Currently, Micro Compact 9mm Pistols such as the SIG P365 and Springfield Armory Hellcat are all the rage, leaving other companies to play catch-up. Recently, Ruger and Smith & Wesson have released their own entries to the market in the form of the Max-9 and M&P9 Shield PLUS, with many criticizing them for not being as small/light as the P365 or Hellcat, despite the fact that both are still lightweight, slimline micro compact pistols.

To put this is perspective here, both the Max-9 and Shield PLUS are roughly the same size/weight as the LC9S and standard single-stack Shield, just slightly thicker, which if you ask me is an impressive feat of engineering considering that both of them hold almost twice the ammo in the magazine, but apparently to many folks, they're just not small enough nor light enough, which begs the question; How small is too small, and how light is too light?

Granted that I have medium sized hands, but the M&P Shield fits them perfectly, even with the flush-fitting magazine, so for me at least, the Shield PLUS being larger than the P365 would be, well...a plus.

The smallest, lightest pistol that I own is the Ruger LCP, which is hard enough to shoot in .380 ACP, so I can't imagine why I would want a firearm that's nearly as small as the LCP, but chambered in 9mm.

What is your take on this?

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Every gun has a purpose. Every purpose has ideal requirements. Compromise is usually part of the final equation. I tend to carry smaller guns if just bopping around the homestead and power up when leaving if the mood strikes me. I often say I carry a handgun because a shotgun won’t fit on my belt comfortably.

329pd - too light

I think a lot of the frame cracking issues are due to the obsession to go light. This is, of course, conjecture on my part but clearly the cracking issues with the newer (lighter) guns is an issue.

I'd rather have a heavier steel frame gun that is less susceptible to cracking vs a space age material light gun who's recoil is so bad and frame cracking an issue that I don't want to shoot/practice with it.

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aka "Mooncat"

Small enough for a controllable grip, light enough to enjoy practicing.

Im personally not a fan of the "smallest" or "lightest" gun thing.

I know most people want to carry the "most comfortable" small gun they can but I fall in line with Clint Smith in that I dont see the "comfort" being the priority. Im comforted by the fact I carry, I dont need to be ultra comfortable.

I certainly understand most people who carry a gun dont want to pack a Desert Eagle or S&W 500 mag daily however smaller guns are harder to shoot well, especially under stress. So I personally see carrying an "ultra" compact gun as a disadvantage if I can take a bigger one.

Edc ccw guns are usually small, light and easy to conceal as opposed to medium to full sized handguns which are easier to shoot but bigger and harder to conceal. You have to decide on the biggest caliber and the smallest gun that you’re comfortable with. They are carried a lot but seldom shot. I alternate between a Jframe .38 with Critical Defense ammo and a .380 Mustang also with Critical Defense ammo. Both are lightweights. As Breakaway said everything’s a compromise.

I have an LCP and a P-365. Even though a small gun for a 9mm, the SIG is much much easier to shoot fast and accurately at any distance compared to the LCP. I do not feel handicapped with the SIG compared to a full size gun when it comes to self defense.

Now a gun that really pushes the limit is my little Freedom Arms mini 4 shot .22 magnum. I can only grip it with one finger and my thumb, and it recoils the barrel straight up with each shot, along with a muzzle blast you would not think a .22 could produce. But when you have to go small, it serves its purpose as a get off me gun.

Larry

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Yep. Comfort for me rarely has anything to do with weight. One would argue that I feel more "comfortable" with a gun with a bit of heft vs light.

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aka "Mooncat"

I think it depends a lot on the caliber and design.
One of my regular carry guns is a Colt Mustang XSP .380. Small, extremely light, accurate and easy to shoot. But its a locked breech design. I have no desire what-so-ever to fire a similar size and weight blowback design.
In .45acp I own a Springfield Ultra-compact. I don't carry it because its a little too small for the caliber, recoil is pretty nasty, accuracy suffers and follow up shots are slow. OTOH, My primary EDC is a Colt Lt Wt Commander. Not much bigger or heavier, but much easier to shoot.
I've never been much for plastic guns and really ain't interested in the current tread of small, light 9mms. My choice in a compact 9mm is the Sig P239. Easy to carry, easy to shoot and wonderfully accurate.

My little NAA 5 shot 22 Mag is My walking the dog gun and I am quite comfortable with it. When I power up I carry My 1911 that I have been shooting for 30 years. Really comfortable with it.

