. To be more specific, I take genuine issue with this direct quote:

Don’t agree, not even 1%. Don’t care for the word choice either. “Empowered?”

Definition: give (someone) the authority or power to do something.
Don’t much care for this. My empowerment comes from my own free will or perhaps God.

Folks can disagree. And you can continue to teach courses here if that’s your thing. Much like I have the opinion that an armed confrontation typically doesn’t have a thug standing pretty in a field like a glorious Buck might, where you can consider where all the vital organs are arranged... I also believe that this laser-focused subject isn’t a popular subject on a collector’s forum.

But post away. I only reply when I read an opinion where some random forumdood tells the gathered masses what he thinks should be mandatory.

I’d hate to have to explain to a jury that, as a private citizen, I sought out a LE level training experience taught by a renowned trauma surgeon that focused on making sure I killed the dead guy with one shot, or at least with maximum efficiency. As a juror, I’d have some questions . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not all caricatures are flattering:

You know the ones I am talking about made about Law Enforcement.

Jim Cirillo was a member of NYPD's stakeout unit. The squad was involved
in 252 gunfights. Jim personally was involved in putting down 19 bad guys.
In all of that, Jim said he only saw 2 one-shot-stops, and both of
them were to the brain. He said even accurate heart shots were not
instant stoppers.

Chicago Police Sergeant Bob Stasch, a veteran of 14 gunfights, said he
had only experienced 1 one-shot-stop. In one incident he and his partner
were attacked by a perp with a butcher knife. They pumped six .45 Colt
rounds into him, but he didn't go down. Five more hits with .38 Sp.
lead hollow points, but he was still attacking. Four more shots with
.44 Magnum Winchester Silver Tips. The 4th one finally put the perp down.

I remember way back when a couple of Puerto Rico fanatics attacked
President Truman. One of them had a bead on the President. A Secret
Service Agent, who happened to be the best shot on the Secret Service
Team, fired his Detective Special loaded with the standard, back then,
round nose lead. He was aiming between the bad guys eyes. The bullet
bounced off the bump at the top of the guy's forehead, and skidded
across his scalp. A great story is told in Stephen Hunter's book -
American Gunfight - The Plot To Kill Harry Truman - And the Shootout
That Stopped it.

My point with these 3 stories is simply what Mr. Murphy said. "If anything
can go wrong, it will go wrong, and at the worst possible time."

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In Omnia Paratus

I dissected a frog once. That's the limit of my anatomy studies.

With my agency, we taught “shoot at the middle of the biggest part you can see until they stop doing what’s making you unsafe . . . “

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Then I suggest the forum remove the section on "Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense." As it has nothing to do with " collectors gather to discuss the nuances and history of 100+ years of Smith & Wesson."

However the " Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense" does exist" so feel free to ignore my posts.

You might try actually understanding or asking me what I am trying to communicate rather than just attacking by dropping me a line as if you were willing.

No. I also don't know where the best knitting and crocheting forums are but much like your earlier suggestion, a quick internet search will return the results you seek.


I've got a 469 that does secondary carry duty, but the 95% of all the other Smith & Wesson handguns I own are for (wait for it), target shooting. No, it wasn't Smith & Wesson that said that, it was me. And many of them are sublime.

In a similar vein, we've got plenty of folks who think that since I don't hunt African Elephants, it's completely ridiculous that I also own a 460XVR with an 8-3/8" barrel. The good news is that I can see these people coming a mile away and they give me a chuckle, and it's really a whole lot of fun to ring steel with an X-frame at 300 yards. It's even better when someone is genuinely interested and wants to also try a shot or two and I let them do that. Nearly 60k psi and 48 grains of powder letting loose in a moment, and a 240 grain bullet matching .45 Hardball muzzle velocity, but at 500 yards. Maybe all of ^that^ doesn't fit in to this discussion but it seems relevant to me.

I always subscribed to the 'FTTFF' method.....Fire Till The Feller(or, insert whatever you like ) Falls.

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

Practice and training are great and certainly necessary, but it's important to separate sterile textbook gunfighting from what actually happens in the real world. They're not close to the same and there is no room for a pretentious demeanor when attempting to educate.

Ouch!
TBH, that's a physique I see far too often at the sportman's club.

Targets are great, but I'm in the camp of...
you shoot whatever the assailant makes available to you.

LOL, you just love to be a contrarian. I have no time for wasting with someone with a closed mind as casting pearls of wisdom before such is a waste the Bible says not to mention dangerous. Be happy in your own way.

Only trying to show where others can get educated not trying to educate myself. So who is then being pretentious?

I really appreciate not seeing threads about more effectively shooting people on otherwise benign firearms sites. Never wonder why non-shooters look askance at some gunowners who seem preoccupied with a distasteful topic; we all get tarred with the same brush.

Boy, these covid lockdowns sure make people touchy.

Well the guy teaches such groups as the FBI and other Federal Agencies so I would retain Massad Ayoob as a technical firearms' expert to explain why someone like me would seek out such advanced training when so many "average" law enforcement officers lack it.

I'm afraid you misunderstand this site. We don't attack one another.

Let me inject a little more real world into this largely theoretical exercise in hurt feelings.

Bullets have little minds of their own. They finally get the chance to roam around inside a body and take full advantage - meaning you can use your surgical shooting skill to place your round right where your Tactical Surgery course told you and that little booger will hang a right at Albuquerque and go where it wants.

I worked a deal where a woman had reached her black eye limit and shot Earl once in front of his right armpit with a factory .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter. Classic Hollywood shoulder shot. He said “oh” and fell over dead. The medical examiner found that little lead soupcan in his pelvis after it had spun its way through every vital organ he had.

On the flip side I had a guy take a .22 Magnum FMJ through the front teeth on a direct track to his little brain. He blew it out his nose in an impressive spray of blood and drove himself to the hospital.

Having a working knowledge of human anatomy can’t hurt and its fun to talk about. I’m glad the OP brought it up, and I’m happy for whoever is making some dough teaching it. I’m just skeptical of the practical value.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

You should probably read this . . .

A Note on Freedom of Speech

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Thank you.

I don't know why people are posting here complaining about this discussion because it's not about collecting S&Ws. This is the Concealed Carry & Self Defense subforum. If that topic doesn't interest you, skip it. There are subforums here I don't read because they don't interest me.

I think it is valid to discuss strategies and tactics for people who rely on guns (or other tools) for self defense. While I think it's important to be aware of anatomical targets that can stop an attacker quickly, it's just as important to realize that self defense encounters are often dynamic situations with everybody moving at relatively close distances inside tight time frames. The general guidance to hit the biggest target you can is a good one.

And while it's good to share information and discuss a topic, it can be a problem when someone beats everybody over the head with it and essentially demands that people agree. That's how YkcorCal's posts come across to me, whether it was intended that way or not, and I believe that's at least part of the reason why some posters have issues with them. Unfortunately, that happens all too often, especially in this subforum.

Just my opinion.