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  #51  
Old 03-20-2021, 01:54 PM
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CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners?  
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Naturally those who despise the Second Amendment also see the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments as "impediments" to effective government action on guns.
No they don't. And the 10th Amendment has posed no barrier for them at all.

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  #52  
Old 03-20-2021, 09:10 PM
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I'm sure there are people that got a CCW permit before they even owned a firearm, so in that sense the CCW permit proves nothing other than getting a CCW permit.
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:35 PM
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Please share with us the name of the Government Agency that doesn’t keep “a list”.
No government agency keeps a list. If there were such a list I guarantee you I would have been compelled to check it prior to turning in an arrest plan.

If some President asked for a list of American gun owners, he/she would be handed the most recent census and be told - here’s most of them.
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:42 PM
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Nope. Been filling out the FAFSA for my kids for years now. FAFSA lets you auto download your tax records to FAFSA. Never been asked for a credit card, and while they do ask for a cell number, I'm pretty sure they didn't care whose name it was in. And nobody can access actual tax records online. If they could, I would have been able to. I had to fax a request, with a release signed by the taxpayer, and wait about a month, and then I might get a transcript. There is no "gov't list," except for the one in China with all my security clearance background investigations within, especially that's in any way easily accesible. Still getting free credit protection, though . . .

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
If you register with the IRS to access your tax records online, they validate who you are in real-time using a mobile or landline phone number that has to be registered to you and a credit card that's in your name. In real-time. People debating about government lists are about 10 years (or more) too late.
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  #55  
Old 03-20-2021, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
No government agency keeps a list.

If some President asked for a list of American gun owners, he/she would be handed the most recent census and be told - here’s most of them.
Since the list of the census they have probably doesn't have names attached to it, I call BS . . .
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:25 PM
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Nope. Been filling out the FAFSA for my kids for years now. FAFSA lets you auto download your tax records to FAFSA. Never been asked for a credit card, and while they do ask for a cell number, I'm pretty sure they didn't care whose name it was in. And nobody can access actual tax records online. If they could, I would have been able to. I had to fax a request, with a release signed by the taxpayer, and wait about a month, and then I might get a transcript. There is no "gov't list," except for the one in China with all my security clearance background investigations within, especially that's in any way easily accesible. Still getting free credit protection, though . . .
Don’t know about FAFSA, but your part about accessing your tax record isn’t correct.

Go to irs.gov and click on “Get Your Tax Record”. After you register you have online access to your last three years (IIRC) tax records/transcripts. I’ve needed to use it the last couple years.

In order to register you need a credit card and a phone that are registered to your name, along with some other info about your last return (ssn, address of last return, filing status). They don’t charge your credit card. They just use it to validate who you are.
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  #57  
Old 03-21-2021, 07:19 AM
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Again, those are transcripts . . .

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Don’t know about FAFSA, but your part about accessing your tax record isn’t correct.

Go to irs.gov and click on “Get Your Tax Record”. After you register you have online access to your last three years (IIRC) tax records/transcripts. I’ve needed to use it the last couple years.

In order to register you need a credit card and a phone that are registered to your name, along with some other info about your last return (ssn, address of last return, filing status). They don’t charge your credit card. They just use it to validate who you are.
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  #58  
Old 03-21-2021, 07:25 AM
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Heck. You google a cheesecake recipe and for the next two weeks you get all kinds of cheesecake spam. If they want to know about you, they will. Get your CCW so you don't run afoul of the law.
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  #59  
Old 03-21-2021, 07:48 AM
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I’m proud to have a CPL. A lot of people are ineligible, because of their past actions and lifestyle.

As a demographic, CPL holders are one of the most law abiding groups in the US. Law enforcement has plenty of real threats to deal with and we’re not one of them.
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:02 AM
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Garcia of the FBI's BAU can find anything on anyone in like 1 minute. She does it several times on every episode of Criminal Minds.
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  #61  
Old 03-21-2021, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
Sort of. If the gun shop has closed and they sent their 4473's to the ATF. I haven't bought any guns in MN, so I'm not a 4473 here.

Here's an interesting read on how the ATF's Out of Business Records Center works. Never mind the anti-gun slant in the story, the article and accompanying video offers a lot of insight into the tracing process . . .