Years ago one of my buddies brought one of those to the Range (IIRC in .22LR) and it was so small (& my hands are so large) I declined to shoot it. In fact, that was the revolver that came to mind when I read the title of this thread.

I find the North American Arms mini-22LR too small to effectively shoot. I *can* hit a target, just not in a hurry, or while running, or from the ground, etc.

The Taurus View is too light. Painful with target wadcutters.

Basically I don't want to go any lighter than an airweight J for a 38 or 9mm. 45 had better be heavier than that.

If you're gonna compromise on bullet, a Beretta 950 is easy to hold and shoot, and hides lightly in a pocket real well.

The Universal Answer: It depends.

Every user is different. Carry guns can fill different roles.

I don't have a problem carrying airweight J-frames. A reasonable balance between size, weight, and power, and I can shoot them well enough for defensive purposes. But I can't shoot more than about 75-100 rounds at the range. Fortunately, I have no intention of getting involved in a protracted gunfight with one.

One of the reasons I switched to a Beretta PX4 Compact was that it was easier to shoot than my snub, but still light and compact enough to conceal easily.

I recently switched again to a steel 5" 1911 for a variety of reasons. Larger and harder to conceal than either my PX4 or my snub, and in-between them with regard to capacity. But I have had a few days where my hand issues extended to my index finger. I can still manipulate the guns, but a DA pull, even on my PX4, which is relatively light and smooth, is difficult. The 1911's SA trigger allows me to shoot reasonably well on those bad days.

And I still want to get a small, pocket .380 to round out my carry options for times when I want to carry gun, but can't (legal, but in a "non-permissive environment"...oooh...I can speak "tacticool"... ), and want something more discreet than my snub.

But I would say, for me, the limitations would be balancing shootability, reliability, and concealability. They exact shape of that triangle may change depending on the circumstances in which I carry a gun, so it'd be nice to have options available.

Just my opinion.

An excellent question.

First thing that must be said is it is an individual thing. No two people are alike.

So, what makes a gun too small? You can't hold it adequately to operate it. My pinky doesn't fit on the frame of my P238 or P938, but I still have no problem shooting them. Rather well, actually. But I have heard others say they can't handle a pistol without their pinky.

I have heard discussions of how too small a frame results in the finger not fitting on the trigger correctly. I'm sure that's true, but I think it is esoterica.

Too light? Recoil can't be managed. But that can be a function of ammo. My 642 is fun to shoot with 130 gr factory FMJ. It hurts with +P ammo.

One other critical aspect of small/light pistols: the smaller the gun, the tighter you need to grip it. The frame may not have enough mass to resist the recoil of the slide, making the gun into a jam-o-matic. Take reports of a small pistol not being reliable with a grain of salt; it could be the operator.

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I've still got it made.

Diamondback used to make an ultra small 11oz 9mm 6+1 pistol. (Think very slightly larger than a Ruger LCP) I sold one to a customer and he equated firing it to holding onto an M80 when it went off. He said you might get 2 shots off but beyond that your hand would be stinging sooooo bad he didn't think you could convince your trigger finger to pull the trigger again.

The current rage is for tiny pistols that are the most comfortable to carry.

Personally, I can't shoot them well and prefer large carry guns. For me, a G19 is absolute minimum and even with that I can't drop the mag on it reliably unless I change my grip. My favorite carry guns are full size 1911s or a Beretta 92.

My guess is that a lot of people that think they need a micro pistol and everything else is too big don't shoot them much. They see the benefit of them when carrying, but are pretty unaware at how much they give up when actually shooting them.

You give up nothing in carrying a small, light, gun IF you take the time to learn to shoot it well. No one knows how many actually do this, but I suspect those that think J-frame revolvers or small automatics are only good at very close distances haven't practiced with them enough to know otherwise.

Small guns are far more difficult to shoot well than bigger ones. That's not a secret. If the guns really don't shoot well beyond a few yards, or the shooter with sufficient practice can't shoot them well, then the shooter needs to look elsewhere.

You don't have to practice at 25 yards regularly if you don't want to, but that's a good distance to use for quickly determining things mentioned above. Fifteen yards or closer won't tell you much.

As an aside, I see people at a private gun club range regularly shoot handguns at 5 -15 yard yard targets, never beyond. That may be an ego booster but it won't help much in developing good shooter skill.