Inside The Federal Bureau Of Way Too Many Guns | GQ
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  #62  
Old 03-21-2021, 02:06 PM
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I am a veteran and a DoD civilian employee. When I was hired I had to take the oath again. You know “To protect and defend the constitution.........”. I also had to pass multiple background checks.

If the Fed or anyone else wants to find me they won’t have to look very hard. Even with the Privacy Act and Hipaa Law it’s not that difficult.

So I don’t worry about it. My desire to defend myself and loved ones with a firearm legally is far more important than being traced, tracked, followed or found.

It’s a non issue.
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  #63  
Old 03-21-2021, 06:04 PM
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There are a lot of ways such information can be collected and misused. You think the average google user is secure? Heck no. My wife finally convinced me to give up Chrome for most uses because of it. I see a lot of clearly cookie driven ad crud on Chrome, more than any other browser. I have quit (far too late) reading gun forum stuff on Chrome. Magazine subscription lists are often bought/sold. With a modest bit of research, your views on a lot of things can be discerned. That's putting aside the whole generation who simply cannot avoid FB, Twitter, Instagram and other more common social media. Look at the number of dullards who get arrested because the post some kind of stupid stuff about their criminality.

Big banks will give up a lot of information - especially credit card use. All kinds of data conglomeration companies are out there, and they get all sorts of stuff. What most of us consider "personal privacy" is long dead. I do public records stuff for my office and research and teach for the county as a whole on that topic. I have been appalled at what we have to give out.

Getting a carry license is no more of a risk than any of this other stuff, and it has a real benefit. I virtually never leave my home unarmed. I can't imagine doing so. My education/training/socialization in firearms use simply does not accept any excuse for being unarmed unless I am going into a federal courthouse or some other really odd place.
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  #64  
Old 03-21-2021, 06:30 PM
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You guys have to invert your perspective. The days of hiding personal information are past. You don't want to hide that you own 20 guns. You want info out there on all 1,235,450 guns you own.

They have terrabytes of storage. It's our job to fill it up. Got two homes? You should make sure there are thousands of different addresses online for you.
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Old 03-21-2021, 07:36 PM
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Is that the “list” kept on the FBI commodore 64 network?


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That would be the one.

I've had a permit for 30 years and never had my door kicked in.

I know, they'll be coming eventually but it's sure taking them a long time to get here.
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Old 03-22-2021, 09:26 PM
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I know, they'll be coming eventually but it's sure taking them a long time to get here.
Yep. And they still ain’t coming.

It’s not like this hasn’t happened before. We had the National Firearms Act, GCA 68, and an AWB.

If the absolute worst happens and “assault weapons” are banned and not grandfathered, there will be a turn-‘em-in period. Most owners will comply.

Then the fun begins. You’ll have your AR, you can give it hugs in the basement, but don’t take it to the range, don’t have a house fire, don’t make anyone who knows about it mad.

No one will kick in your door (at least not while you’re home). They don’t want a confrontation. While you’re at work your stuff will be seized, and maybe you’ll get cuffed and stuffed at work or on the way home.

If you avoid the above, when you croak your kids can decide what to do. Most likely they will not want to risk the felony and turn it in. It is happening now with WW2 Schmeissers old grandad brought home.

No WW3. No boogaloo. No blood of tyrants watering that liberty tree.

I personally don’t think it will happen. But if it does, it will happen the way it’s worked before.

No list required.
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Old 03-22-2021, 11:21 PM
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I wished we had a gun registry when I got married. Would have been nice to get a few new guns instead of toaster ovens and hand towels.
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Old 04-15-2021, 05:43 PM
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With the advent of IPhones and computers I just assume I’m on somebody’s list somewhere for something so I just quit worrying about it unless I prefer to live underground and never buy anything again.
I will say that if the OP does ever use his gun he’s carrying without a permit, he WILL be on a list and probably never legally be able carry a gun
after the fact.
Sometimes you have to pick your battles.
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Old 04-15-2021, 05:53 PM
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In my state, we already have a registry.....it's called the phone book
That book doesn't equate anyone to gun ownership
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Old 04-15-2021, 08:30 PM
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That book doesn't equate anyone to gun ownership
I think he means everyone has a gun.
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Old 04-15-2021, 08:32 PM
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I think he means everyone has a gun.


Over my head I guess!
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Old 04-15-2021, 10:23 PM
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I had a couple of licensed Kayaks. Every time I would go plinking on the river, the kayak would roll over I would lose a gun. I ran out of guns and so I sold the Kayaks
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Old 04-16-2021, 08:19 AM
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I figure if they start coming to get all the guns the country is totally FUBARed and it will take them some time and bodies to get to my location. They had enough problems in Iraq, they sure won't like Montana.
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:43 AM
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NSA knows everything you do, including what you buy, no matter how you pay, unless it's cash...
NSA has the technology to know everything about me, but lacks the interest. Under the radar. Waaaay under.

Heck, Big Bother can't, or doesn't, even identify genuine risks for crazy mass murderers.
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Old 04-16-2021, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by johngalt View Post

MN is a duty to retreat state, so the you are in much more legal jeopardy than in a lot of other states. One benefit of having it is it bypasses the requirement to get a purchase permit to buy a pistol here.
OK, especially in the day of the cell phone video, retreating-or attempting to-can be a good thing. Avoiding a confrontation beats the dickens out of the legal aftermath of self defense. As can finding a better place for any confrontation to happen.

I don't understand your belief that the duty to retreat-which has existed in a public place since our ancestors were literally owned by people they had to address as My Lord/Lady-bypasses any state requirement to obtain a purchase permit.

Get the flipping permit. If you're on this/any website, Leviathan can find you.

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Old 04-16-2021, 08:09 PM
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NSA has the technology to know everything about me, but lacks the interest. Under the radar. Waaaay under.
I suspect the NSA thinks, Oh no, not him again when they see my media traffic.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:07 PM
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I had a couple of licensed Kayaks. Every time I would go plinking on the river, the kayak would roll over I would lose a gun. I ran out of guns and so I sold the Kayaks
Hope you reported them missing within 24 hours or you could have a real problem.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:14 PM
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I had a couple of licensed Kayaks. Every time I would go plinking on the river, the kayak would roll over I would lose a gun. I ran out of guns and so I sold the Kayaks
As a former scuba diver who did a lot of diving in the rivers, I can verify that there is a lot of truth in the boat accident stories.
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Old 04-16-2021, 10:04 PM
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I don't worry about registries. Everything anyone ever would want to know has already been taken from your electronic devices and stored somewhere.

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Old 04-17-2021, 08:24 AM
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You “Think” your not on a list ?
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  #81  
Old 04-17-2021, 03:10 PM
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CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners? CCW can be used as a registry of gun owners?  
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Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
Doing the CCW training here is still on the TODO list, but given the current environment, I'm questioning the wisdom of getting a license. My concern is it is a list of gun owners.

MN is a duty to retreat state, so the you are in much more legal jeopardy than in a lot of other states. One benefit of having it is it bypasses the requirement to get a purchase permit to buy a pistol here.

I'm weighing the probability of actually needing it (very low) vs. the consequences of being on a gun banner's list (severe?).

Too bad there is no constitutional carry here, and we are unlikely to ever get it.
Fortunately for us Patriots in PA we don't have a CCW, instead it's call a LTCF(License to Carry a Firearm).

I think we're in the clear, but really, no we're not either.

I'm sure our Founders were on some kind of list too so we're in good company.

Kobsw
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  #82  
Old 04-17-2021, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by haywood View Post
You “Think” your not on a list ?
I spent my college years trying to explain to my parents that yes, I was on the Dean’s List, but not the one they thought. Me and the Dean were on a first name basis . . .
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  #83  
Old 04-17-2021, 08:10 PM
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I spent my college years trying to explain to my parents that yes, I was on the Dean’s List, but not the one they thought. Me and the Dean were on a first name basis . . .
"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son."

I live in Massachusetts. Everyone in the state is on a list someplace. I'm not really worried. The people running things can't figure out how to make the train go from South Station to Government Ctr. with any type of regularity. The RMV is so screwed up that no one has been able to get their car inspected for the last couple of months. The State Police are in crisis mode. I don't have a lot of confidence that they could organize an operation as big as going to the homes of the million and a half known gun owners to look for their guns. They sent a letter to everyone who has a LTC or FID telling them that bump stocks are illegal and must be turned into the police. So far, two have been turned in. That leads me to believe that voluntary compliance would be a little spotty. I'm not a needle in a haystack, I'm a needle in a stack of needles here. Good luck finding me. Get your carry permit. If it gets that things have devolved to the point that they are going door to door for anything, then we have pretty much come off the rails and not much is going to matter.