Please allow me a slightly different perspective.

Back in October during the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit, I had the opportunity to fire a P365 in the demonstration bay. At about 12 yards, I was able to knock down all of the plates consistently, using a 2 handed hold. The next day I ended up winning one.

Fast forward to this past weekend. I had taken possession of my P365 earlier in the week. When I went to the range, I was 3 weeks post-op from hand/arm surgery on my left arm, and 3 months post-op from surgery on my right arm, so I was forced to shoot strong hand only. I would like to think that my hand condition replicated that of your typical senior with hand strength issues. Let me preface, I had no discomfort shooting a Glock 17 strong hand.

With the P365, I had to be creative in order to rack the slide. I did experience palm discomfort, which I attribute to the post-op tenderness due to carpal tunnel surgery. I had less control of the pistol at distances beyond 15 yards. Recoil felt a little sharp.

In short, in my current condition, shooting the P365 was a bit unpleasant. I vowed to not do any extensive shooting with the little Sig until my hands toughened up. Prior to the last 2 surgeries, the little P365 was manageable. With "tenderized" hands, the little P365 would probably be viewed as too small/light a pistol for serious social encounters.

What is too small or too light really depends on the individual doing the shooting. Honestly, I don't see myself considering something smaller or lighter than the P365. However, until my hands heal, I may find that my 9mm 1911 Commander would be the smallest/lightest pistol for serious social encounters.

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Judge control not gun control!

That's good to know. I have long wished for a 9mm the size of my BG380 for pocket carry but suspect it would be unshootable, especially in my XL size hand. The little BG is very unpleasant, as was the LCP it replaced.

Well it all depends.........kind of like some folks hate IWB carry as uncomfortable.....me a 3913 in a Sparks summer special on a good Bianchi B-12 belt..... after 30 years it is a thing I quickly forget I'm wearing.

NO problem carrying a S&W PC Shorty-9 or a Beretta 92 Compact..... both 25 years old.

I started concealed carry when my options were a 21/2" 19 , Colt Commander or Browning HP...............

That said I've got a 337PD and a Colt Mustang pocket lite...... if I need ultra small and light.....

There are exceptions to everything and yours is certainly a legitimate exception.

Buy the new Ruger Max 9. Sounds about right.

All good points here. My take on it is practice, practice, practice. Smaller firearms can be as accurate as larger ones, with practice. The smallest I have is the LCP and when I first bought it I thought I threw my money away. Coming from larger firearms I had to practice a lot to get more accurate/confident with it...

When it is a carry gun, they do not get too light. Mine is an 18 oz (unloaded) 44 and I sometimes forget it is on my belt. (396)

I completely disagree. If I have to shoot someone, it is going to be at very close range. If they are at 25 yards, just how much danger are you in? Why are you shooting at all?

Seriously, you'd be much better served practicing at 3 yards, using no sights at all.

[Unless you are military or police.]

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I've still got it made.

I have 3 9MM handguns. A 365, a G17 and a RIA 1911 full size. While the 1911 is the gun I shoot best, ask me which of the other 2 is next? Hint: the g is on the end. That's right, I shoot my little 365 better than my full size Glock. All the pistols are bone stock. It depends on the individual. The Sig fits my hands better than the Glock. The other thing is that, even on a "tiny" gun I think the Sig has better sights and a better trigger. YMMV. Would I shoot the Glock better if I had better sights and a better trigger? Of course. Would I shoot it better than the Sig? I don't know. It would always be heavier and bulkier though.

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The best I can with what I got

I've thought about that, and the scenario that comes to mind is at church. After watching the video of the armed parishioner in Texas taking down the shotgun wielding shooter with a head shot at about 15 yards, I decided I might someday have to take a shot with my snub nose at more than close range. Consequently, every trip to the range since, I put a silhouette target at 25 yards and practice torso hits with my snubnose and/or my 380 Bodyguard. That's about 25 paces, or close to the distance from the front to the back pews at my church. At first, I just wanted to make sure I could make a torso hit. Now I'm working on getting the groups tighter.

I suppose there are other scenarios, but I can't think of any. And I pray that one never happens. My church seats around 175 people, but like a lot of traditional churches our congregation is old, is dying off, and attendance has shrunk to a couple dozen people. That doesn't mean we someday couldn't be a target.