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  #84  
Old 04-17-2021, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
"Fat, dumb and stupid is no way to go through life son."
Not sure what you’re quoting. In Animal House, Dean Wormer told Dorfman “ Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son . . . “
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:45 PM
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Not sure what you’re quoting. In Animal House, Dean Wormer told Dorfman “ Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son . . . “
I've seen it so many times I forgot it!
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:47 PM
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In Florida, it’s illegal to use the CCW as a gun registry, but when did the law ever stop a criminal.
In this case the criminal would be the government.
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Old 04-17-2021, 09:30 PM
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People worry needlessly about being on a list or in a database for gun ownership. By the time it takes the feds to sort through just the Form 4473s they have from gun stores that have gone out of business (not even the ones from the shops still open) we will be debating how many gigawatts your handheld laser can legally emit before it is considered a military-grade weapon!

Frankly, if gun control were really the feds ultimate goal they would slowly regulate and legislate ammunition production and sales to the point of extinction; either that or get the private insurance industry involved by requiring liability insurance like you have on an automobile. If you have no ammunition or can't afford to own a gun the end result is still the same - and no master list or database needed.

Well, this is exactly what they will be attempting to do. Just look up Shiela Jackson's bills she is trying to get into the House.
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Old 04-17-2021, 09:51 PM
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If you ever bought any ammo or gun parts or guns with a cc. Posted picture on forums of guns or you shooting , they already know. No need to be paranoid.
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Old 04-17-2021, 11:25 PM
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In the 1980's, we had a series of satellites that were designed to detect a sudden burst of radiation so that we would know the Russians were violating the atmospheric test ban treaty and could have the UN send them the patented "Sternly Worded Letter". Then, in 1986, employees at the Barsebek Nuclear Station in Sweden started setting off the portal radiation monitors as they ENTERED the plant. Humm... strange.

The meteorologists started tracking the winds aloft and found, given the wind direction and speed, that the radiation could have come from a place in the Ukraine - Chernobyl. Our spy satellite wienies went back and looked at their data, and sure enough, Chernobyl lit up like a house afire. The excuse? Well, it seems. there was just too much data coming in to analyze in a timely fashion.
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Old 04-18-2021, 12:41 AM
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Default NICS check.....

Anyone that doesn't believe they have kept a copy of every NICS check ever performed is fooling themselves.

Ned
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Old 04-18-2021, 02:22 PM
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Anyone who accessed the S&W Forum would be identifiable as a gun owner most probably. (Or any other shooting Forum).
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Old 04-19-2021, 11:27 AM
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Not necessarily.....
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
I have heard that in some states, the CCW permit is linked to and allows the bearer to only carry the firearms specified on their permit.
The Oklahoma Handgun License specifies the type of handgun that the owner is allowed to carry, whether it is one, two, or all of the following: Semi-Automatic, Revolver, Derringer. The type is determined by the firearm that was used to qualify during training.

With Open carry, it seems to be a moot point.
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Old 04-20-2021, 11:07 AM
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Anyone that doesn't believe they have kept a copy of every NICS check ever performed is fooling themselves.

Ned
I don't think they are. I worked for a small gov't agency (3000 employees) for 30 years and even with the tech they had available they couldn't keep records archived in any retrievable format. The fail is 100 times worse with the federal government. If they can't keep up with the background checks how do you suppose they would have the resources to archive all of those records?

My feeling is the fed doesn't want the headache nor the expenses unless it's mandated by congress. In this case it's absolutely and specifically forbidden by law.

Quote:
(iii) In cases of NICS Audit Log records relating to allowed transactions, all identifying information submitted by or on behalf of the transferee will be destroyed within 24 hours after the FFL receives communication of the determination that the transfer may proceed. All other information, except the NTN and date, will be destroyed after not more than 90 days from the date of inquiry.
28 CFR SS 25.9 - Retention and destruction of records in the system. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

I had a situation that proved this. CMP ran a BC on me for a pistol right before they shut down for covid. It was delayed. When they came back to work they passed me by because the BC results couldn't be retrieved by the CMP. NICS had no record of it either. CMP had to run the BC again which was against their policy but they did it anyway.
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Last edited by LostintheOzone; 04-20-2021 at 11:43 AM.
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