You may not agree with my reasoning. Not sure it's right myself, but it is what it is. It you're thinking a snubnose isn't the best tool for that job, you'd be right. But my 30-30 doesn't conceal too well.

A couple of months ago, a co-worker and myself were discussing whether to save our current 2nd "stimulus" deposit, or go buy a new 9mm "toy". We looked at several similar small 9mm's, and I bought the 365XL, while he bought a Hellcat. In each case, the gun we picked fit our hand better, and concealed equally on our sizes and build. Both are factory fitted for reflex optics.

We looked at the Shield PLUS info yesterday after the press release, and we both felt we made the right choice when we did. We both thought the PLUS had melded a Hellcat slide to a 365 frame, with a Hellcat trigger. Sorry guys, but that is what it looks like.

The 365XL bites my hand a bit, but most of that is the aggressive checkering on the grip. 9mm in a 20oz. gun is sharp recoil, no matter what. Much like +P's in a j-frame. After I get it broken in (no misfires, shoots to POI quite well), I may put a sheet of 1000 grit in my palm and just rub it around a bit to take the points off the grip where I hold it.

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Heavily armed old man.

I TOTALLY agree with your reasoning. At least one of my J Frames goes with me everywhere when I leave the house.

When I think about a NAA 22 revolver carried IN a belt buckle, I think of talisman or rabbits foot....

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Smallest belt gun, Shield
Smallest pocket gun, LCP

Weight and grip length are most determining factors.

When I did my CCW the instructor challenged us to carry routinely so for me to carry day in day out gun needs to be light enough.


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I shoot my P938 better than my Beretta 92. Probably because I shoot it more often. Small? I carry a Seecamp .32. I shoot that better than the bodyguard I replaced with the Seecamp.

I have carried these for the last seven years and I entertain no plans for changing.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Lots of good points above. I have operated on the Clint Smith theory that a gun should be comforting, not necessarily comfortable - although UNcomfortable is not a great plan. I look at it this way - if a concealed carry gun is going to recoil so markedly that it negatively impacts my ability to hit anything more than ten feet away from me then it's the wrong gun to carry. Since I do not carry service sized pistols and revolvers that gets us to 2" J and K frame sizes in steel and CS-9 and CS-45 sized pistols.

I completely and absolutely rule out Airweights or any kind. Massad Ayoob, I think, said they should be shot a little and carried a lot. Agreed. But not shot at all is a better answer. A 22 ounce J frame is no more difficult to carry than a 14 ounce J frame in your pocket or on your belt. The 22 ounce gun will not impede a second shot or more if you need it. Therefore, all steel is the winner. YMMV

Never mind a 2" K frame, which adds another round of firepower and is way, way easier to shoot.

Since all I carry in revolvers are S&Ws I limit my discussion to them. I do have a vintage Colt Cobra and I limit its time outside to jogging and bicycling, neither of which I do any longer so that ends that discussion for me right there.

As for pistols, my personal preference presently (say that 3 times fast! ) is a compact 9mm. The CS-9 is around 23 ounces, my one polymer center fire pistol being a Walther CCP which is around 22 ounces and a 6906 weighs around 26 ounces. All of those are easily concealed and possess additional firepower if you think your 5 or 6 shot revolver won't do today.

II've thought about it, too. In that situation I carry a pistol, not a revolver, for the extra rounds and because I shoot all of the identified pistols better than my M649.

Those tiny 9mms leave me cold. Way too much bang for the buck. If I'm going to carry tiny then I need a tiny caliber. .25 ACP. .32 ACP. It jus' beez dat weigh.......

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Come and take it!!

For many years I carried a Kahr PM9. About 2 years ago I upgraded to a Sig P365. A bit larger than the single stack Kahr, but still very much doable in the front pocket in an Alabama Pocket Holster with almost twice as much ammo on board.

There are times, however, when the dress code won't even let me carry one of them, but I have not yet found it impossible to carry a KT P32. It is the gun that I carry when I cannot carry a gun, if you get my drift. It wasn't my intention, but I was once let into a venue after being wanded, and only later discovered that I had forgotten to remove the P32. (Before anyone has a hissy fit, it wasn't a place where I put my liberty at jeopardy by carrying, if I had been discovered I would have been asked to remove it or myself from the premises.)

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Only a cold warrior

The dilemma of small/ultra lite carry comfort and larger/heavier has to be balanced with suitably for intended purpose.

The little guns (j frames, Shield etc) are pretty good for across the card table. The miniatures (25 acp, NAA atrocities) are great noise makers and have utility at contact range.

The issue isn’t a debate about caliber or power: it’s the limitations of gun and shooter.

Imagine you’re in a movie theater with your gun and a fellow appears in front of the movie screen with an AR, a shotgun. or AK and starts shooting.

If all you have is one of any of these comfortable little guns, you might as well have left it at home.

If you’re carrying a Commander sized 1911 or a G19 sized gun, you have a chance of helping yourself. You can reach out.

The smallest and lightest gun i carry is my 340pd. I carry it almost 100% of the time either as a main or backup gun.

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I have no use for mouse guns. Others do and that’s fine.

We are fortunate to have many choices in carry guns. Pick what works for you.

I carry a Glock 43 year round and have no trouble concealing it.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

It does - vary. I can tell all the difference in the world between a 14 ounce J frame and a 20 ounce Shield in suit pants. I replaced the stock grips on my 642 with Uncle Mikes and the recoil from a Gold Dot 135 gr SB load is quite manageable. On the belt, no difference. In a jeans pocket, insignificant. But in lighter weight pants, the extra weight results in sagging and swinging. Maybe nobody else notices. Maybe.

On the other hand, if I really need (or want) tiny I find the Remington RM380 handles the recoil well and the locked breech makes slide manipulation easy even on the the days Arthur Itis comes to visit. Add in a reasonably smooth DAO and second strike capability and it has everything I want in a little package. I shoot the 642 better, though, so the .380 sees more time in the safe than the pocket.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Yes, longer distance makes sense for you. Your role is more like Law Enforcement. I expect to protect me; other scenarios unlikely.

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I've still got it made.

Revolver Guy that I am,
The 357 J Frames are a little frisky loaded with 357s.
I usually load them with 38 +P.
Back to the autos - I can usually keep them under control if I have enough to hold on to.
I’m mostly talking 9 mil here.
On up to the 40s, 45s, etc I want a bigger heavier gun.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I live in a small Iowa city, about 1,400 population & crime isn't a problem. If I go to the post office or Caseys to pick up a pizza I stick a Bauer 25ACP in my pocket. I can hit center mass with it out to about 7 yards which is all I need. If I go to the "big city" about 10 miles away I carry a 45 ACP

They haven't made these for 100 years, but if S&W came out with a new one, I'd get it for CC. Sometimes small is practical.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

No such thing is too small or too light. Size and weight are entirely an individual’s prerogative, mission and their ability to use it proficiently.

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213th FBINA

It's not the size that counts.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

It is too small when I can't get a good combat grip on the gun out of the holster and keep that grip while shooting. It weighs too little when recoil becomes uncomfortable for me.

It's all about how one prioritizes the compromises for handgun carry.

Concealment
Comfort
Effective gun
Effective caliber
Speed of presentation/one handed draw

Now, if you look at the order I put those, and prioritize for those conditions, a mouse gun fits the bill. If you reverse the order then a regular sized handgun is a better fit.

For me concealment is last. Concealed means 'obscured from view' not undetectable. If the muzzle is exposed when I reach for something on the top shelf, no laws have been broken and I'm not idiotic enough to seriously believe some thug will be there at that precise moment, looking in that exact direction, and decide to attack.

People prioritize concealment first for a host of reasons; shame, fear, peer pressure, lack of understanding of the law, etc. Once you figure out what's really important and why you're really carrying a deadly weapon, things become more clear. I hope I never need to use it, but if I ever do I want the best tool for the job, not some marginal compromise that sucks away all my confidence.

Well my thoughts and preferences are mine and mine alone and sharing them will not change anyone's mind so I shall leave them unsaid-I will say this, experience in my profession indicates that if you shoot someone at more than bad breath distance you better lawyer up and be prepared to spend some money and have your life upended and that is for a good outcome.

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Forum consigliere

I agree with the short range deal unless the other guy happens to have a rifle, then your pretty much screwed in the range department no matte what hand gun your packing. I have a selection of alloy big bores and though they took some getting used to I am now comfortable with them at 10 yds or a bit more. I recently picked up a alloy J frame 32 H&R and II think it will be a good pocket gun.

I don’t think I would go smaller than my 37 or 442. I can carry them as easy as a NAA Mini and can shoot them way better.

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Two Handguns every day